Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[ishii]

No, the sin will be judged by God alone, not the Republican Party. The Church has never said there is even the tiniest bit of any sin voting third party. It is a conclusion one may come to personally, as eating meat might be something one is compelled by conscient to give up. What you call sin, is **not **the teaching of the Catholic Church.

On the contrary, I think we have the ability to call something a sin. We can’t judge the person - and I wasn’t doing that. And why do you imply that my post is “the Republican party” judging? Consider pnewton:

A million unborn killed every year. The most pro-abortion president ever running for re-election in order to continue his pro-abortion policies. And Romney running against Obama - who picked pro-life Catholic Paul Ryan as his vice president and pro-life Catholic Robert Bork to advise on supreme court justice appointments. It is a no-brainer. Again, I am sure there are those who just don’t get it - they are perhaps invincibly ignorant. Other’s are just caught up in their stubborn pride - they hate Republicans, or Mormons. But for most, this should be an easy decision. Based on what I know about Obama, and what I know about Romney, I think it would be a possible grave sin for me to not vote for Romney.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

I agree that it would be negligent to not vote Obama out of office. I’m not sure that the nation can survive another four years of his administration, and even less sure that religious liberty can withstand another four years of assault. And I’m certain that he will do nothing to stop the debt bubble. It will burst under his next administration, plunging us into economic chaos.

It goes without saying, of course, that the speakers lined up for the DNC convention also concern me:

Sandra Fluke, spokeswoman for free contraception and sterilization under the HHS mandate
Nancy Keenan, head of NARAL Pro-Choice America
Cecile Richards, head of Planned Parenthood

I simply can’t imagine the Democratic Party of John F. Kennedy with such a lineup, regardless of what Caroline will say at the convention.

The Republican party offers Paul Ryan, Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley, Jeb Bush. The Democrat party offers - head of NARAL and pro-abortion speakers. But there are still those who say, “there’s no difference between two parties.” They are confused.

Ishii

 

[pnewton]

On the contrary, I think we have the ability to call something a sin.

Well, that I guess is an ability you have that I do not. I will never presume to call anything a sin apart from what Mother Church has called sin. I do not wish to elevate my opinion that high. When someone says like earlier that voting for a third party is a sin, I see a mindset, that one elevates their own theological opinions above the Church. That may be okay in some denominations in America, but it is not Catholic.

 

[ishii]

Well, that I guess is an ability you have that I do not. I will never presume to call anything a sin apart from what Mother Church has called sin. I do not wish to elevate my opinion that high.

We do, based on our knowlege of Catholic teaching and catechism. Did you think I meant something else?

Ishii

 

[pnewton]

We do, based on our knowlege of Catholic teaching and catechism. Did you think I meant something else?

Ishii

That is the difference between us. You “base on” and extrapolate. I quote. Satan’s temptations were “based on” scripture. Why not just speak where the Church speaks and in all other areas allow charity?

 

[ishii]

That is the difference between us. You “base on” and extrapolate. I quote. Satan’s temptations were “based on” scripture. Why not just speak where the Church speaks and in all other areas allow charity?

I’m sorry you don’t have the ability to judge what is a sin and what’s not a sin. How do you examine your conscience?

Ishii

 

[pnewton]

I’m sorry you don’t have the ability to judge what is a sin and what’s not a sin. How do you examine your conscience?

Ishii

I did not say that. You misquote and misunerstand me. I said I do not have the ability to call anything a sin. I will accept what the Church says, but not decide beyond that what is objectively sinful. Something may be personally sinful, but that is not something we can preach to others (as Catholic, anyway).

I can respect those who fill that they need to vote for someone who has said he believe in the right to abortion in the case of rape. I may even do so myself. I can not accept that any vote accept for that man is some sort of object sin.

 

[SeekNFind]

My suggestion is to just review how you have painted both of these politicians - **I suggest you identify what it is in Obama that has you drawn to him **- at least to the ballot box. Obama is clearly the greater of two evils - and his promotion of abortion is directly in opposition to Catholic teachings. Romney is not that way.

God bless

I don’t recall saying I was drawn to Obama or that I was voting for him? I only know I’m not voting for Romney.

 

[larsont7]

This will be my first election (been voting since 1992) where I cannot in good conscience vote for the “lesser of two evils”. IMHO, Obama and Romney will lead us down the same path over the next 4 years. It’s not a matter of who’s can turn this country around anymore. It’s a matter of who’s going to take it down faster. And Romney, based on his past history (not his “current” political beliefs), is Obama-lite.

I probably wouldn’t be this antagonistic towards this election if it hadn’t been for Republican-appointed “conservative” Justice John Roberts voting in favor of the HHS Mandate. That pretty much made me lose all faith in our political system, and I will be voting for a third party this year, even if it means Obama getting reelected.

I see revolution coming soon, and I’m normally not this much of a naysayer. May God have mercy on our great nation!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pnewton,

I really think this has been addressed in Post #421 - and you are really misreading what has been said. Here’s the idea: the Catholic Church has identified abortion as grave matter. Those who engage in promoting, encouraging, supporting abortion - are cooperating with evil. In my opinion, there is no basis to claim that one can vote for the most pro-abortion President in US history and not support the evil he has promoted.

Why not try that ‘simply reading’ again.

“Abortion and euthanasia have become preeminent threats to human life and dignity because
they directly attack life itself, the most fundamental good and the condition for all
others” (no. 5). Abortion, the deliberate killing of a human being before birth, is
never morally acceptable and must always be opposed.” old.usccb.org/bishops/FCStatement.pdf

So, Pnewton, you tell me - how do you OPPOSE abortion by voting for him?

No one said they were claiming others have committed a mortal sin - but, I am telling you that based on Catholic Church teachings - we can not cooperate with evil - and aboriton is evil and never morally acceptable. This is grave matter.

Draw your own conclusions - and, please, unlike other posters - just give a clear answer. There are 70 days remaining before this election. There is not time for a game of words.

God bless

This is so untrue. Even a simple reading of Faithful Citizenship will show that this is a false.

It is a good thing posters here have no authority to label mortal sin for others. I can’t believe Catholics here would really put more credence in apps, emails and web sites that on Church teaching.

 

[ProVobis]

Here’s the idea: the Catholic Church has identified abortion as grave matter.

The Catholic Church has also identified unjust wars as a grave matter. Abortion may be graver but simply calling yourself “pro-life” doesn’t make the evils of spending another $2 trillion on the military (while doing nothing to help the mothers deliver babies in the U.S.) go away. This is my problem with the Republican Party.

 

[rlg94086]

Much like voting for the GOP.

I don’t think the GOP is up for vote. I’ve not once voted for the GOP.

 

[rlg94086]

Asks, like your co-workers ask. I phrased it in a question for a reason, namely, that I do vote, even though my vote has a 1/8000000th of a say in who our electors go to. As my state is as far from a pivotal state as can be, I think I am accurate in labeling it ineffectual. Thus, why would I be considered dumb for voting for a third party?

I have seen it “decided” that a third party can not win, yet you find my statement strange (based on the Mickey Mouse comment). I desire to convince no one (unlike most here). I prefer to follow the Chuch on this one and allow all to use their informed conscience.

My comment was in response to your claim that your vote is ineffectual. If that is what you believe, then Mickey Mouse is as good a vote as any.

I prefer to follow the Church on this, as well, but I don’t base my vote on the self-defeating idea that it won’t have an impact anyway. I vote for the best candidate, closest to my values that has a realistic chance at being elected.

 

[JimG]

This will be my first election (been voting since 1992) where I cannot in good conscience vote for the “lesser of two evils”. IMHO, Obama and Romney will lead us down the same path over the next 4 years. It’s not a matter of who’s can turn this country around anymore. It’s a matter of who’s going to take it down faster. And Romney, based on his past history (not his “current” political beliefs), is Obama-lite.

I probably wouldn’t be this antagonistic towards this election if it hadn’t been for Republican-appointed “conservative” Justice John Roberts voting in favor of the HHS Mandate. That pretty much made me lose all faith in our political system, and I will be voting for a third party this year, even if it means Obama getting reelected.

I see revolution coming soon, and I’m normally not this much of a naysayer. May God have mercy on our great nation!

Are you saying you would prefer to have a re-elected Obama name several justices to the supreme court, with the idea that they might be better than Roberts? That seems unlikely to me.

Also, I think it’s a mistake to try to rely on the Court to undo legislative mistakes. The people ought to do that themselves by electing different legislators.

 

[ProVobis]

Also, I think it’s a mistake to try to rely on the Court to undo legislative mistakes. The people ought to do that themselves by electing different legislators.

Just as a reminder, Roe vs Wade was not a legislative mistake nor was it ever passed by Congress. The mostly-Republican-appointed Supreme Court took on the issue by itself. In a most arrogant fashion IMO.

 

[JimG]

Just as a reminder, Roe vs Wade was not a legislative mistake nor was it ever passed by Congress. The mostly-Republican-appointed Supreme Court took on the issue by itself. In a most arrogant fashion IMO.

Exactly right. Obamacare was a legislative mistake. Roe v Wade was an unnecessary making of new law by the Court. As such, it ought to be overturned. I doubt that Obama appointees will be somehow better on such issues than Romney appointees, given the pro-abortion tilt of his entire administration.

 

[zab]

Catholic Voter Quandary
youtube.com/watch?v=dRjL7Am_Fhk&feature=plcp

I haven’t been keeping up with this thread, so I apologize if this video has already been posted. While I have at times been in conflict with some of what comes off of the Vortex videos, I happen to be in agreement with this one. I’m tired of having to vote for evil at all even if it is the lesser evil, but what other choice do we have in this election?

 

[ProVobis]

Exactly right. Obamacare was a legislative mistake. Roe v Wade was an unnecessary making of new law by the Court. As such, it ought to be overturned. I doubt that Obama appointees will be somehow better on such issues than Romney appointees, given the pro-abortion tilt of his entire administration.

This may be but IMO it will still take a bipartisan effort to reduce the number of abortions performed. I understand this number has stabilized at about 1.2 million per year for quite some time now, but even one is one too many.

 

[ProVobis]

The Republican party offers Paul Ryan, Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley, Jeb Bush. The Democrat party offers - head of NARAL and pro-abortion speakers. But there are still those who say, “there’s no difference between two parties.” They are confused.

Well, philosophically speaking, if only one party is the party of pro-abortion, then it will eventually wipe itself out of existence, regardless of how one votes. I don’t think they want that to happen.

 

[ProVobis]

And Romney running against Obama - who picked pro-life Catholic Paul Ryan as his vice president and pro-life Catholic Robert Bork to advise on supreme court justice appointments. It is a no-brainer.

So how does one explain why Ron Paul, probably the most anti-abortion and anti-war member of the House, was shut out/off by the RNC for the second straight time?