Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

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tqualey said:
Hi, CaptFun,

Ah, but to know the future we would have done some many things differently… 😃 Pray and then do the right thing.

Here is a quote I enjoy:

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
― Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

God bless
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👍 I like it Tom! And I really like a lot of the “sign off” quotes some of our posters here have. Praying … always good counsel … often procrastinated about or forgotten to our detriment. :gopray2::newidea: _ now I know what I’ll DO!
 
If any of you go to an “examination of Conscience” site, you will find listed amongst the Mortal Sins “Voting for a pro-abortion andidate/politician”. This is not an opinion, but fact!
I will expound further on that fact: doing anything that gets a pro-abortion candidate elected is also a Mortal Sin. That would also include voting for a 3rd party candidate which would syphon off votes from a pro-life candidate.
For any of you who are capable of doing political research, I suggest you find out who is financing 3rd party candidates in the forthcoming Presidential election. I’ll bet you that a lot of the financing is coming from wealthy individuals who jointly are financing the Democratic party or Obama’s campaign. Unfortunately, many of these candidates are so-called pro-lifers who will accept contributions from anyone who can keep them in the race and never consider the consequences.
That is the nasty face of politics.
 
Democrat evils: culture of death–euthiasia, abortion and homosexual marriage; welfare state; big government overeach (no subsidiarity); anti-religious freedom.

Republican evils: big corperation/buisness (no subsidiarity, anti-small buisness); pre-emptive wars; death penalty; over spending on defense; puritanical laws (anti-alcohol, drugs… etc.); anti-intellectualism; anti-UN; anti-environment.

The democrats are much more evil than the republicans but the republicans still have serious flaws.
 
Romney is a shady character, a liar and crooked. I will not be voting for him.
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I agree that he’s shady. But I think our church leaders have basically made the case that we can’t have another 4 years of Obama. He’s too evil. I think we almost have no choice than to support Romney. At least he picked Paul Ryan. That is good enough for me.
 
I will expound further on that fact: doing anything that gets a pro-abortion candidate elected is also a Mortal Sin. That would also include voting for a 3rd party candidate which would syphon off votes from a pro-life candidate.
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Romney isn’t pro-life for one, he supports abortion for cases of rape and incest. But, your opinion on what’s a mortal sin is really just your opinion. It’s as authoritative as my opinion that blindly supporting the republican party in its pre-emptive warfare as a catholic is sinful.
 
George_Stegmeir said:
If any of you go to an “examination of Conscience” site, you will find listed amongst the Mortal Sins “Voting for a pro-abortion andidate/politician”. This is not an opinion, but fact!
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An “examination of conscience” web site does not constitute definitive Catholic doctrine. Did you see an imprimatur and nil obstat there too?
I will expound further on that fact: doing anything that gets a pro-abortion candidate elected is also a Mortal Sin. That would also include voting for a 3rd party candidate which would syphon off votes from a pro-life candidate.
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Even if that 3rd party candidate is more pro-life? Think about it. Do you really think it is a mortal sin to make an incorrect mathematical calculation about the probability of a particular candidate beng elected? Or even to hope against hope that your candidate will get elected despite the low odds?
For any of you who are capable of doing political research, I suggest you find out who is financing 3rd party candidates in the forthcoming Presidential election. I’ll bet you that a lot of the financing is coming from wealthy individuals who jointly are financing the Democratic party or Obama’s campaign. Unfortunately, many of these candidates are so-called pro-lifers who will accept contributions from anyone who can keep them in the race and never consider the consequences.
That is the nasty face of politics.
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That may or may not be true. But such an investigation clearly lies in the realm of prudential judgement about the application of Church doctrine to practical cases. In such cases faithful Catholics of good will may disagree over these questions.
 
Obama and Romney, both funded by the same people and run on a very similar platform(Romney being the false “right”, and Obama being the left. Both are truly left). They are both Capitalists who don’t have the church in their best thoughts. A vote will do little good, prepping for bigger things will do much good 🙂
 
Hi, Pork Roll,

Now, hold on a minute… I really do not think this is merely an ‘opinion’. Let’s just take a look at objective evidence. First of all, there are three criteria for a mortal sin:

Grave matter. Full knowledge. Full consent.

The Church has already identified that promoting abortion in any way is grave matter. Voting for those who promote abortion places one in the camp of championing what is truly evil. Additionally, while there are other evils in this world - abortion is the first thing that must be stopped because nothing is more evil then the taking of innocent human life. Evangelium Vitae and Humanae Vitae are clear on this. Here is a link where you can research these encyclicals and many, many others: papalencyclicals.net/

I honesly do not see how anyone - especially any one on this site could claim ignorance of Church teaching. We are all expected to be informed voters - and the pro-abortion position of our President, Vice-President, Secretary of Health & Human Services and virtually every appointment to the Federal Bench by our President has been a pro-abortion appointment. This says nothing about the millions of tax dollars that have been funneled to Planned Parenthood as has been publicly disclosed in the media and in the Church announcements.

As I see it, anyone at this time claiming vincible ignorance (newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm ) of what position Obama has on abortion would have to face God with such a statement. I guess in theory this can be done - but I don’t see how anyone can claim it is either ‘OK’ to vote for Obama or to not vote at all when so much information and documentation has been provided to lay bare the murderous and deceitful position of our President.

To vote means to make a conscious choice - and that requires one’s full consent.

George Stegmeir said that voting for an pro-abortion candidate is a mortal sin on an examination of conscience web site. I happen to use the, “Mea Culpa” app for my iPhone (and, by the way, I am really quite happy with its features). This particular app groups sins by the Commandment that they have violated. In the category, “You shall not kill” it states: “Knowingly voting for someonewho is pro-abortion”. We are called upon to take a stand for Good and against Evil - and in 72 days from today we will all have the official opportunity to do just that. Don’t throw this priceless gift away.

These honesly look like objective - and accurate - statements to me.

Of course, you can claim that this is my opinion on the matter - and, you would be correct. But, my position is an informed opinion with the facts presented for all to see. There is no blanket cover that would claim, “My opinion is as good as yours…and, since it is mine- it is the one I am going with!” Now, let me invite you to refute anything presented here.

I think the criteria for a mortal sin are clearly stated and there really is a mortal sin on an examination of conscience site ( meaculpaapp.com/ - and, it is free!) for voting for a pro-abortion candidate. If you think there is an error here, please present your case.

God bless

Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/Three_criteria_for_act_to_be_a_mortal_sin#ixzz24eV1E2FY
Pork_Roll said:
Romney isn’t pro-life for one, he supports abortion for cases of rape and incest. But, your opinion on what’s a mortal sin is really just your opinion. It’s as authoritative as my opinion that blindly supporting the republican party in its pre-emptive warfare as a catholic is sinful.
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tqualey said:
Hi, Pork Roll,

Now, hold on a minute… I really do not think this is merely an ‘opinion’. Let’s just take a look at objective evidence. First of all, there are three criteria for a mortal sin:

Grave matter. Full knowledge. Full consent.

The Church has already identified that promoting abortion in any way is grave matter.
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But the interpretation of what constitutes “promoting” is open to discussion and opinion.
I honesly do not see how anyone - especially any one on this site could claim ignorance of Church teaching.
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It is not Church teaching that is being questioned. It is the application of Church teaching to specific circumstances. Your conclusions from Church teaching seem reasonable to you, and that is fine. But please recognize that other faithful Catholics who are equally well informed on current events may apply that teaching differently than you. You are free to make your case for your interpretation, but is still your interpretation (as you said later in your posting, I now see.)

And as I said regarding George’s posting, do you see an imprimatur and nil obstat on that examination of conscience web site? If not, then use it if it appeals to you, but do not use it to support a claim of something being Church doctrine.

Now on the level of individual interpretations, let me ask you a question about yours. Do you hold the belief that any action taken (possibly outside the realm of voting) that in any way hurts a pro-life cause is a sin, even if some personal good comes of it? Take for instance this case: You are trying to sell your house. Your real estate agent suggests you hold an open house next Saturday. So you clean up your house and the yard so it looks the most appealing, and everything is ready. Now it so happens that next Tuesday is an important election relating to abortion. A friend of yours offers you one of his home-made pro-life yard signs to put on your lawn. It is reasonably well-done, but very in-your-face with a picture of an aborted fetus. You agree that it does make the point well and so you put it up. Now on the morning of the open house your real estate agent suggests that your yard sign might offend some of the people looking at your house and that you would have a better chance of getting a good offer for your home if you take down the yard sign just for the 4 hours of the open house. And so you take it down and put in the garage during the open house. By taking the action you did you prevented what might have been an opportunity for spreading the word about what was at stake in the election, and so you hurt the pro-life cause a little. Was that a sin?
 
Hi, LeafByNiggle,

Interesting.

You somehow managed to only selectively quote what I gave and then tell me what I have already told you: this is my opinion. I do not speak for the chair - but, I can read the authorative documents (I gave out the links - you may want to read them and then tell me where they fall short of the mark on clarity concerning our responsibility not to promote abortion) and make an informed decision.

This dancing around the issue with “That’s your opinion and I don’t share it” is meaningless. The popes have been clear about abortion being gravely sinful - and do you dispute this? The US Catholic Bishops have been clear about abortion being gravely sinful - do you dispute this? So, tell me, just where do you get the idea that this is just some vague opinion of mine that has no bearing on what is going on and can be dismissed with the flick of a wrist and replaced with an opinon more in agreement with what you want?

Ultimately, we are all going to be held responsible for how we vote. The issue is not ‘Did you vote Republican or Democrat?’ but rather, ‘Did you vote your conscience?’ Naturally, if your conscious tells you that abortion and those who promote it are acceptable and the teachings of the Catholic Church are just a bunch of opinons without weight and deserving of no more consideration then one would give to a weather report on a sunny day - then fine. I and others have done all that we can do to advise that Obama stands for abortion and the Catholic Church stands for life. You have a responsibility to do good and avoid evil. Voting for Obama is promoting abortion and that is evil. If you want to dance around that - that is your business and you and others who do in like manner will be held accountable.

After reading this you may decide to do something more then just dance around the issue. So, here is what you need to do: present a logical argument that would allow a Catholic to vote for Obama in good conscious. If I may be so bold … use the example I gave you in quoting Chruch documents and statements to support your position. I honestly would be interested in reading such a presentation.

Now, concerning your question - there is a section on CAF ‘Ask an Apologist’ where such an issue may be appropriately brought. I recommend you copy and paste your question and send it to them - and then create your own thread for others to see and discuss what they think about it.

My suggestion is for you to stay on topic for this thread.

God bless
LeafByNiggle said:
But the interpretation of what constitutes “promoting” is open to discussion and opinion.

It is not Church teaching that is being questioned. It is the application of Church teaching to specific circumstances. Your conclusions from Church teaching seem reasonable to you, and that is fine. But please recognize that other faithful Catholics who are equally well informed on current events may apply that teaching differently than you. You are free to make your case for your interpretation, but is still your interpretation (as you said later in your posting, I now see.)

And as I said regarding George’s posting, do you see an imprimatur and nil obstat on that examination of conscience web site? If not, then use it if it appeals to you, but do not use it to support a claim of something being Church doctrine.

Now on the level of individual interpretations, let me ask you a question about yours. Do you hold the belief that any action taken (possibly outside the realm of voting) that in any way hurts a pro-life cause is a sin, even if some personal good comes of it? Take for instance this case: You are trying to sell your house. Your real estate agent suggests you hold an open house next Saturday. So you clean up your house and the yard so it looks the most appealing, and everything is ready. Now it so happens that next Tuesday is an important election relating to abortion. A friend of yours offers you one of his home-made pro-life yard signs to put on your lawn. It is reasonably well-done, but very in-your-face with a picture of an aborted fetus. You agree that it does make the point well and so you put it up. Now on the morning of the open house your real estate agent suggests that your yard sign might offend some of the people looking at your house and that you would have a better chance of getting a good offer for your home if you take down the yard sign just for the 4 hours of the open house. And so you take it down and put in the garage during the open house. By taking the action you did you prevented what might have been an opportunity for spreading the word about what was at stake in the election, and so you hurt the pro-life cause a little. Was that a sin?
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Hi, Tampa Dave,

Good for you!

What is really necessary - actually it is required - is that we stand with Christ and move in the direction that His Spirit is leading His Church. Indeed, we are to let the little children come to him - and letting them do so as developed and muture human beings instead of shattered and mauled clumps of flesh as the remains of the abortionist’s trade is how we will be judged.

God bless - and be sure you are safe from this storm that is blowing your way!!
Tampa_Dave said:
I’m a Catholic realist. I will vote for Romney. Period.
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Pork_Roll said:
Romney isn’t pro-life for one, he supports abortion for cases of rape and incest. But, your opinion on what’s a mortal sin is really just your opinion. It’s as authoritative as my opinion that blindly supporting the republican party in its pre-emptive warfare as a catholic is sinful.
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And yet he chose Robert Bork to advise on judicial appointments/supreme court justice choices. That choice by Romney weakens your argument a great deal.

Ishii
 
And yet he chose Robert Bork to advise on judicial appointments/supreme court justice choices. That choice by Romney weakens your argument a great deal.
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What does this have to do with Romney supporting abortion in cases of rape and incest? It’s a fact, just like the fact that Romney supported the Wall Street bailouts.
 
Pork_Roll said:
What does this have to do with Romney supporting abortion in cases of rape and incest? It’s a fact, just like the fact that Romney supported the Wall Street bailouts.
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It shows that Romney is serious about choosing constructionist supreme court justices in the mold of Scalia - and who would vote to overturn Roe V Wade. That is how we will allow states to reform our abortion laws so that they are more in line with catholic moral teaching. Without Romney winning, choosing good jusices, and overturning Roe V Wade, it doesn’t really matter if Romney’s views on abortion are 70% or 80% or 85% in line with Catholic teaching. Keep in mind that Obama is 0% in line with Catholic teaching.

Ishii
 
Jeffrey said:
Not even close. obama is the worst… i’ll bet jimmy carter is happy.
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Personally I think Jimmy Carter wishes he hadn’t embraced Roe vs Wade as much as he did. He’s on record as stating the Democratic Party should now tone down its pro-abortion rhetoric.
 
ishii said:
And yet he chose Robert Bork to advise on judicial appointments/supreme court justice choices. That choice by Romney weakens your argument a great deal.
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IMO, no more so than Obama did by appointing Paul Volcker as an advisor to his financial committees.

That said, it might give them more balance but why the need to do so? Just a question I would have.
 
ProVobis said:
IMO, no more so than Obama did by appointing Paul Volcker as an advisor to his financial committees.

That said, it might give them more balance but why the need to do so? Just a question I would have.
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I think Bork advising Romney on justices is way different than Paul Volcker advising Obama on financial committees. I mean come on, its the supreme court.

Ishii
 
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