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PRmerger
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Bwahahahahahaha!
If so, then the Lutherans have caused hemolytic uremic syndrome in not a few people.
Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?
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If so, then the Lutherans have caused hemolytic uremic syndrome in not a few people.
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PRmerger
Guest
Except that you, like millions of Protestants, are indignant about something that doesnāt exist.
Itās like a Muslim being intellectually indignant because Christians worship 3 gods.
What he is objecting to is a figment of his own imagination. Christianity does not proclaim belief in 3 gods. The Muslim is attacking a straw man.
Just like you are. You have no need to be offended that the Church has anathemized you.
Now, on to other objections of Catholicism that you have?
(We have already dismissed your objection on infallibility. And Sacred Tradition. And authority. You submit to the Churchās authority as it applies to the canon.)
Well, I am glad that I have been able to correct your misapprehension. The Council of Trent could not have been addressing second generation Protestants, for it could not have foreseen the development of this gross obscenity of the fracturing into thousands and thousands of Christian denominations.
And even if you interpret it that way (and thereās nothing that would prompt anyone to interpret it that way, save the desire to remain indignant), the CC clears up any misunderstanding through the Catechism paragraph previously referenced.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. I believe that theological discussion/argumentation is fulfilling the Scriptural mandate to love God with our entire MIND. We wrestle with our understanding of God in order to know Him more profoundly and love Him more deeply.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:37[/BIBLEDRB]
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Attejohannes
Guest
Regarding the heresies, I think we can mutually consider each other as ones.
In that Marcan story, nobody decided. John was indignantly making fuss, that someone that was not a diciple, was performing exorcisms in the name of Jesus ( in a way usurping the authority of Jesus). The reply of our Lord was that this action did not bother Him. If this man performs powerful deeds in the name of Jesus, he at least is not against Christ. You may read the story yourself.
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Attejohannes
Guest
Just about my motivation to write on a Catholic website, while I disgree with Catholicism. I have āreligiouslyā avoided posting anything in forums, where Catholics discuss their Faith. The topic of this Forum is " Non-Catholic religions", and I thought it only constructive that a Protestant ( and coming from a bit different background than my American sisters and brothers) presents his views. It makes in my mind no sense, if only Catholics would exchanges here their guesses, what these Protestants actually think.I hope you don;t take that as a personal affront. I ask it to a lot of people.
It is a curious phenomena to me that people come to a Catholic forum to disagree with Catholicism.
I appreciate your participation.
Yes, I understand your point. However, I find you position contrary to Scripture, and the intentions of Jesus expressed within.
It can, but not all debate is unproductvive. I can assure you that I have changed many of my ideas and attitudes through the process of theological argumentation here on CAF, and I know many other members that have as well. Perhaps you are not willing to examine or grapple with your own, for the benefite of changing any that might be erroneous, and that is your perogative, of course.
I will respect that this is your personal experience. It is not shared by most of us on CAF. Most of us are open to a better understanding of truth, and we find that theological debate is constructive in that process.
I do agree that He does prevail. However we have a responsibility and an Aposotlic commandment to strive toward unity in mind and Spirit. We have a commandment to have no differences in doctrine. Since the differences in doctrine and the disunity that exists emanates from the pride of humans, we have an obligation to repair the damage. We are not at liberty to sit back and expect God to fix the mess we have made without our strident participation.
The second reason is that I come from a country, in which Catholics are rate (in my whole life I have met one Finnish Catholic) and I wanted to hear a kind of authentic Catholic voice in order to check, whether Catholicism has anything to do with the doctrins and practices I learned to associate with them in my secondary School dogmatics and Church history lessons. So far it seems that the textbooks were pretty objective.
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Attejohannes
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Just a correction. I am not indignant of that anathema and really do not much care, what its interpretation nowadays is. I do not believe that my Salvation depends a jot of what the Catholic Church thinks about my status as a Christian and my limited or missing communion with it. And I, from my own part, can and do pray for you. And maybe you nowadays are allowed to listen in the coming Easter- time the fantastic Passios of Bach, although listening to protestant hymns and Church music was one time forbidden for Catholics
When I spoke of the. Intellectual indignation I meant that kind of well-meaning but ignorant attitude well illustrated in the title of this thread. As If the decision to mend the division would be for us to take. As I pointed out earlier, we have not come closer to each other during these 500 years, but drifted further apart. And undoubtedly this development just continuesā¦
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Attejohannes
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Yes and no. We can agree to be kind and courteous with regard to our differences, but we are not at liberty to ignore them, and Catholics are not at liberty to avoid working to overcome them. We are compelled by the Apostolic commandments and the prayers of Jesus to eliminate these.
Well, in the Epistle to Titus St Paul exhorts Titus to avoid heretics after warning them once or twice. For pagans and religiously indifferent people we are called to present our testimony. Of Heretics we are asked not to be too concerned.
Well, in the Epistle to Titus St Paul exhorts Titus to avoid heretics after warning them once or twice. For pagans and religiously indifferent people we are called to present our testimony. Of Heretics we are asked not to be too concerned.
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TexanKnight
Guest
One thing that always had me scratching my head about Martin Luther (and I grew up Lutheranā¦had scholarships to two Lutheran Colleges)ā¦
How arrogant can a man be? He grew up KNOWING God had started the Catholic Church. I do not deny that there were abuses by those in authorityā¦but to just leave and start your own church and think God will be ok with it is pretty odd.
āGod, I dislike what your church has become so I am gonna go start my ownā¦ā
How arrogant can a man be? He grew up KNOWING God had started the Catholic Church. I do not deny that there were abuses by those in authorityā¦but to just leave and start your own church and think God will be ok with it is pretty odd.
āGod, I dislike what your church has become so I am gonna go start my ownā¦ā
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Attejohannes
Guest
What to someone is arrogance is heroism to another. Had Luther given up his cause against his conscience, not out of conviction but out of fear of consequences ( loss of life, limb or livelihood) he would not have been a better Catholic but a really despisable man.
And because God so willed that Luther was not burned, He apparently had uses for this type of man.
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TexanKnight
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Heroism to believe you are better than God? Heroism to believe that know better than God?
Odd.
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PRmerger
Guest
Please provide your source for this, Atte. Something, of course, from the Magisterium.
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Karen107
Guest
I try my best to be in harmony with people of all religions thatās what we are supposed to be as Christians. But I always am flabbergasted when I come across so many websites that are blatently against the Catholic church and I know when things are way off the truth. I mean itās like sorting out falsities in order to find the truth. Everytime I encounter a conversation talking about beliefs, I hear the same arguments from non-Catholics who have a blind eye to our beliefs and usually are attacking the church because they depend on scripture alone and theyāre taught something against the church and I have to think WHY do that? But itās seen during other Christian worship services, canāt miss it on the TV, Christian TV preachers telling people religion is bad, churches arenāt needed, in music, etc. Getting into debates have caused me to learn more about the scriptures, their origins, and the church so thatās good but I always remember look to reliable Catholic resources for information.
Sometimes thatās the best way to approach is to just not talk about things where there may be controversy (knowing where the differences exist). Service work together and believing in Jesus, and prayer for each otherā¦But once you know the truth, itās impossible to believe any other way or become part of another religion and Iāve seen the truth in the Catholic church and I always continue to learn more.
Sometimes thatās the best way to approach is to just not talk about things where there may be controversy (knowing where the differences exist). Service work together and believing in Jesus, and prayer for each otherā¦But once you know the truth, itās impossible to believe any other way or become part of another religion and Iāve seen the truth in the Catholic church and I always continue to learn more.
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RocketRM
Guest
Odd is rightā¦ Thatās not heroism - thatās delusions of grandeur.
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hn160
Guest
What do you think that the Roman Church would be like today, if the Reformation hadnāt taken place or Luther hadnāt challenged the Church on abuses. Such as noble families buying Bishoperics for their sons, Archbishop of Mainz comes to mind, priest not properly trained, selling of indulgences, just to name some. By the way, I have been a Catholic Church and their hymnal had Lutherās A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.
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Attejohannes
Guest
This discussion is really drifted away from the title of the thread. In a way it has, however, been good, since we now see that the gap that separates us is real and it is - ironically now greater than it was in the 16 th century ( Catholics having now three more Dogmas for us protestants to disagree with).
I understand very well that this is a predominantly Catholic discussion forum. It has also become clear for me that the Catholic standpoint, as it was taught in the dogmatics and Church history curriculum in my very Lutheran home country in the 1960ā ies, was true, balanced and still accurate. The Catholics see the return of protestants and Eastern orthodox Churches.back to Catholicism as the goal of any ecumenism.
And I understand the internal logic - no need to explain it again. If the Catholic Church in its totality is seen as the Guardian of the truth, and its doctrins and practices as perfect, then the less perfect denominations have to comply with them. Perfectly clear.
And when we protestants disagree in all the major points ( Church, Pope, Infallibility etc) then there are really no realistic grounds to expect any great reunion in the foreseeable future.
The latest turn in the discussion ( was Luther a megalomaniac, arrogant lunatic or hero ) further demonstrates the impossibility of us to reach any common ground on which even to try to built something like an unity.
Neither have I heard any suggestions from the Catholic side, how in practice, Christianity should be united. Instead, my own insignificant Person has got much more attention than I deserve. And I have had to explain my doctrinal stand in such a detail that it really has been a personal education for someone, who is a biotechnology Professor and not a Theology Professor. Thank you for that.
I do not think that I have any more to say on this particular topic. I finish now, and since it is Late, follow the instructions of Martin Luther by saying: " My Heavenly Father. I thank You in the name of Your Son Jesus Christ for protecting me even today. Please, forgive my sins, everything that I have done wrong today. Send your Holy Angel to protect me so that the evil enemy should not get any power over my body or soul. Hear me through your Son Jesus Christ. Amen.
And then to sound sleep!
I understand very well that this is a predominantly Catholic discussion forum. It has also become clear for me that the Catholic standpoint, as it was taught in the dogmatics and Church history curriculum in my very Lutheran home country in the 1960ā ies, was true, balanced and still accurate. The Catholics see the return of protestants and Eastern orthodox Churches.back to Catholicism as the goal of any ecumenism.
And I understand the internal logic - no need to explain it again. If the Catholic Church in its totality is seen as the Guardian of the truth, and its doctrins and practices as perfect, then the less perfect denominations have to comply with them. Perfectly clear.
And when we protestants disagree in all the major points ( Church, Pope, Infallibility etc) then there are really no realistic grounds to expect any great reunion in the foreseeable future.
The latest turn in the discussion ( was Luther a megalomaniac, arrogant lunatic or hero ) further demonstrates the impossibility of us to reach any common ground on which even to try to built something like an unity.
Neither have I heard any suggestions from the Catholic side, how in practice, Christianity should be united. Instead, my own insignificant Person has got much more attention than I deserve. And I have had to explain my doctrinal stand in such a detail that it really has been a personal education for someone, who is a biotechnology Professor and not a Theology Professor. Thank you for that.
I do not think that I have any more to say on this particular topic. I finish now, and since it is Late, follow the instructions of Martin Luther by saying: " My Heavenly Father. I thank You in the name of Your Son Jesus Christ for protecting me even today. Please, forgive my sins, everything that I have done wrong today. Send your Holy Angel to protect me so that the evil enemy should not get any power over my body or soul. Hear me through your Son Jesus Christ. Amen.
And then to sound sleep!
Why do you presume to read the manās heart, a man you never met by 500 years?
Is this presumption a form of arrogance on your part?
Citation for the quote please. Or, are you presuming to put words in his mouth?
Jon
PS Interestingly, I am a graduate of one of the 2 Lutheran colleges in Texas.
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PRmerger
Guest
I will send you nightmares unless you provide the Magisterial source that declares that listening to protestant hymns and Church music was one time forbidden.
(Kiddingāsometimes humor doesnāt translate over the internet, and over cultures.
)But I do want that source!
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TexanKnight
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TexanKnight
Guest
Why do you presume to read the manās heart, a man you never met by 500 years?
Is this presumption a form of arrogance on your part?
One may judge a man by his actions. He was in the Church Jesus started. He started one with HIS nameā¦do the math
C
Jon
PS Interestingly, I am a graduate of one of the 2 Lutheran colleges in Texas.
Cool. I had scholarships to Texas Lutheran College in Seguin and to Concordia in Austin. Back then, Concordia was a 2-year school.
I wonder how many times āA Mighty Fortressā was played and sung at a Catholic Mass prior to Vatican II.I will send you nightmares unless you provide the Magisterial source that declares that listening to protestant hymns and Church music was one time forbidden.
(Kiddingāsometimes humor doesnāt translate over the internet, and over cultures.
But I do want that source!
Except, of course, on the eve of All Saints Day, when, Iām sure, it is used every year.
Jon
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