Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[Ridgerunner]

What do you think that the Roman Church would be like today, if the Reformation hadn’t taken place or Luther hadn’t challenged the Church on abuses. Such as noble families buying Bishoperics for their sons, Archbishop of Mainz comes to mind, priest not properly trained, selling of indulgences, just to name some. By the way, I have been a Catholic Church and their hymnal had Luther’s A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.

No one knows of course. One might reasonably suspect that there wouldn’t be tens of thousands of Christian sects all claiming to be the only one in possession of the truth.

I think that hymn is in a great number of Catholic hymnals, and it isn’t the only “Protestant” hymn in there either. As a Catholic, I will say that I grew up in a time and place when (rather more Fundamentalist) hymns were on the radio all the time. And, of course, there were the TV shows like the Ozark Jubilee, on which there were lots of those hymns. I grew to like some of them, and like them still.

When I was a kid, I was at least somewhat sympathetic with Fundamentalism, though I had no thought to join those churches. Possibly it was because, back then and here, the “mainline” protestant churches were socially dominant, while we Catholics and the Fundamentalists were equally “dumped on”. Some of those country Fundamentalists were outcasts even more than we were, like the ones in which the girls never cut their hair and wore dresses down to their ankles and the boys always refused to be called by any kind of nickname. Those things set them apart, while we looked just like the “mainliners”.

Lutherans were a cut below Presbyterians, Methodists and Episcopalians, but a smidgeon above the Southern Baptists, socially.

All of that has changed. Mainline denominations are dying out around here. Fundamentalists, Southern Baptists (there’s overlap between Fundamentalists and So. Baptists) and the newer Evangelicals are gaining ascendancy as are Catholics (the latter for reasons other than religion as such). LCMS Lutherans are kind of an “ethnic church” here. If you’re not German or Scandinavian, you might be ECLA, but you probably aren’t Lutheran at all in this part of the country.

Catholics in this Bible Belt part of the country used to be thought of as an “ethnic church” (Polish, Irish, German) too, but not any more because a lot of Fundamentalists and Southern Baptists (again, not entirely distinct from one another) have converted to Catholicism, and they’re nearly all Scots-Irish.

And, of course, the influx of former Fundamentalists and Southern Baptists makes the old “radio hymns” more popular with the congregations than they once were or could possibly have been, a few decades ago.

 

[PRmerger]

I wonder how many times “A Mighty Fortress” was played and sung at a Catholic Mass prior to Vatican II.

I wonder, too.

Does this mean that listening to all Protestant hymns was forbidden?

Except, of course, on the eve of All Saints Day, when, I’m sure, it is used every year.

Jon

I don’t know what this means!

 

[pablope]

What do you think that the Roman Church would be like today, if the Reformation hadn’t taken place or Luther hadn’t challenged the Church on abuses. Such as noble families buying Bishoperics for their sons, Archbishop of Mainz comes to mind, priest not properly trained, selling of indulgences, just to name some. By the way, I have been a Catholic Church and their hymnal had Luther’s A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.

A Catherine of Sienna would have come and reformed the Church…it was just a matter of time and putting one’s trust entirely in God’s will that He will act…according to his divine providence, not ours.

1 Samuel 15:22-23

22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

Of what good is the reformation if it was borne of disobedience?

And the result…thousands of denoms today.

 

[batman1973]

One may judge a man by his actions. He was in the Church Jesus started. He started one with HIS name…do the math

Except you should know as a former Lutheran, that Martin wanted to stay Catholic.( I don’t know why Catholics refuse to acknowledge this fact) He was ex-communicated. Leo apparetnly didn’t want the changes that Luther was proposing. Who knows? I do know that neither you or I were there. We don’t know the true motives of either party. We can speculate til Christ comes, and still not be right.

 

[PRmerger]

And I understand the internal logic - no need to explain it again. If the Catholic Church in its totality is seen as the Guardian of the truth, and its doctrins and practices as perfect, then the less perfect denominations have to comply with them. Perfectly clear.

Here, again, is some incorrect perceptions you have received regarding Catholicism.

She does not claim perfection.

See this from the Catechism:

825 “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real** though imperfect.**” In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: “Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.”

 

[TexanKnight]

Except you should know as a former Lutheran, that Martin wanted to stay Catholic.( I don’t know why Catholics refuse to acknowledge this fact) He was ex-communicated. Leo apparetnly didn’t want the changes that Luther was proposing. Who knows? I do know that neither you or I were there. We don’t know the true motives of either party. We can speculate til Christ comes, and still not be right.

We know he chose down a path that led to him creating his own church with his own name on it

 

[batman1973]

We know he chose down a path that led to him creating his own church with his own name on it

I suggest then that you read this:lutherquest.org/walther/articles/-400/nameLuth.htm
Martin Luther:

“I ask that my name be left silent and people not call themselves Lutheran, but rather Christians. Who is Luther? The doctrine is not mine. I have been crucified for no one. St. Paul in 1 Cor. 3:4-5 would not suffer that the Christians should call themselves of Paul or of Peter, but Christian. How should I, a poor stinking bag of worms, become so that the children of Christ are named with my unholy name? It should not be dear friends. Let us extinguish all factious names and be called Christians whose doctrine we have. The pope’s men rightly have a factious name because they are not satisfied with the doctrine and name of Christ and want to be with the pope, who is their master. I have not been and will not be a master. Along with the church I have the one general teaching of Christ who alone is our master. Matt. 23:8.”

 

[TexanKnight]

I suggest then that you read this:lutherquest.org/walther/articles/-400/nameLuth.htm

Does not change the fact that he left the Catholic Church and ended up with a Church named after himself.

Does it?

 

[TexanKnight]

I suggest then that you read this:lutherquest.org/walther/articles/-400/nameLuth.htm

and was he really called to be a monk?

and to “the question ‘Why did Luther go into the monastery?’, the reply that Luther himself gives is the most satisfactory” (Hausrath, “Luthers Leben” I, Berlin, 1904, 2, 22). He himself again, in a letter to his father, in explanation of his defection from the Old Church, writes, “When I was terror-stricken and overwhelmed by the fear of impending death, I made an involuntary and forced vow”.

But certainly, Luther was a man of God…right?

“I will curse and scold the scoundrels until I go to my grave, and never shall they hear a civil word from me. I will toll them to their graves with thunder and lightning. For I am unable to pray without at the same time cursing. If I am prompted to say: ‘hallowed be Thy name’, I must add: ‘cursed, damned, outraged be the name of the papists’. If I am prompted to say: ‘Thy Kingdom come’, I must perforce add: ‘cursed, damned, destroyed must be the papacy.’ Indeed I pray thus orally every day and in my heart without intermission” (Sammtl. W., XXV, 108).

“But they say, ‘there is fear that a rebellion may arise against the spiritual Estate’. Then the reply is ‘Is it just that souls are slaughtered eternally, that these mountebanks may disport themselves quietly’? It were better that all bishops should be murdered, and all religious foundations and monasteries razed to the ground, than that one soul should perish, not to speak of all the souls ruined by these blockheads and manikins” (Sammtl. W., XXVIII, 148).

 

[guanophore]

Anyway, I think that you confuse two types of traditions here. The people among which the various gospels, letters, apocalypses etc, circulated lived in time and space much closer to the writers and the actual events than the later gnerations. They could, using their quite natural qualities distinguish something that sounded real and truthful from something that was fanciful, contained information that they did no trust, had detectable anachronisms etc. It is natural that we trust their testimony in this respect.

So you are saying that the discernment of the NT canon was done on the basis of human knowlege and “common sense”? You are describing a cultural artifact that is a product of human tradition.

You still have not explained why the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabas are not included. They were also used by the early Church, along with the Shepherd of Hermas.

That is quite another thing than claim that the Church, 1100, 1500  or 2000 years later have a supernatural monopoly of truth on the basis of the tradition, which certainly had proflifirated quite a lot by then.

The CC does not claim to have “supernatural monopoly of Truth”. On the contrary, the Church teaches that there are many ways that God reveals His truth to humanity.

Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church, cannot “proliferate”. That is because the contents of it are part of the once for all divine deposit of faith given to the Church by the Apostles. This public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle, and nothing can be added or subtracted from it.

 

[Attejohannes]

My very last posting in this thread ( and this is a promise)
Since the discussion has been shifted from the title to the abomination of the reformation, I just briefly describe the Finnish example.

The Catholic Church had its chance for 500 years in Finland, but failed to make Finns a little better than baptized ( and in many cases even unbaptized) pagans. The popular religion was a kind of shamanism, in which the saints and old pagan deities were mixed in a very strange Pantheon. We have a rich collection of folklore and early written documents witnessing that.

When the Finnish Reformators started their job, it was more like missionary work rather than evangelization. But they had also missionary zeal. Within a century the whole Bible was translated into Finnish, the first University founded to improve the standard of the clergy, the network of parishes extended to the remotest corners of the land, the chatecesis school established and later made compulsory for boys and girls before they could receive their first communion. And all this was done in a country ravaged by war and famines and by a Church having only a fraction of the wealth and resources of the previous Catholic period.

In the 18 th century there was general literacy in the country, a sound popular but non- sectarian piety ( witness the very beautiful popular songs, full of sorron for the sin, longing to Christ and trust in His mercy). The spiritual side aseiden, the Lutheran clergy pioneered also in introducing novel methods of agriculture, novel crops, medical innovations. ( vaccination against small pox).

This was the way God chose to Christianize our country. When we in 2007 celebrated the blessed memory of Mikael Agricola, Luthers’s pupil, the Reformator of Finland and Bible translator, both Church and state paid their respects to this anathemized and obstinate heretic, who by God’s singular mercy, laid the foundation of both the spiritual and material wellfare of Finland

 

[Prie_dieu]

Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

No we do not. The solution to avoid any further disunity among Christians is very simple; everyone should become Catholic.

Ad Jesum per Mariam!
Prie-dieu.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catholic Church had its chance for 500 years in Finland, but failed to make Finns a little better than baptized ( and in many cases even unbaptized) pagans.

That is sad indeed.

However, it is not an indictment of Catholicism, but perhaps an indictment of the Finnish people, and the Catholics who were sent to evangelize them.

 

[PRmerger]

My very last posting in this thread ( and this is a promise)

Also, please note that, while asked twice to provide your source, you havev never done so.

So I would like to proclaim here on this thread that it is an unsupported claim that you have made here:

And maybe you nowadays are allowed to listen in the coming Easter- time the fantastic Passios of Bach, although listening to protestant hymns and Church music was one time forbidden for Catholic.

It appears that you were, indeed, poorly instructed regarding Catholicism.

You heard someone say this nonsense, who heard another man say this, who heard another man say this, but no one ever read, “Catholics are forbidden to listen to Protestant hymns, including Bach”, in a single Church document.

 

[Karen107]

I have respect for protestants in that they really trust in Jesus and the Word quite ‘literally’ no pun intended. I had what they would term s "born again’ moment because of the ministering of a fundamentalist. Then as I became deeper in my faith in the Catholic church I realized more of the errors in their fundamentalists beliefs, I became greatly bothered because of all their attacks on what Catholics practice and beliefs which I know to be proper, but still I remember that evangelizing moment that I had because of a fundamentalist and of course Jesus.

I have a sister who left the Catholic church and became a born again fundamentalist. She felt she wasn’t encouraged in her beliefs as a young person and didn’t learn anything, certainly not scripture which to a fundamentalist IS God if I could put it that way. I didn’t learn much either but I knew God was watching over us and we prayed at home and at church. We were born in 1959 and 1960 on the cusp of Vat II, maybe that had something to do with it. I’ve turned to my sister for prayer and soliste at times because at least she, more than my other siblings, can help me in my spritual needs because she in not afraid to help me from a spiritual perspective, but she will usually turn to the Word to do it. True, she can’t help me from a Catholic spiritual perspective, that’s off her radar, but we can share a lot in common spiritually.

What I’m saying is Catholics may have something to learn from Protestants. When we debate scripture we learn a lot about scripture. I know I have but Like I said before I turn to Catholic resources for meaning. We shouldn’t be so proud that we only find fault in their goings on rather than good. And that we should recognize their fortitude, courage and enthusiasm in proclaiming the gospels to the world and incorporate some of that into our daily lives. Having the spirit of St. Paul so to speak. Maybe then they would also respect us more as Christians who have something truthful and positive to proclaim.

I have this scripture embedded into my heart. In times like this I accentuate the word WORLD because God came for all of us, not just Catholics, or Lutherans, but for all of us.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

 

[PRmerger]

What I’m saying is Catholics may have something to learn from Protestants.

Indeed.

Protestant love for Scripture is to be commended. Would that all Catholics shared this love!

And Protestants (generally) put Catholics to shame when it comes to welcoming people into their churches. Most of the time when I go to Mass I wonder, “Why does everyone look so mad???” :sad_yes:

But as for the Protestant pot luck? Not so much. They can take their 3-bean salads. I’ll take a hearty Catholic tuna casserole any time!

 

[RickDecker]

That is sad indeed.

However, it is not an indictment of Catholicism, but perhaps an indictment of the Finnish people, and the Catholics who were sent to evangelize them.

And you know this from your extensive knowledge of Finnish religious history?

 

[RickDecker]

No we do not. The solution to avoid any further disunity among Christians is very simple; everyone should become -]Catholic/-] Lutheran.

Ad Jesum per Mariam!
Prie-dieu.

FYP. You see where this thread has gotten? No where.

 

[Porknpie]

What I’m saying is Catholics may have something to learn from Protestants. When we debate scripture we learn a lot about scripture. .

I agree completely. I’ve said the before, the questions and answers on CAF has deepened my Catholic faith and I have Protestants in part to thank for this through their participation on this forum…I’ve also learned a little about them too…

Love and charity,

Pork
(Free coffee this morning as I am in an Ann Arbor hotel. :coffeeread: Go Blue)

 

[cargills112]

i think we both can catholics and protestants work together for a common goal