Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[rfournier103]

Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants? We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?

The most important issue and most overlooked is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16 NIV
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Most churches today do not understand this simple message and how to teach it to others. Most Christ followers are not baptized or cannot remember their baptism.

Romans 10:9 NIV
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is the Grace of God who saves those who Profess Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Religion can be very foolish. Faith in Jesus saves all who humble themselves, repent, and accept his salvation. This is the True Faith, the narrow way, the gate, etc.

Most Christian Denominations teach salvation by works or by their particular tradition.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

This is the Gospel, those who do not teach it lead their congregations to ruin and despair.
The Gospel is the only hope in the World and to many it has become an archaic notion.

Revival only comes when the truth is preached and Men abandon foolish notions.

I also share your feeling that there there is much we agree on. However, I am curious as to how you view Baptism and Faith.

I agree that Sacrament of Baptism is required because Jesus said so.

Next, you have quoted several passages that seem like “faith alone” is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven.

As I understand it, Catholics do not believe that faith alone gets you into Heaven. I also understand that good works will not get you into Heaven. It is God’s Grace, and His Grace ALONE that shall get you into Heaven.

I hold that “faith” is not the very oversimplified; “just believeing that Jesus existis, believing that He died on the Cross for us, and rose from the dead to save us all from sin” requirement many believe. Would you not agree that faith in Jesus Christ requires us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless? In Matthew 25:45-46, Jesus clearly tells us that that whatever we fail to do for the least ones, we shall be judged rather harshly for it. Having faith means believing; AND fulfilling the obligations of said faith.

I agree that even if a man lives a philanthropic life, yet rejects God, he’s likely in for a nasty afterlife. But I don’t think that the overly simplistic view of faith is what MOST Christians believe.

If I may, I would like to use James 2:14-26… (from the NAB at the Vatican’s website)
*What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. *

Or, from Revalation 22:12… Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.

That seems pretty clear to me. Unless we as Christians can reconcile what you have quoted, and what I have quoted, we may never achieve unity. That would be a sad thing…

 

[Porknpie]

I have to wonder, from your answer, what in hell you think I’m proposing, because you can’t have a clue to what that quote means and say what you did. That what I’m pointing to. You don’t, within your paradigm you chose, have the capacity to include in your considerations what that statement actually points to.

Not even remotely close.

And it is a diversion.

Yep. Concepts. That is not the point of that statement. Maybe later. Thanks for trying.

Novart,

I’m interested in knowing if you believe that the bible is the inerrant written Word of God and inspired by him?

If so why and how do you get this understanding?

If not, …perhaps you can explain why not too…

 

[october_baby]

I also share your feeling that there there is much we agree on. However, I am curious as to how you view Baptism and Faith.

I agree that Sacrament of Baptism is required because Jesus said so.

Next, you have quoted several passages that seem like “faith alone” is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven.

As I understand it, Catholics do not believe that faith alone gets you into Heaven. I also understand that good works will not get you into Heaven. It is God’s Grace, and His Grace ALONE that shall get you into Heaven.

I hold that “faith” is not the very oversimplified; “just believeing that Jesus existis, believing that He died on the Cross for us, and rose from the dead to save us all from sin” requirement many believe. Would you not agree that faith in Jesus Christ requires us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless? In Matthew 25:45-46, Jesus clearly tells us that that whatever we fail to do for the least ones, we shall be judged rather harshly for it. Having faith means believing; AND fulfilling the obligations of said faith.

I agree that even if a man lives a philanthropic life, yet rejects God, he’s likely in for a nasty afterlife. But I don’t think that the overly simplistic view of faith is what MOST Christians believe.

If I may, I would like to use James 2:14-26… (from the NAB at the Vatican’s website)
*What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. *

Or, from Revalation 22:12… Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.

That seems pretty clear to me. Unless we as Christians can reconcile what you have quoted, and what I have quoted, we may never achieve unity. That would be a sad thing…

excellent post!

 

[rfournier103]

Thank you, October Baby. I do my best!

 

[cheezey]

Unless we as Christians can reconcile what you have quoted, and what I have quoted, we may never achieve unity. That would be a sad thing…

Wonderful, wonderful

 

[crazydays08]

777rak:

Unity! It would be great if all of Christianity was united, meaning one Christian religion group.

Sadly, it appears that Protestant Christians are not entirely opened to want to fully learn what Catholicism truly is.

whoa not true, once I found this forum, I have had a lot of eye openers. I just think that most protestants are spoon fed bad rumors about the catholic faith and never take the time to look for themselves

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[cheezey]

whoa not true, once I found this forum, I have had a lot of eye openers. I just think that most protestants are spoon fed bad rumors about the catholic faith and never take the time to look for themselves

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maybe partly true; it may be that many Protestants haven’t looked into the possibilities, thus are not familiar with the specifics of the Church, which is a more positive spin, in contrast to the negative spin of ‘rumors.’ Just a thought…I can’t tell you how many times while studying a subject that I have found myself saying something like, “So THAT’s where that came from!” or “So THAT’S why that is…”

 

[guanophore]

whoa not true, once I found this forum, I have had a lot of eye openers. I just think that most protestants are spoon fed bad rumors about the catholic faith and never take the time to look for themselves

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Well God bless you crazydays for coming with an open mind and willing to learn.

When I sojourned among my separated brethren I was, indeed, spoon fed a number of mischaracterizations and misunderstandings. It was trying to sort them all out that made me come back!

 

[CopticChristian]

Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants? We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?

Yo Mike,

I have three questions.

Is it your belief that you profess a belief based on Romans 9 as you posited and that is the means by which you are transformed?

Next, I am intrigued. What denominations have you encountered that teach salvation by works. Name them.

What is a revival in the context of foolish notions. What are these foolish notions?

 

[rfournier103]

whoa not true, once I found this forum, I have had a lot of eye openers. I just think that most protestants are spoon fed bad rumors about the catholic faith and never take the time to look for themselves

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

It speaks to your character that you have chosen to see for yourself. I you have a thirst for knowledge, and an open mind, you will do well here. Welcome aboard.

 

[KathleenGee]

Precisely!

My gripe about Protestants is there are those who want to believe anything certain preachers teach about our faith. Yes, they come up with their credentials, some even with Master’s Degrees from universities, but their foundation is adversarial and that always imply emotions and passions…minus facts, minus a solid education.

And I see the devil’s handiwork in this, the PhD of lies and unnecessary divisions.

 

[JonNC]

Precisely!

My gripe about Protestants is there are those who want to believe anything certain preachers teach about our faith. Yes, they come up with their credentials, some even with Master’s Degrees from universities, but their foundation is adversarial and that always imply emotions and passions…minus facts, minus a solid education.

And I see the devil’s handiwork in this, the PhD of lies and unnecessary divisions.

I might have to agree with you about some protestants in this way, and add that it goes both ways, as I am witnssing in the time-machine-back-to-Luther thread.

Therefore, Luther’s commentary on the eighth commandment:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

Who I am addressing, Jon, are those non-denominational preachers who are constantly downgrading and misguiding their followers to believe that we worship Mary, we do not use the Bible, we worship the pope, the Eucharist is only symbolic, personal interpretation vs the Church as interpreter of Scripture and so on.

I have not had time to go through the thread on the timeline going back to Martin Luther, however.

The bottom line is that Christ called us to be one, not just symbolically but in life, to all come to one banquet table together. If you don’t worship with me, how can I love you and serve you, how can we share Christ together in fullnesss and communion? That is my response to Lutherans as yourself.

 

[JonNC]

=KathleenGee;10237840]Who I am addressing, Jon, are those non-denominational preachers who are constantly downgrading and misguiding their followers to believe that we worship Mary, we do not use the Bible, we worship the pope, the Eucharist is only symbolic, personal interpretation vs the Church as interpreter of Scripture and so on.

I know you are, Kathleen, and I know you are aware that I, at times, will dispute them here on this forum.

I have not had time to go through the thread on the timeline going back to Martin Luther, however.

Not a problem. It probably isn’t woth reading.

The bottom line is that Christ called us to be one, not just symbolically but in life, to all come to one banquet table together. If you don’t worship with me, how can I love you and serve you, how can we share Christ together in fullnesss and communion? That is my response to Lutherans as yourself.

You and I can love each other, that much is certain. That we cannot share His Supper at the same altar is a great lament for me, as well.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

The bottom line is that Christ called us to be one, not just symbolically but in life, to all come to one banquet table together. If you don’t worship with me, how can I love you and serve you, how can we share Christ together in fullnesss and communion? That is my response to Lutherans as yourself.

Kathleen,

I share with you the sadness that we are not gathered together at the banquet. It distresses me that we are unable to share in the supper that our Lord prepared for all who believe in him. His body and blood were not given for a select few nor, I believe, only for those in specific Christian traditions.

Having said that, I recognize that there are difficulties to be overcome with people who do not believe Jesus’ words, “this is my Body, given for you” or “this cup is the new covenant in my blood.” One would wonder why such people would even seek to receive Holy Communion.

As I ramble on, I’ll close with the thought that rather than seeking and focusing on reasons for eating at separate tables, we should seek and focus on reasons for joining one another. After all, our Lord himself wasn’t too particular about whom he chose to dine with. Why should we be more exclusive than he?

 

[KathleenGee]

So true!..and in the Lord I Love You!

I became best friends with our German exchange student going back to 1966-67. She just sent me a birthday card the other day.

She went on her own faith journey. She came to southern Italy to be with me for 2 weeks outside of Naples, and we stayed in a priests’ dormitory for visitors…Marrechiarro…and we went to Pompeii together with 2 priests. She went to India and studied there.

She is now back to her Lutheran faith and we are in communion in our own way. We share enough with each other and she shared how she went out to get her Advent firs…she is on fire for the Lord.

And we are both getting old but young in Him…

Always hold on to the spiritual childhood…

I hope in my lifetime I will see reunification with the Lutherans. After hearing the Bishop speak, it sounded like a combo of clerical corruption, nationalization vs papal states, poor communication, and Martin Luther’s personality issues that kept him from teachings that would have freed him from them, and brought him into full communion…(I saw the towers all down through Italy…the priest teaching me that communication of some types were sent by fire signals…)…(just think about it put into words and different languages in those days)…

Because of times Luther lived in, along with his personality issues, I don’t think he ever entered into the mystery of faith in communion with the Holy Trinity in the Church.

I have read some of his writings, read his last letters before his death, and he had a very animating faith in God. I also read that he theologically disagreed with those who broke off further away from the Church’s center.

 

[CopticChristian]

Kathleen,

I share with you the sadness that we are not gathered together at the banquet. It distresses me that we are unable to share in the supper that our Lord prepared for all who believe in him. His body and blood were not given for a select few nor, I believe, only for those in specific Christian traditions.

Having said that, I recognize that there are difficulties to be overcome with people who do not believe Jesus’ words, “this is my Body, given for you” or “this cup is the new covenant in my blood.” One would wonder why such people would even seek to receive Holy Communion.

As I ramble on, I’ll close with the thought that rather than seeking and focusing on reasons for eating at separate tables, we should seek and focus on reasons for joining one another. After all, our Lord himself wasn’t too particular about whom he chose to dine with. Why should we be more exclusive than he?

Pastor,

With all due respect. While it is thoughtful and it is meaningful to believe that the Lord Himself was not select with whom He dined with the reality is that unity with Him is without doubt essential to any unity. If Christ is the center and foundation of belief, if in these last days He spoke to us through His son, if by one man’s obedience we were made righteous then are we not to look at the obedience of Faith if Revelation and ask…

If the worship of God is to the Father, through the Son, in unity of the Holy Spirit…and if that worship is Christ centered then to unite on any level requries unity in Him and is it too much to ask that unity starts with the Eucharist declared as such for 1600 years prior to one German Monk, as is understood by Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholics with Eastern Catholics?

Is the division based on what Christ teaches or on what we think Christ teaches and if so…perhaps a call to change our mind and be transformed by the renewal of our mind will allow us to…

Profess the Same Faith
Live the Same Sacramental Life
Pursue the Life of Christ
and Pray as one…

As He wishes, because while the Lord did not select who He dined with, as is the reality…today we seek where and who we dine with?

 

[KathleenGee]

As I am in communion with the Holy Father and bishops with him, and likewise share the same apostolic founders, it is hard for me why people cannot take that one step forward to be in communion with us.

After all, the Eucharist is called Holy Communion.

I listened to an Anglican priest state that he wanted to teach in absolutes, definitively but could not do so with no authority. In time he began to see he was in the spirit of schism.

Certainly I do not find myself at all superior to anyone here.

It is about communion and proper form to protect the integrity of the Eucharist. To protect the Eucharist from good Christians, NO!

It is integrity about being one Church, one faith, one baptism, one banquet table.

I wrote a small prayer on my public page. For the most part, all I can do is pray and be in the communion I do have with dear Protestant friends.

 

[SteveVH]

You and I can love each other, that much is certain. That we cannot share His Supper at the same altar is a great lament for me, as well.

Seems much like a divorce, with the children split between households. They love each other and desire to be with one another, but they eat their meals at separate tables. I don’t want to draw this analogy any further than to say its just sad. But I will say one more thing. I feel closer to those of other faith traditions than I ever have before and it is because of this forum. Jon, you are amazing to me, in your knowledge, your honesty and most especially your charity. To call you a brother in Christ comes with no hesitation and much joy. We will share at the same table one day, if not in this life then certainly in the next.

 

[CopticChristian]

Seems much like a divorce, with the children split between households. They love each other and desire to be with one another, but they eat their meals at separate tables. I don’t want to draw this analogy any further than to say its just sad. But I will say one more thing. I feel closer to those of other faith traditions than I ever have before and it is because of this forum. Jon, you are amazing to me, in your knowledge, your honesty and most especially your charity. To call you a brother in Christ comes with no hesitation and much joy. We will share at the same table one day, if not in this life then certainly in the next.

Steve,

May I join you in this praise and adulation…perhaps we should start a thread with a poll about John NC…don’t bother …it will have a resounding Amen…and John will undobtedly answer…

Pshaw…