Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[CopticChristian]

Ok, I freely admit that I’m going to give you a horrible answer and I hope JonNC comes and saves me.

As I understand it, Lutherans usually say that it is God who finds us and saves us. For us, the idea that we have any part in our initial salvation seem far fetched - we say we should be gratified at that God has moved us in his direction.
The idea being that we have no free will for things that are above us (salvation), but we do have free will for things below us (choosing what pie to eat for dessert) - and if we have free will, we only have just enough free will to rebel against salvation.

As I understand it, the Catholic church teaches, in certain respect, that man cooperates with his salvation from the start - that it’s his joyous free will walks him into church to be freely baptized.

Now… I’m a prideful bugger from the start, so the Lutheran view goes against my nature. If left to my own wits, I would be in (what I think is) the Catholic camp.I don’t like the idea that I didn’t find God. I want to think that I presented myself to him for his love. But the Lutheran understanding also frees me from stressing about why I didn’t find God earlier, and oddly, it frees me from having to worry about why other people are not Christian and if God will save them - it is his will, and such a kind and loving will at that, that he chose to offer me salvation that I don’t fear for those that aren’t obviously Christian.

Again, I crave your understanding in that I’m most likely I’m wrong in this.

Ben,

Are you sure you are not Catholic…the Universal Catechism is a framework and the Adult Catechism of the USA says this…

People have always asked fundamental questions: Who am I? Where did I come from? Where am I going? Why do I need to struggle to achieve my goals? Why is it so hard to love and be loved? What is the meaning of sickness, death, and evil? What will happen after death?

These questions relate to human existence. They also move one to ask questions about the divine because they pertain to God’s existence. When asked with ever deeper reflection, they uncover an inner sense of longing for God. They challenge our minds, but the mind’s answers are not always sufficient. We must also become aware of the mysterious yearning of the human heart.

God has planted in every human heart the hunger and longing for the infinite, for nothing less than God. St. Augustine, a theologian from the fifth century, said it best: “Our heart is restless until it rests in you” (St. Augustine, The Confessions, bk. 1, chap. 1, 1; cf. CCC, no. 30).

How is our quest for God awakened? **God first pursues us; this spurs us to search for him for whom we were made. **The Catechism presents three paths through which every person can come to God: creation, the human person, and Revelation. In the next chapter, Revelation will be presented as the greatest and most essential path to God. He is discov¬ered also through creation and through the mystery of our inner life.

 

[CopticChristian]

And if you need a steeping stone… you can sojourn in the Lutheran church for a while on your journey.

I would say on a personal level the best change you could make is to join a church that confesses the mystery of the Eucharist. Whenever my brain doubts, it is this holy mystery that makes my soul reflect, and I am whole for a time.

Ben,

Then let me reframe that to,

CU you may want to consider joining in a celebration of worship in the Eucharist and a sojuourn as a Lutheran.

 

[guanophore]

Correct me if I’m wrong (any Lutheran jump in here too, because I’m way out of my depth)

I think our churches agree that God’s calls us to repentance, and that we receive his grace without merit, but I think the subtle difference is that the Catholic church teaches that man may reject this grace by the free will given by God. Lutherans say that we lack the ability to reject God’s grace even with our free will (such that it is) - though we do say we can turn eventually away from that grace if we’re stubborn.

How do you reconcile this position with scriptures such as:

Luke 7:28-30
28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

If God’s purpose was, as the Calvanist’s say, that they should be lost, then how is it that actually refusing Christ is “rejecting God’s purpose for themselves”?

If God’s purpose was for them to come to salvation, then by what will could they “reject” His purpose for themselves?

 

[benjohnson]

How do you reconcile this position with scriptures such as (…)

This is where I have to chicken out and say the position I stated to you is how I understand the teaching of my pastor. I certainly lack authority, and I’m if I appear even remotely intelligent, I’m only regurgitating what I’ve been taught. Poorly.

That said, let me offer my thoughts:

I think we get to give the Pharisees a bit of the benefit of the doubt, for at the time they rejected God’s purpose they didn’t have the benefit of Calvary or the gospel. They viewed themselves as being righteous in their own eyes, with no need to repentance.

But for ourselves that have been given the gospel - how can we stand on our own feet? Given what we have had the joy to see, how can we begin to deny our need for repentance ? For myself and only myself, until I heard the gospel, I didn’t even know there was such a thing as repentance. But once the gospel is heard and understood, can we add anything more to it with out own minds? My mind can only say “Amen!”

That said, the concept of free will is something I struggle with, for everything in my marrow seems to want to sing out that “I am my own rule!” Yet, my understanding (when I’m fortunate to even see a glimmer of hope) seems to indicate that I let Him rule.

I’m content as I can be to let him rule, for I’m afraid that I’m a horrid master even to myself.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Learning more about each other is the first step across the divide, and this forum is an important part of doing that.

Yesterday afternoon one of my adult sons and I attended an organ concert which was held at the Catholic church we volunteer at - the instrument is said to be the oldest working pipe organ in Memphis (100+ years old). The concert continued right up to the start of the 5:15 Mass and we decided to stay (who can get enough of God’s Word!)

The Love that filled that sanctuary nearly took my breath away. The homily was what I needed to hear (based on the same lectionary verses as our Lutheran one earlier that morning ) with yet more comfort to heal the wounds left on us all by the tragedy in CT. I was able to follow the Mass easily as the liturgy was so very similar to ours (even if the musical setting was contemporary flavored).

And yet I heard words that reminded me that these building blocks of our worship are used differently by our respective churches. Specifically, the meaning of the Sacrifice in the Mass. To me, all of the Sacrifice is Christ’s. Yet Father Tim mentioned “may our sacrifices be pleasing” and my Lutheran knickers were instantly in a twist.

We are each a product of what we have been taught - but from my time here on this forum, I know that when I don’t understand something, I need to reach out and not pull back.

Thanks to all of you here on CAF for the bits of unity you have built as we are led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[asd72]

Ok, I freely admit that I’m going to give you a horrible answer and I hope JonNC comes and saves me.

As I understand it, Lutherans usually say that it is God who finds us and saves us. For us, the idea that we have any part in our initial salvation seem far fetched - we say we should be gratified at that God has moved us in his direction.

The idea being that we have no free will for things that are above us (salvation), but we do have free will for things below us (choosing what pie to eat for dessert) - and if we have free will, we only have just enough free will to rebel against salvation.

As I understand it, the Catholic church teaches, in certain respect, that man cooperates with his salvation from the start - that it’s his joyous free will walks him into church to be freely baptized.

Now… I’m a prideful bugger from the start, so the Lutheran view goes against my nature. If left to my own wits, I would be in (what I think is) the Catholic camp.I don’t like the idea that I didn’t find God. I want to think that I presented myself to him for his love. But the Lutheran understanding also frees me from stressing about why I didn’t find God earlier, and oddly, it frees me from having to worry about why other people are not Christian and if God will save them - it is his will, and such a kind and loving will at that, that he chose to offer me salvation that I don’t fear for those that aren’t obviously Christian.

Again, I crave your understanding in that I’m most likely I’m wrong in this.

So you have enough free will to say no to God, but not to say yes? Is saying yes and cooperating with that grace, by consenting to be catechised and baptized a work?

 

[benjohnson]

So you have enough free will to say no to God, but not to say yes? Is saying yes and cooperating with that grace, by consenting to be catechised and baptized a work?

Let me preface again, that if what I say is incorrect, the blame is mine.

In the redemptice process, we could have a part to play, but the grace we receive increases without bound and makes the our small finite cooperation meaningless.

At some level, when we finally repent and receive, it is his will and desire that makes the relationship and not our own, for he is infinatly strong and we are infinatly weak. As He is everything, we are as dust - so we can never merit grace, for even if we did, the totality of everything is him and him alone.

To answer directly: As I understand it, we can say “yes” and go even further to proclaim the gospel with a song in our hearts, but I would say that we’re responding to God’s infinate gift of grace and salvation.

I cartainly could imagine that I have free will, and it sure seems that way. But if we do have the ability to choose, even that ability is a gift from God. And even if God wants us to have free will, and even if he allows us to reject him, we should acknolwage that even our creation was done by him.

 

[guanophore]

This is where I have to chicken out and say the position I stated to you is how I understand the teaching of my pastor. I certainly lack authority, and I’m if I appear even remotely intelligent, I’m only regurgitating what I’ve been taught. Poorly.

That said, let me offer my thoughts:

I think we get to give the Pharisees a bit of the benefit of the doubt, for at the time they rejected God’s purpose they didn’t have the benefit of Calvary or the gospel. They viewed themselves as being righteous in their own eyes, with no need to repentance.

But for ourselves that have been given the gospel - how can we stand on our own feet? Given what we have had the joy to see, how can we begin to deny our need for repentance ? For myself and only myself, until I heard the gospel, I didn’t even know there was such a thing as repentance. But once the gospel is heard and understood, can we add anything more to it with out own minds? My mind can only say “Amen!”

That said, the concept of free will is something I struggle with, for everything in my marrow seems to want to sing out that “I am my own rule!” Yet, my understanding (when I’m fortunate to even see a glimmer of hope) seems to indicate that I let Him rule.

I’m content as I can be to let him rule, for I’m afraid that I’m a horrid master even to myself.

You speak for many of us, I have no doubt. But Jesus was in the act of presenting the Gospel to them, and this is how Luke records their response. The same Gospel came to them as came to those who John Baptized to herald His coming, but their hearts were not open to it.

I propose to you that the Gospel has never changed. People have always been saved by grace, through faith. People have always received sufficient grace to turn to God, and throw themselves upon His mercy. Granted, we see what those who came before us did not, because we look back upon Calvary, as they looked forward. But, from the beginning of creation:

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

Human beings have been created to choose between life and death. God commands us to choose life, but he allows us to choose death.

He gies sufficient grace to all to choose life, but not all meet that grace with faith.

Heb 4:2-3
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which **they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. **

The individual must make an act of the will, to meet God’s grace with faith. As Catholics (and I believe you as Lutherans also, Jon will correct us if we are wrong) believe that it is also God’s grace that moves the heart, inclining us to act in faith toward God.

Titus 3:5-8
5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is sure.

Even the act of turning to Him comes out of His Own Mercy, not of ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

Learning more about each other is the first step across the divide, and this forum is an important part of doing that.

Yesterday afternoon one of my adult sons and I attended an organ concert which was held at the Catholic church we volunteer at - the instrument is said to be the oldest working pipe organ in Memphis (100+ years old). The concert continued right up to the start of the 5:15 Mass and we decided to stay (who can get enough of God’s Word!)

The Love that filled that sanctuary nearly took my breath away. The homily was what I needed to hear (based on the same lectionary verses as our Lutheran one earlier that morning ) with yet more comfort to heal the wounds left on us all by the tragedy in CT. I was able to follow the Mass easily as the liturgy was so very similar to ours (even if the musical setting was contemporary flavored).

And yet I heard words that reminded me that these building blocks of our worship are used differently by our respective churches. Specifically, the meaning of the Sacrifice in the Mass. To me, all of the Sacrifice is Christ’s. Yet Father Tim mentioned “may our sacrifices be pleasing” and my Lutheran knickers were instantly in a twist.

We are each a product of what we have been taught - but from my time here on this forum, I know that when I don’t understand something, I need to reach out and not pull back.

Thanks to all of you here on CAF for the bits of unity you have built as we are led by the Holy Spirit.

I can see why that would give you a twist.

Like most of our differences, it is important to understand it in context. For Catholics, the Mass is an event where we join ourselves to Christ at the foot of His cross. We are transported through time and space, bringing all that we have, and all that we are to the altar with Him.

This is our way of bringing our gifts, the bread and wine, the tithes, the prayers:

Phil 4:18
he gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.

And our praise:

Heb 13:15-16
Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Our bodies and our whole lives:

Rom 12:1-2
2:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

In this most perfect moment of spiritual worship, we crucify the world to us, and ourselves to the world, being joined with Him on the cross.

 

[maximus]

My personal view is that our lack of unity and clarity in belief will hurt in the long run, granted we have been on quite a long run already with lack of unity. Too many forces outside and from within against us.

It seems that in modern times with the new aggressive atheism which seems to have as a goal eradication of all religious belief and institutions particularly those who serve the general public hospitals, schools, and social services. All of this coupled with our rapidly dwindling numbers and the majority of Christians Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant seeking to try to merge their humanistic ideals with watered down Christianity is a recipe for our rapid demise.

The problem is that sort of divine intervention there is no way to achieve unity.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

 Let me preface again, that if what I say  is incorrect, the blame is mine.

In the redemptice process, we could have a part to play, but the grace we receive increases without bound and makes the our small finite cooperation meaningless.

It is true that our contribution is as a rain drop in the sea, but that does not make it meaningless. God calls upon us to offer our drop.

At some level, when we finally repent and receive, it is his will and desire that makes the relationship and not our own, for he is infinatly strong and we are infinatly weak. As He is everything, we are as dust - so we can never merit grace, for even if we did, the totality of everything is him and him alone.

Yes it is He that is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure, but we are still called upon to work out our own salvation. It is likely that you are not understanding how Catholics understand the concept of “merit grace” but that will have to wait till I get off work today.

Suffice to say that it is incumbent upon us to do works that befit repentance, and to walk worthy of the calling to which we have been called. It does NOT mean we deserve grace as a wage, but that we become the persons He has graced us to be.

To answer directly: As I understand it, we can say "yes" and go even further to proclaim the gospel with a song in our hearts, but I would say that we're responding to God's infinate gift of grace and salvation.

Yes, this is a Catholic understanding of meriting grace. He pours, we receive, we respond, we pour, He pours more!

 I cartainly could imagine that I have free will, and it sure seems that way. But if we do have the ability to choose, even that ability is a gift from God. And even if God wants us to have free will, and even if he allows us to reject him,  we should acknolwage that even our creation was done by him.

Yes, this is how we understand the Apostolic instruction on free will.

 

[cheezey]

SEPARATED BRETHREN ALSO HONOUR MARY
Pope John Paul II

Through Mary we pray for unity and harmony

We ceaselessly pray to the Blessed Virgin so that, just as at the beginning she supported the journey of the Christian community’s oneness in prayer and the proclamation of the Gospel, so today she may obtain through her intercession reconciliation and full communion among all believers in Christ.

Mother of men, Mary knows well the needs and aspirations of humanity. The Council particularly asks her to intercede so that “all families of people, whether they are honoured with the title of Christian or whether they still do not know the Saviour, may be happily gathered together in peace and harmony into one People of God, for the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity” (Lumen gentium, n. 69).

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
19 November 1997, page 7

 

[cheezey]

“It is not a unity of religion we seek but a union of religious people. We may not be able to meet in the same pew, but we can meet together on our knees (as Christians)”

Archbishop Fulton J Sheen

 

[Stilldreamn]

It is true that our contribution is as a rain drop in the sea, but that does not make it meaningless. God calls upon us to offer our drop.

Got it - like the widow’s mite, yes?

 

[benjohnson]

. It is likely that you are not understanding how Catholics understand the concept of “merit grace” but that will have to wait till I get off work today.

I look forward to it! I appreciate the time you’ve spent already!

Am I reading this correctly: I say no drop of merit is necessary, you say that a vapor of merit is possible but also not necessary?

I’m not necessarily vehemently arguing, in fact I’m sort of struggling on trying to figure out what the crux of the LCMS objection is, or even if the objection is worth bothering about.

I wonder, if going forward, do we need to have full agreement on issues such as this? In a way, we’re at the point of counting angles on a head of a pin while the world around us cries out for the Gospel.

Would it be so bad if my Church just acknowledge that the Catholic church is kinda-sort-of-wrong but we still chose to move toward unity?

I sort of have the same viewpoint on the Catholic view on Transubstantiation - I would say that any human definition will always fall short of the mystery, but the fact that Catholics have a definition doesn’t effect the validity of the salvation they receive.

In a way, I hope the Catholic church would feel the same for us American Lutherans, in that we lack a traditional understanding of the Apostolic succession. I would hope that while we may be wrong, it hopefully doesn’t effect our salvation.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Love it!
Oh and for CU, in case you missed it:
Áve María, grátia pléna, Dóminus técum; benedícta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus frúctus véntris túi, Jésus.
Mi Jésu, indúlge peccáta nóstra, consérva nos ab ígne inférni, duc ómnes ad cáeli glóriam, præcípue túa misericórdia egéntes.

That’s definitely over my head and pay grade. Are Catholic mass still done in Latin or in another language than the indigenousness language? I’m glad the Bible has been translated into English, otherwise I would be Catholic (just kidding)

 

[Chris_Etzel]

That’s definitely over my head and pay grade. Are Catholic mass still done in Latin or in another language than the indigenousness language? I’m glad the Bible has been translated into English, otherwise I would be Catholic (just kidding)

Mass is in English or Latin, German, French, Portuguese, Tagalog… pick a language, there’s probably a Mass celebrated in it. In the US it’s in English.

The Douay-Rheims was an English translation that pre-dated the KJV so you could theoretically have still been Catholic.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Mass is in English or Latin, German, French, Portuguese, Tagalog… pick a language, there’s probably a Mass celebrated in it. In the US it’s in English.

The Douay-Rheims was an English translation that pre-dated the KJV so you could theoretically have still been Catholic.

Here’s a little history of Protestant Bibles. The KJV is definitely overrated. The mainstream English Bible of its day was the Geneva Bible (Calvinist’s notes on it). The English king was anti-Calvinistic so he authorized the KJV to be made which the translation was made from the Bishops Bible, omitting those Reformed notes. The Bible that came to America was the Geneva Bible and not the KJV.

 

[cheezey]

Unity! It would be great if all of Christianity was united, meaning one Christian religion group.

Sadly, it appears that Protestant Christians are not entirely opened to want to fully learn what Catholicism truly is.

of course not, but I am sure that Catholic Christians are not entirely open to fully learning what Protestantism truly is, either. Yet to understand and know how to lead someone, one should understand where the other is, where (s)he has been; for everyone learns differently, even if the destination is the same…in this case, the message of God’s Love, through His Beloved Son and the ever present Holy Spirit

 

[cheezey]

Matthew 22:34-40

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."