Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

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je333 said:
No his administration has not attacked the Catholic Church. He has appointed many Catholics in top government positions. He is willing to work with the Catholic Church and visited many Catholic institutions and met with the Pope in the Vatican!
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This administration loves to co-opt left wing Catholics who can be useful in selling a pro-abortion administration to Catholics. See “The Catholic Con Continues”
catholicworldreport.com/Item/1537/the_catholic_con_continues.aspx

Every bishop in the nation opposes the HHS mandate and still the administration refuses to compromise. Catholic dioceses and Catholic institutions have had to sue to try to protect their religious liberty. We can only hope the lawsuits are successful.
 
je333 said:
No his administration has not attacked the Catholic Church. He has appointed many Catholics in top government positions. He is willing to work with the Catholic Church and visited many Catholic institutions and met with the Pope in the Vatican!
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I can’t decide if you are trolling this forum, if you have been living under a rock for the past four years, or if you are being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, he has appointed Catholics. Dissident Catholics who openly disagree with and defy Church teaching. Dissident Catholics who are the authors of the HHS Mandate that EVERY SINGLE Bishop in the United States has spoken out against. Yes, he has met with Catholics. He did so when he lied at Notre Dame by promising to respect our consciences. He did so again when he lied to Cardinal Dolan by promising the same thing and then lectured him on Catholic social teaching as if Cardinal Dolan needed such a thing.
 
je333 said:
No his administration has not attacked the Catholic Church.
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I do not think any presidency in the history of America has received as much negative response from Catholic bishops as the present one has. Of course, Paul Ryan has fared well this year either.
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Je333,

Your last question really indicates a lack of knowledge of how the US government is designed. Should someone else replace Obama in November - one who will not promote abrotions - there will still be abortions. Period. The only way abortions will stop in this country is if the US Supreme Court reverses itself or there is a Constitutional Amendment. There really isn’t any other way.

God bless
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This really isn’t just about abortion. As one CAF member has said “This in a nutshell really is about some people see more limitations on their choices and freedoms while other people gain choices and freedoms which they had no access to before.”
 
je333 said:
No his administration has not attacked the Catholic Church. He has appointed many Catholics in top government positions. He is willing to work with the Catholic Church and visited many Catholic institutions and met with the Pope in the Vatican!
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Kathleen Sebelius is hardly someone I would call a ‘good’ Catholic. She was good friends with a LATE TERM ABORTIONIST…and vetoed common sense laws (while governor of Kansas) that would have required abortion clinics to have the same health and safety standards as outpatient clinics or hospitals (can’t remember which one). She was also admonished by her bishop for her extreme pro abortion views and told not to present herself for the Eucharist!

And Joe Biden? HAHAHA…don’t make me laugh!

Also, I believe that the admin also did not want an organization that is affiliated with the Catholic church to help those who were victims of the sex slave industry (I think it was) because they don’t REFER FOR ABORTION!

When I think Catholic, I think people **that aren’t **buddy buddy with those who killed babies for a living.

When did he work with the Catholic church? I see the HHS mandate requiring Catholic organizations to pay for contraceptives and sterilizations, which goes against Church teaching. Also see this as saying “you’re not religious enough if you serve those other than of your own faith”. This means that organizations like Catholic charitiies or Catholic Social Services (which my diocese has) would not be considered RELIGIOUS ENOUGH because they have provided services for those other than CATHOLICS.
 
tqualey said:
The Divinity of Christ has yet to become a political issue. Abortion is a political issue - and one you think you can maintain and still maintain the religion you claim. You really can not have both. As I have said before, we all have an obligation to have a knowledge of the caAre you saying that you can vote for Obama because he supports abortion and still be a Catholic?

God bless
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Brother you need to reread my posts on my stance on abortion and the reasons should i cast my vote for Obama.

Are you telling me that you can vote for a candidate who does not acknowledge that Jesus Christ, your God, as God and still consider yourself Catholic?
 
I would have a problem casting my vote for a party that promotes religious bigotry, intolerance, favors the rich, lacks care and compassion, merciless. I would have a problem associating myself with the politics of the right wing conservatisim of the owner of the Washington Times , who is supporter, big money donor and ideology shaper and behind thd scene leader of the right wing. He has supported and friends with Nixon, Reagan, Bush. I can side with Limbaugh, Palin, Bachmann. My conscience won`t allow me to partake in with this party. And this party is not willing to cooperate and work with Obama. They have gone to the extreme. Why do they deserve my vote ? Sorry but this party have to comeback to the middle.
 
je333 said:
I can side with Limbaugh, Palin, Bachmann. My conscience won`t allow me to partake in with this party. .
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You can side with Limbaugh, Palin and Bachmann? If so, then you should vote for Romney and join the GOP. Or did you mean something else?

Ishii
 
je333 said:
I would have a problem casting my vote for a party that promotes religious bigotry, intolerance, favors the rich, lacks care and compassion, merciless
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There is no party that fits this description. I do no think it very moral to make a bunch of junk up off the top of your head and apply it to other people. I understand that the Republican party is more favorable to the rich than the Democrat Party, or at least is easily perceived that way. But the moral condemnation and judgment you lavish upon them is very un-Christlike and not in keeping with Catholic teaching about the respect for others.
 
pnewton said:
There is no party that fits this description. I do no think it very moral to make a bunch of junk up off the top of your head and apply it to other people. I understand that the Republican party is more favorable to the rich than the Democrat Party, or at least is easily perceived that way. But the moral condemnation and judgment you lavish upon them is very un-Christlike and not in keeping with Catholic teaching about the respect for others.
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Thats quite an insult and very judgemental of you Michael. That is my personal statement about my impression about that party based on the previous rallies i have attended in the past. I hold firm to those statement and dont just say random things on top of my head. I know what im saying. Do your own research before you disrespect what i am saying. How unchristian can people be to call the democratic party evil, to call Obama abortionist, Hitler, to say that the abortion issue as political instead of religious, not being able to recognize the works that Obama is doing for the poor, the disadvantage as religious and Christian acts. I dont know Michael but its just a disappointment to observe my other brothers on the other political side.
 
je333 said:
How unchristian can people be to call the democratic party evil, to call Obama abortionist, Hitler, to say that the abortion issue as political instead of religious, not being able to recognize the works that
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I agree that there have been many here that have allowed their rhetoric become uncharitable, and I disagree with it then also. No discussion will ever get anywhere when exaggeration and bigotry allows us to depart from charity. You say now that the negative rhetoric was just your “impression” of the Republican Party. I submit that if you can not back up anything of the sins you accused it of with statements from its platform, or similar policy statement, then your impression is no more than an prejudice born of ignorance, as is all prejudice. Rather than condemn based on an impression, why not seek factual truth? Since a lack of care and compassion is important, as you point out, then why not show this compassion with an honest impression based on fact, not slant.

Here is a link for your perusal:

whitehouse12.com/republican-party-platform/

In the interest of fairness, here is the Democratic Platform:

democrats.org/democratic-national-platform

and I will do what I asked of you.
" That’s why, in his first month in office, President Obama overturned the “global gag rule,” a ban on federal funds to foreign family planning organizations that provided information about, counseling on, or offered abortions.
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We support marriage equality and support the movement to secure equal treatment under law for same-sex couples.
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The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the way
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The Church teaches that the “lesser of two evils” strategy is only to be use when there is NO other option (i.e. the other option = don’t vote, or, preferably, vote for a good party even if it will never win the election).

As an example, say there are two parties. Party A supports abortion. Party B supports gay marriage AND abortion. Should you then vote for Party A?, NO!

All the above remains true… however, with the US elections the big question is - “Is the Republican party an evil?” For it to come under the “lesser evil” dilemma it must be an evil in the first place…

So, this is the question that American Catholics must ask themselves - is the Republican party and evil party?. Personally, I’d say that Obama’s party is VERY EVIL but that the Republican party is OKAY (not perfect, but not defined as evil in my book).

🙂
 
I don’t know why everyone says there are only 2 candidates. We don’t have to be slaves to the two-party system if enough of us can rally behind a worthy third party option. My vote will be going for Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party:

Seven Principles of the Constitution Party:

Life: For all human beings, from conception to natural death;
Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual;
Family: One husband and one wife with their children as divinely instituted;
Property: Each individual’s right to own and steward personal property without government burden;
Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;
States’ Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government, nor prohibited by the Constitution to the states, is reserved to the states or to the people;
American Sovereignty: American government committed to the protection of the borders, trade, and common defense of Americans, and not entangled in foreign alliances.

Now before everyone jumps on and says “you’re wasting your vote, he has no chance of winning”, the fact remains that I must vote my conscience, and my conscience tells me that neither Obama nor Romney represent the values of the Catholic Church. The Catholic bloc of voters is quite substantial. If all Catholics would stop falling for the fallacy that you must vote R or D, change would actually be possible in this nation.
 
This election is critical, to our country’s future and to our most dearly held freedoms (I am most thinking of FREEDOM OF RELIGION).

I look at it this way: if something were to happen to the elected president, who would I want taking over…the Democrat or the Republican? Joe Biden or Paul Ryan? I’d rather have Paul Ryan taking over.

I also can’t let a thrid party canddate vote take away a critical vote…who knows where we will be in 4 years…will we even BE America anymore? Will Catholic chariities still exist? Catholic schools? I can’t risk that…I can’t risk that at all.
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
The Church teaches that the “lesser of two evils” strategy is only to be use when there is NO other option (i.e. the other option = don’t vote, or, preferably, vote for a good party even if it will never win the election).

As an example, say there are two parties. Party A supports abortion. Party B supports gay marriage AND abortion. Should you then vote for Party A?, NO!

All the above remains true… however, with the US elections the big question is - “Is the Republican party an evil?” For it to come under the “lesser evil” dilemma it must be an evil in the first place…

So, this is the question that American Catholics must ask themselves - is the Republican party and evil party?. Personally, I’d say that Obama’s party is VERY EVIL but that the Republican party is OKAY (not perfect, but not defined as evil in my book).

🙂
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Nice argument. Realistic available choices are (1) Democrat or (2) Republican. Regardless of whether you categorize a party “evil” or “okay”, you only have two choices for available for consideration, since self-declared Independents generally vote for one of the mainstream parties. I consider the GOP far superior with respect to my Catholic faith, which ultimately governs my vote in American politics. The Democrats support abortion, gay marriage, the social welfare state, and an overall secular humanist agenda. I support life, heterosexual marriage, capitalism, and limited federal government. Based on those beliefs, I have no alternative but to support the Grand Old Party.
 
iHi, Je333,

There is more to being President then being either for or against abortion. No doubt about it.

So, what do you want to focus on - the economy, foreign policy, a Justice Department that appears to be hiding material on getting guns into Mexico (‘Fast and Furious’), shutting down the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico for 6 months after the BP spill had ended, a health care system that now promises 1,800 new IRS agents and 10,000,000 new people lining up for care - and not one way to get more docs into the system, a genuine ignorance on how to move this economy forward while still wondering out loud about how he is going to tax others - leaving business leaders with nothing but uncertainty. There really is more then abortion at stake - and if you want to focus on any of these issues - be my guest.

Abortion, however may really be this compression of many realities into a small space - in a nutshell if you wish.

The limitation on not having one’s baby butchered while still inside of the mother - may have other aspects. Disrespecting life in one area, honestly opens up avenues for disrespecting it in others. All of us a getting older - and increased age brings on increased infirmaties - so how will you feel when others decide that you are no long the productive person you once were? Like the helpless unborn - those of us who come into the corsshairs of ‘mercy killing’ will not be spared, either.

Obama has been destructive to the overall health of this country. Promising his version of ‘bread and circus’ (ObamaCare, taxing the wealthy, continuing to increase the $16 trillion debt for social programs he has tinkered with [taking funds from Medicare to fund ObamCare] - and the list goes on. Those who vote for Obama are making a conscious decision that his policies are what they want. ‘Catholics’ who vote for Obama because of his pro-death policies stopped being Catholics when they began to believe the lie that death is good and life is evil - the tune sung by the abortionists.

We will all answer for this November vote.

God bless
je333 said:
This really isn’t just about abortion. As one CAF member has said “This in a nutshell really is about some people see more limitations on their choices and freedoms while other people gain choices and freedoms which they had no access to before.”
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Hi, Iarsont7,

Good for you! 👍 You have found a candidate who supports life and you believe in!

Let me encourage everyone to find someone who meets this criteria.

God bless
larsont7 said:
I don’t know why everyone says there are only 2 candidates. We don’t have to be slaves to the two-party system if enough of us can rally behind a worthy third party option. My vote will be going for Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party:

Seven Principles of the Constitution Party:

Life: For all human beings, from conception to natural death;
Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual;
Family: One husband and one wife with their children as divinely instituted;
Property: Each individual’s right to own and steward personal property without government burden;
Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;
States’ Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government, nor prohibited by the Constitution to the states, is reserved to the states or to the people;
American Sovereignty: American government committed to the protection of the borders, trade, and common defense of Americans, and not entangled in foreign alliances.

Now before everyone jumps on and says “you’re wasting your vote, he has no chance of winning”, the fact remains that I must vote my conscience, and my conscience tells me that neither Obama nor Romney represent the values of the Catholic Church. The Catholic bloc of voters is quite substantial. If all Catholics would stop falling for the fallacy that you must vote R or D, change would actually be possible in this nation.
Click to expand...
 
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