Do we sin when not loving God as much as we can?

[Bookcat]

But too often our desires are worldly in origin, and therefore folly. :

How now are you using the word “worldly”.

If one means “But too often our desires are worldly (that is sinful) in origin, and therefore folly.” That is correct.

if one means “But too often our desires are worldly (meaning not directly religious) in origin, and therefore folly.” That would be incorrect.

“worldly” meaning “sinful” - yes such is folly.

“worldly” meaning not directly religious is not per se “folly”. The Church would disagree with such an idea.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12072917&postcount=116

 

[Robert_Sock]

How now are you using the word “worldly”.

If one means “But too often our desires are worldly (that is sinful) in origin, and therefore folly.” That is correct.

if one means “But too often our desires are worldly (meaning not directly religious) in origin, and therefore folly.” That would be incorrect.

“worldly” meaning “sinful” - yes such is folly.

“worldly” meaning not directly religious is not per se “folly”. The Church would disagree with such an idea.

I would say that ‘worldly’ is any influence other than that of the Holy Spirit. Thomas a Kempis never mentions whether our being worldly is sinful or not.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

I would say that ‘worldly’ is any influence other than that of the Holy Spirit. Thomas a Kempis never mentions whether our being worldly is sinful or not.

As to any “worldly influence” - the Church would not take it that the various good influences in life - be it good sports etc - are something that is to be avoided per se. They can be quite good. God does not limit our human life to that which directly is say inspired by the Holy Spirit.

“Being worldly” usually is meant in the sinful sense - that those who are given over to mortal sin. Not living a Christian life.

 

[Robert_Sock]

As to any “worldly influence” - the Church would not take it that the various good influences in life - be it good sports etc - are something that is to be avoided per se. They can be quite good. God does not limit our human life to that which directly is say inspired by the Holy Spirit.

“Being worldly” usually is meant in the sinful sense - that those who are given over to mortal sin. Not living a Christian life.

It would be interesting to see how an advanced Monk would define ‘worldly.’ But I do know that some Cloistered Nuns see each of the human senses as a great potential for ‘lusts.’ Like the lust of the eyes, for example.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

It would be interesting to see how an advanced Monk would define ‘worldly.’ But I do know that some Cloistered Nuns see each of the human senses as a great potential for ‘lusts.’ Like the lust of the eyes, for example.

The term gets used in different senses as I have noted.

Yes for those whose *vocation * is to live a cloistered life -in cell - “worldly” can refer to that which is “secular”. Outside the cloister --“in the world”.

The Imitation of Christ is a work from the middle ages that reflects more the life of the cloister than that of the Christian who is called to live in the world. Written for one in the cloister during that period of time. Is there fruit there for others? sure -but one needs to keep in mind the circumstances and time it was written in and the original audience intended.

Those who are called to be Christians in the world (lay persons)- are to have as St. Pope John Paul II noted a “secular character”. They are not called to the cloister.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

 

[Robert_Sock]

The term gets used in different senses as I have noted.

Yes for those whose *vocation * is to live a cloistered life -in cell - “worldly” can refer to that which is “secular”. Outside the cloister --“in the world”.

The Imitation of Christ is a work from the middle ages that reflects more the life of the cloister than that of the Christian who is called to live in the world. Written for one in the cloister during that period of time. Is there fruit there for others? sure -but one needs to keep in mind the circumstances and time it was written in and the original audience intended.

Those who are called to be Christians in the world (lay persons)- are to have as St. Pope John Paul II noted a “secular character”. They are not called to the cloister.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

There is no doubt in my mind that God wants me to live in solitude. I tried fighting against it time and time again, to no avail.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

"The “world” thus becomes the place and the means for the lay faithful to fulfill their Christian vocation, because the world itself is destined to glorify God the Father in Christ. The Council is able then to indicate the proper and special sense of the divine vocation which is directed to the lay faithful. They are not called to abandon the position that they have in the world. Baptism does not take them from the world at all, as the apostle Paul points out: “So, brethren, in whatever state each was called, there let him remain with God” (1 Cor 7:24). On the contrary, he entrusts a vocation to them that properly concerns their situation in the world. The lay faithful, in fact, “are called by God so that they, led by the spirit of the Gospel, might contribute to the sanctification of the world, as from within like leaven, by fulfilling their own particular duties. Thus, especially in this way of life, resplendent in faith, hope and charity they manifest Christ to others”(37).Thus for the lay faithful, to be present and active in the world is not only an anthropological and sociological reality, but in a specific way, a theological and ecclesiological reality as well. In fact, in their situation in the world God manifests his plan and communicates to them their particular vocation of “seeking the Kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and by ordering them according to the plan of God”(38).

Precisely with this in mind the Synod Fathers said: “The secular character of the lay faithful is not therefore to be defined only in a sociological sense, but most especially in a theological sense. The term secular must be understood in light of the act of God the creator and redeemer, who has handed over the world to women and men, so that they may participate in the work of creation, free creation from the influence of sin and sanctify themselves in marriage or the celibate life, in a family, in a profession and in the various activities of society”(39).

The lay faithful’s position in the Church, then, comes to be fundamentally defined by their newness in Christian life and distinguished by their secular character(40).

The images taken from the gospel of salt, light and leaven, although indiscriminately applicable to all Jesus’ disciples, are specifically applied to the lay faithful. They are particularly meaningful images because they speak not only of the deep involvement and the full participation of the lay faithful in the affairs of the earth, the world and the human community, but also and above all, they tell of the radical newness and unique character of an involvement and participation which has as its purpose the spreading of the Gospel that brings salvation."

Pope St. John Paul II

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

 

[Robert_Sock]

"The “world” thus becomes the place and the means for the lay faithful to fulfill their Christian vocation, because the world itself is destined to glorify God the Father in Christ. The Council is able then to indicate the proper and special sense of the divine vocation which is directed to the lay faithful. They are not called to abandon the position that they have in the world. Baptism does not take them from the world at all, as the apostle Paul points out: “So, brethren, in whatever state each was called, there let him remain with God” (1 Cor 7:24). On the contrary, he entrusts a vocation to them that properly concerns their situation in the world. The lay faithful, in fact, “are called by God so that they, led by the spirit of the Gospel, might contribute to the sanctification of the world, as from within like leaven, by fulfilling their own particular duties. Thus, especially in this way of life, resplendent in faith, hope and charity they manifest Christ to others”(37).Thus for the lay faithful, to be present and active in the world is not only an anthropological and sociological reality, but in a specific way, a theological and ecclesiological reality as well. In fact, in their situation in the world God manifests his plan and communicates to them their particular vocation of “seeking the Kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and by ordering them according to the plan of God”(38).

Precisely with this in mind the Synod Fathers said: “The secular character of the lay faithful is not therefore to be defined only in a sociological sense, but most especially in a theological sense. The term secular must be understood in light of the act of God the creator and redeemer, who has handed over the world to women and men, so that they may participate in the work of creation, free creation from the influence of sin and sanctify themselves in marriage or the celibate life, in a family, in a profession and in the various activities of society”(39).

The lay faithful’s position in the Church, then, comes to be fundamentally defined by their newness in Christian life and distinguished by their secular character(40).

The images taken from the gospel of salt, light and leaven, although indiscriminately applicable to all Jesus’ disciples, are specifically applied to the lay faithful. They are particularly meaningful images because they speak not only of the deep involvement and the full participation of the lay faithful in the affairs of the earth, the world and the human community, but also and above all, they tell of the radical newness and unique character of an involvement and participation which has as its purpose the spreading of the Gospel that brings salvation."

Pope St. John Paul II

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

That’s enlightening! My problem may be that I’m always wanting to lead the lay people up the ladder of spiritual contemplation, when in fact, they may not be able to.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

That’s enlightening! My problem may be that I’m always wanting to lead the lay people up the ladder of spiritual contemplation, when in fact, they may not be able to.

You are lay person yourself…

(as am I)

As to contemplation -such can very much be a reality outside the cloister - and in lives that do not look like that of the cloister.

Life in the world does not exclude spiritual contemplation. Even at a ballgame.

 

[Robert_Sock]

As to contemplation -such can very much be a reality outside the cloister - and in lives that do not look like that of the cloister.

That’s good to hear.

Life in the world does not exclude spiritual contemplation. Even at a ballgame.

Yes, I agree.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

Now to the question of “loving God with your whole heart…etc”:

"And "the love of God and of neighbor does not fall under the precept according to a certain measure only . . . as is evident from the very form of the precept, which implies perfection and totality: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul, thy whole mind, thy whole strength, and thy neighbor as thyself.’ This is why the Apostle says (I Tim., 1): the end of the commandment is charity. Now the end does not admit of measure—measure applies only to means.[15]

According to Saint Bernard’s saying, the measure of loving God is to love Him without measure—“modus diligendi, sine modo diligere.”
…

Perfection is not a mathematical point. It is a life in state of growth; there are degrees in perfection. What is prescribed by the precept is to tend to perfection as to an end, and when one has begun to make his way towards it he is already accomplishing the precept; and one begins to make his way towards it as soon as he has charity. It is in this sense that Saint Thomas tells us: “Since what falls under the precept can be accomplished in diverse ways, one does not sin against the precept by the fact alone that he does not fulfill it in the best way; it suffices, for the precept not to be transgressed, that it be accomplished in one way or another.”[16] And Cajetan writes: “The perfection of charity is commanded as an end; and we must wish to attain the end, the whole end. But precisely because it is an end, it suffices, for a man not to transgress the precept, that he be in the state of attaining this perfection one day, even if in eternity. Whoever possesses charity, even in the feeblest degree, and is thus advancing towards Heaven, is in the way of perfect charity, and consequently avoids the transgression of the precept…”[17]

It is only in Heaven where the soul sees God face to face that the precept is accomplished in an entirely perfect way. But there is a perfection of charity compatible with the present life, a perfection in state of growth; it implies “the exclusion of all things which are repugnant to the movement of love towards God”—the exclusion not only of mortal sin, but also of “all that hinders the affection of the soul from tending entirely towards God.”[18] And thus, whatever may be the vocation of each, the saying of Saint John of the Cross concerns us all: “In the evening of this life you will be judged according to your love.”

~ Jacques and Raissa Martain “Liturgy and Contemplation”

 

[Bookcat]

Now to the question of “loving God with your whole heart…etc”:

"And "the love of God and of neighbor does not fall under the precept according to a certain measure only . . . as is evident from the very form of the precept, which implies perfection and totality: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul, thy whole mind, thy whole strength, and thy neighbor as thyself.’ This is why the Apostle says (I Tim., 1): the end of the commandment is charity. Now the end does not admit of measure—measure applies only to means.[15]

According to Saint Bernard’s saying, the measure of loving God is to love Him without measure—“modus diligendi, sine modo diligere.”
…

Perfection is not a mathematical point. It is a life in state of growth; there are degrees in perfection. What is prescribed by the precept is to tend to perfection as to an end, and when one has begun to make his way towards it he is already accomplishing the precept; and one begins to make his way towards it as soon as he has charity. It is in this sense that Saint Thomas tells us: “Since what falls under the precept can be accomplished in diverse ways, one does not sin against the precept by the fact alone that he does not fulfill it in the best way; it suffices, for the precept not to be transgressed, that it be accomplished in one way or another.”[16] And Cajetan writes: “The perfection of charity is commanded as an end; and we must wish to attain the end, the whole end. But precisely because it is an end, it suffices, for a man not to transgress the precept, that he be in the state of attaining this perfection one day, even if in eternity. Whoever possesses charity, even in the feeblest degree, and is thus advancing towards Heaven, is in the way of perfect charity, and consequently avoids the transgression of the precept…”[17]

It is only in Heaven where the soul sees God face to face that the precept is accomplished in an entirely perfect way. But there is a perfection of charity compatible with the present life, a perfection in state of growth; it implies “the exclusion of all things which are repugnant to the movement of love towards God”—the exclusion not only of mortal sin, but also of “all that hinders the affection of the soul from tending entirely towards God.”[18] And thus, whatever may be the vocation of each, the saying of Saint John of the Cross concerns us all: “In the evening of this life you will be judged according to your love.”

~ Jacques and Raissa Martain “Liturgy and Contemplation”

 

[Bookcat]

Let’s see…

If I had a choice of going bowling with some friends or going to pray before the blessed Sacrament.

Do I sin if I choose bowling? Is it not Loving God as much as I can?

No.

Not per se.

Now could it be a better thing to choose the prayer? It could yes - certainly objectively it is better. It could be more perfect to do so.

But I need not choose always the “better”.

Now if I say - I choseto go get drunk out of my mind while bowling -that choice would be sinful and contrary to the Love of God (mortal sin).

I might even grow very much in my charity -for God and neighbor more while bowling that night. Perhaps even have a moment of contemplation in the midst of it.

 

[ready]

I need to say that we should think of God all day. God bless you.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I need to say that we should think of God all day. God bless you.

Hi Ready!!!

I’ll add that we should all be willing to sacrifice any worldly pleasure, at any point in time, to demonstrate our love of God. It can be a lot harder than it sounds when we are all pumped-up with the anticipation in receiving such worldly pleasures, like when we are really looking forward to watching an exciting football game. I often fail here, and I now pray to God for the grace to accomplish this.

LOVE!

 

[ready]

Hi Ready!!!

I’ll add that we should all be willing to sacrifice any worldly pleasure, at any point in time, to demonstrate our love of God. It can be a lot harder than it sounds when we are all pumped-up with the anticipation in receiving such worldly pleasures, like when we are really looking forward to watching an exciting football game. I often fail here, and I now pray to God for the grace to accomplish this.

LOVE!

Yes, we should at any point in time be willing to demonstrate our love of God by sacrificing a mere worldly pleasure. God bless you.

 

[Nihilist]

Mark 12:30 RSV
and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’

I feel that I’m sinning when ever I fall short of this commandment of Christ, such as when I used to watch a football game.

LOVE!

It’s seems God is beyond all conceptions, all we know. We cannot love God as a known subject- we can only love Him as being beyond all.

So, the greatest love we can show God is hatred of all else that isn’t God- which is everything. “Whoever does not hate mother, father, yes, even life itself, is not worthy of me…”
“Thou shalt not love this world, nor anything that is in the world.”

To love something other than God, is to reduce one’s love for God.

However- I’ve been wrong about pretty much everything in life so far, so I’m probably wrong about this too…

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, we should at any point in time be willing to demonstrate our love of God by sacrificing a mere worldly pleasure. God bless you.

As I noted above though - one must be careful with such. In practice some can head down wrong paths …undue fears, etc

 

[Bookcat]

It’s seems God is beyond all conceptions, all we know. We cannot love God as a known subject- we can only love Him as being beyond all.

So, the greatest love we can show God is hatred of all else that isn’t God- which is everything. “Whoever does not hate mother, father, yes, even life itself, is not worthy of me…”
“Thou shalt not love this world, nor anything that is in the world.”

To love something other than God, is to reduce one’s love for God.

However- I’ve been wrong about pretty much everything in life so far, so I’m probably wrong about this too…

“Hatred” there is a semitic way of speaking. A figure of speech if you will. It is NOT meant as “hate” but is a way of making the point that we Love Jesus above all - discipleship. Love the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - above all.

Similar to - if your hand causes you to sin -cut it off! Jesus does not mean run and get the axe.

The “not love this world” or “anything in this world”* does not mean* one cannot love in an ordered way - trees, rocks, beauty, family, the good Gifts of God …as Sacred Scripture says all of creation is good and to be received with thanksgiving…

The term “world” gets used in different senses in Scripture and Spiritual writers. For example It can refer to “that which is of sin” - not creation.

 

[Robert_Sock]

As I noted above though - one must be careful with such. In practice some can head down wrong paths …undue fears, etc

Do you personally feel that it’s sinful to ignore an “inner prompting” that tells us to sacrifice a particular worldly pleasure? Would you personally listen to this type of an inner prompting?

LOVE!