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batman1973
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Oh, admit it. You’d go to church in a bounce house. We all would.Heh.
I hope the Holy Spirit doesn’t appear there because if the Spirit rains down on this church there’s going to be a literal explosion.
Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?
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PRmerger
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My reaction, if anyone ever suggested we go to church there:Oh, admit it. You’d go to church in a bounce house. We all would.
whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/21990205865/when-i-see-a-guy-wearing-cargo-shorts
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Attejohannes
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I have grown up in a country where 80% of people are Lutherans, 2 % Eastern Orthodox, Some 1 - 2 % pentacostals, adventists and methodists. Catholics, well, a couple of thousands (mainly immigrants, in my youth). I never have neverbeen bothered over the number of denominations.One of the “fruits” of the reformation is +30,000 protestant denominations, I can’t say this is part of God’s plan.
The protestant denominations in Europe are much more monolithic (Lutheran, Anglican or Reforemed) than in the USA. Partly, I think because historical reason. USA was a refuge for all types of persecuted or discriminated sects of Europe, and that probably created a tradition of doctrinal diversity. Well, maybe that was also a part of God’s plan that there would be a place on the Earth, where a decent mannonite could live according to his/her faith.
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PRmerger
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Well, good mornin’ to you! You didn’t sleep long!
I am off to get my zzzz’s now, but I will end with this: you ought to be bothered by the number of denominations, for it truly is an obscenity.
Now, thanks to the Protestant Reformation, we have tens of thousands of denominations, each claiming that their interpretation of Scripture is the correct one.
Just what the devil ordered, IMHO.
We have chaos and confusion over whether
Baptism saves? Or is it an ordinance? Or a sacrament? Or a symbol?
The day of worship is Sunday? Or is it Saturday?
We are once saved, always saved? Or we can lose our salvation?
Women can be ordained? Or only men can?
Abortion is a sin? Or a sacrament?
Divorce and remarriage is adultery? Or is it permissible?
Worship should involve music? Or is it an abomination?
The Eucharist is merely a symbol? Or is it the Real Presence? Or a commemoration?
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Attejohannes
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No, I did not sleep long, I have to go to trip today.Well, good mornin’ to you! You didn’t sleep long!
I am off to get my zzzz’s now, but I will end with this: you ought to be bothered by the number of denominations, for it truly is an obscenity.
Now, thanks to the Protestant Reformation, we have tens of thousands of denominations, each claiming that their interpretation of Scripture is the correct one.
Just what the devil ordered, IMHO.
We have chaos and confusion over whether
Baptism saves? Or is it an ordinance? Or a sacrament? Or a symbol?
The day of worship is Sunday? Or is it Saturday?
We are once saved, always saved? Or we can lose our salvation?
Women can be ordained? Or only men can?
Abortion is a sin? Or a sacrament?
Divorce and remarriage is adultery? Or is it permissible?
Worship should involve music? Or is it an abomination?
The Eucharist is merely a symbol? Or is it the Real Presence? Or a commemoration?
I still and obstinately say that it is better to have denominational diversity than unity imposed by oppression.
Well, thanks for regarding my prayers as something that might count. But I think you are drifting into a doctrinal error, since the Council of Trent (which I think you counted among the infallible ones) heaped so many anathemas over me and my kind, that if you asked the fathers of tha council, whether it is OK to ask or even to expect a protestant’s prayers and even to toy with an idea that they might have some effect, they would have looked at you either a joker, an idiot, or tainted by heresy yourself. Watch yourself!
But luckily the council was fallible, as I happily believe.
Appropos, the infallibility again. You are saying, or at least it sounds so, that if a person or institution, or a bench of bishops is right in one thing, then this person, institution etc. is infallible in everything.
Your infallibly heretic and anathemized
Atte
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Porknpie
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Atte-
And one counter to your belief, is that scripture says…the words of Jesus himself say…
[BIBLEDRB]John 17:21[/BIBLEDRB]
And truthfully, being obstinate is a result of pride. I can be so too
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pablope
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Attejohannes
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CopticChristian
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Jones,
I am grateful for you explanation. What you percieve to be majority decision is not necessarily a majority decision by way of analogy.
Consider this. Alfred Korzybski, father of General Semantics pointed out that humans do something plants and animals cannot do. Humans bind time. Well, what is that? Human’s take information from the past and add to it and build on it and bring new understanding. In other words they don’t invent so much as aid in understanding, so as not to reinvent the wheel. In that regared Einstien did the following…
In other words the Genius of Einstien is not in detracting from the majority rather it is in taking what is known and aiding understanding by adding essential depth of knowledge to what was already there. Einstien did not invent what he described and what the majority did not understand, it was always there, he just understood it and the scientific community accepted it because it was information that “time bind” the past.
Luther is no Einstien.
He brought no new understanding by building on the past and brought no depth of knowledge and understanding that was accepted by the Christian community.
Luther defies the laws of General Semantics and does not bind time like rational humans do.
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pablope
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Did not protestants also do this? And this only happened after Luther’s protest started, is it not?
And if Luther wanted reform, why did he not follow the example of Catherine of Sienna before her? What made Luther a better reformer than Catherine?
What happened in England when Henry viii rebelled against the Pope? Frankly, I do not know why you bring this up.
But you evaded totally my question:
Atte…how would you know, or how can you tell if this is indeed God’s wish? And how does this fulfill Christ’s prayer in John 17:21?..I still and obstinately say that it is better to have denominational diversity than unity imposed by oppression…
And as an additional question…what do you say of this passage:
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”
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Attejohannes
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The question, whether Luther broght anything beneficial to Christianity is exactly the point of division between Catholics and us. And - coming back to the title of the thread - I do not see any indication of reconciliation. So, the division remains, whatever we might wish.
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CopticChristian
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Jones,
You may want to rethink your analogy and whatever it is you believe Luther did. This would certainly help in understanding the point of the thread. Your perception remains your reality as it regards Luther and the question is open to discussion as to how that relates to reality.
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Attejohannes
Guest
…
And as an additional question…what do you say of this passage:
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”
Well, Luther was not allowed to have much of a chance. I think his stand on the sale of Indulgencies were too much to tolearated due to the need of money the Church then faced.
And If you asked any of the Infallible Tridentine fathers about asking an anathemized protestant to part for you, you would have received a very short and clear answer…
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Attejohannes
Guest
…
And as an additional question…what do you say of this passage:
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”
Regarding the religious oppression, there were plenty of examples before the reformation. The suppression of the Albigensian heresy was not done by sweet persuasion. The inquisition started to harass Spanish muslims and jews independently of Reformation. And Jan Hus was, of course, burned at the stake well before Luther’s time.
While in 16 -17 th centuries the intolerance between protestants and catholics was reciprocal, it was the protestant countries in which the idea that a state should not control their citizens’ religious convictions first rooted themselves. Why I take these issues up? Because the unity of 16 th century in the west ( the unity between east and west had already been broken hundreds of years earlier) was not unity by conviction but a forced unity. If the 16 th century catholicism was consitent with the spiritual needs of the people, Luther would have remained a lonely man.
Therefore I think that even doctrinal diversity is better than an unity which is imposed on you.
Regarding the OT verses you cite, it was Luther’s view that exactly the papacy was guilty of arrogance, pride, even idolatry. And some pretty arrogant and proud Popes there were in those days. And If it is said that they might have ben morally, but not doctrinally corrupt, this is an evasion. The idea that the Church could sell indulgencies in the way and manner it was done is to me really a doctrinal sin and peril to the souls of those people who due to lack of theological training could not discern the fine points and caveats of the practice.
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Attejohannes
Guest
This space does not allow a detailed discussion of the topic. Suffices to say that Luther found again ( he certainly did not invent it) the salvation based on Christ’s work alone. It meant that If I am saved it is not because of the sincerity of my repentance, the works, good or bad I have done, on any intercession but by Christ’s work alone. And this you have probably heard a million times, and probably you have your million counterarguments. Just to anticipate one of the most common, I just say that Luther did not reject good works, but considered them as fruit and not the cause of justification and sanctification.
The thief on the cross did not have many good works on his credit, but he recognized Christ’s and implored His help, and that was enough.
As Luther said: “Dont be ashamed to be saved like the thief on the cross. He is the first saint of the New Testament”
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PRmerger
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Haha! Yes, Atte, denominational diversity is better than “unity imposed by oppression.”
Fortunately, those are not our only 2 choices.
What we have now is denominational chaos (NOT diversity) rather than unity through Truth in Him.
Thanks to the mantra of the Protestant Reformation of the unholy trinity (Me, My Bible and the Holy Spirit), we have the doctrinal confusion of tens of thousands of differing beliefs, all from reading the same Bible.
This should cause you much sorrow, Atte.
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TexanKnight
Guest
I have not read all the posts, so maybe this has been said already.
I do not think anyone wants the divides we now have…but we are also talking about THE most important issue of our lives. While no one wants the divides, I want even less to compromise our beliefs in order to have unity.
We are Catholic. We should always remember that. We should not change so others like us better.
I do not think anyone wants the divides we now have…but we are also talking about THE most important issue of our lives. While no one wants the divides, I want even less to compromise our beliefs in order to have unity.
We are Catholic. We should always remember that. We should not change so others like us better.
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Attejohannes
Guest
As I have said earlier, you in the USA are apparently really faced by doctrinal chaos, and I have already expressed my own speculation of the reason for it, namely America being for centuries a refuge of oppressed and discriminated religious groups of Europe. This easily creates a hotbed for doctrinal diversication.Haha! Yes, Atte, denominational diversity is better than “unity imposed by oppression.”
Fortunately, those are not our only 2 choices.
What we have now is denominational chaos (NOT diversity) rather than unity through Truth in Him.
Thanks to the mantra of the Protestant Reformation of the unholy trinity (Me, My Bible and the Holy Spirit), we have the doctrinal confusion of tens of thousands of differing beliefs, all from reading the same Bible.
This should cause you much sorrow, Atte.
Luckily I have lived for most of my life in a country not having a doctrinal diversity, but so dull and uniform Lutheranism that " Lutheran" is practically a synonym to “Christian”. When staying in the USA in the 80’ies I really could not take the TV- evangelists quite seriously ( I thought them comical, and the constant “Pepsodent smile” even irritant). Laser in yeasts I have grown more tolerant and think that if there are souls that simply have to be approached this way, then by all means. I am content to go to my dull Lutheran Church and recite: “I, miserable sinner etc…”
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Attejohannes
Guest
Just a word of explanation. I am writing using an I-Pad, and a program, which tries to anticipate my words. If my writing contains strange words and idioms, don’t jump to conclusions like “this poor arch- Lutheran is now converting to Pentecostalism, and is speaking in tongues”Haha! Yes, Atte, denominational diversity is better than “unity imposed by oppression.”
Fortunately, those are not our only 2 choices.
What we have now is denominational chaos (NOT diversity) rather than unity through Truth in Him.
Thanks to the mantra of the Protestant Reformation of the unholy trinity (Me, My Bible and the Holy Spirit), we have the doctrinal confusion of tens of thousands of differing beliefs, all from reading the same Bible.
This should cause you much sorrow, Atte.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Jones,
The thief on the cross did a work…but that work was by grace, through Faith…
The Catholic Church teaches and has taught we are saved
by grace, through Faith, working in love, and these works are not of our own, for on our own we can do nothing…
If you and Luther believe you found something that was not there, then you did not look. This is and has been Catholic teaching.
Whatever works I do, are the result of the grace/help I have been given and are nothing more than God working through me…God loves me, He helps me, He wants me to please Him and He gives me the help I need to do whatever it is that is pleasing to Him because on my own I cannot.
You may want to look into the issue of indulgences as you understand them and the history of the indulgences as this appears to be a misunderstood item on your part.
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