Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[tqualey]

Hi, ClemtheCatholic,

Do you have a reference that defines ‘lesser of two evils’ as you have explained it?

God bless

The Church teaches that the “lesser of two evils” strategy is only to be use when there is NO other option (i.e. the other option = don’t vote, or, preferably, vote for a good party even if it will never win the election).

As an example, say there are two parties. Party A supports abortion. Party B supports gay marriage AND abortion. Should you then vote for Party A?, NO!

All the above remains true… however, with the US elections the big question is - “Is the Republican party an evil?” For it to come under the “lesser evil” dilemma it must be an evil in the first place…

So, this is the question that American Catholics must ask themselves - is the Republican party and evil party?. Personally, I’d say that Obama’s party is VERY EVIL but that the Republican party is OKAY (not perfect, but not defined as evil in my book).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Je333,

Pnewton gave you not only an excellent response, but the references to back it up.

But, since you brought up what your conscience ‘…won’t allow me to partake in…’ how about some references that identify just what your conscience does allow. And… since you have listed yourself as a Catholic - it would be highly instructive to me if you provided some Catholic sources on which I assume you have based your decision on.

Thank you and God bless

I would have a problem casting my vote for a party that promotes religious bigotry, intolerance, favors the rich, lacks care and compassion, merciless. I would have a problem associating myself with the politics of the right wing conservatisim of the owner of the Washington Times , who is supporter, big money donor and ideology shaper and behind thd scene leader of the right wing. He has supported and friends with Nixon, Reagan, Bush. I can side with Limbaugh, Palin, Bachmann. My conscience won`t allow me to partake in with this party. And this party is not willing to cooperate and work with Obama. They have gone to the extreme. Why do they deserve my vote ? Sorry but this party have to comeback to the middle.

 

[Elizabeth502]

That`s quite an insult and very judgemental of you Michael.

And your statement below, to which he responded, was not judgmental?

I would have a problem casting my vote for a party that promotes religious bigotry, intolerance, favors the rich, lacks care and compassion, merciless.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Hi, ClemtheCatholic,

Do you have a reference that defines ‘lesser of two evils’ as you have explained it?

God bless

Hi,

I have gotten this info. from a number of people who have either Master’s or Doctor’s in theology. To be honest, I do not know the specific references to documents such as the Catechism.

If it helps I can post links to the Catechism area that states that you may not do evil in order to bring about something good. But I don’t think this what you’re looking for…?

My apologies for not knowing specific details.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[pnewton]

If it helps I can post links to the Catechism area that states that you may not do evil in order to bring about something good. But I don’t think this what you’re looking for…?

I think everyone agrees on this, but then voting is not an intrinsically evil act. Choosing the lesser of two evils is not the same as doing evil to bring about good.

 

[jediliz]

please remember this when voting: Satan is the MASTER of DECEPTION.

I am not 100% comfortable with Romney (my top choices, BEFORE they dropped out, were Herman Cain and Rick Santorum)…but Paul Ryan, his VP Candidate choice, has a pretty good knowledge of Economics. That makes me less nervous. And he’s definitely a better balance on the faith and morals that should concern MOST of us.

There is no **perfect **candidate and this election is critical to the future…We have such a huge debt…will my nieces’ and nephews’ GRANDCHILDREN have to pay the price in 50 or 60 years? Will America still be here in 50 years? At least, the America WE KNOW and LOVE? Who knows…

I am going to pray my Election Rosary 54 Day novena now.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

I would have a problem casting my vote for a party that promotes religious bigotry, intolerance, favors the rich, lacks care and compassion, merciless. I would have a problem associating myself with the politics of the right wing conservatisim of the owner of the Washington Times , who is supporter, big money donor and ideology shaper and behind thd scene leader of the right wing. He has supported and friends with Nixon, Reagan, Bush. I can side with Limbaugh, Palin, Bachmann. My conscience won`t allow me to partake in with this party. And this party is not willing to cooperate and work with Obama. They have gone to the extreme. Why do they deserve my vote ? Sorry but this party have to comeback to the middle.

My vote is cast in Virginia, so it counts. And it will be cast for the GOP. I suppose you find Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dohrn, Reverend Wright, and George Soros acceptable, right? The Democrats are the most intolerable party in existence. They support abortionists, gay marriage, socialism and anti-Catholic policies (HHS mandate). Obama and Harry Reid won’t work with the Republicans, so don’t make it sound so one-sided. I’m a Rockefeller Republican (socially moderate and fiscally conservative) and I’m still at home in the GOP. Given the state of the Democratic Party, there is no viable alternative.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ClemtheCatholic,

The reason I asked for a reference is that you made a significant statement about making choices based on your statement of what is Catholic faith. My concern is that your explanation is totally different my understanding on how Catholics are to ethically make choices.

I think this is a link that can be helpful in moving our understandings forward: cacatholic.org/index.php/take-action/faithful-citizenship/496-a-well-formed-conscience

God bless

Hi,

I have gotten this info. from a number of people who have either Master’s or Doctor’s in theology. To be honest, I do not know the specific references to documents such as the Catechism.

If it helps I can post links to the Catechism area that states that you may not do evil in order to bring about something good. But I don’t think this what you’re looking for…?

My apologies for not knowing specific details.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Hi, ClemtheCatholic,

The reason I asked for a reference is that you made a significant statement about making choices based on your statement of what is Catholic faith. My concern is that your explanation is totally different my understanding on how Catholics are to ethically make choices.

I think this is a link that can be helpful in moving our understandings forward: cacatholic.org/index.php/take-action/faithful-citizenship/496-a-well-formed-conscience

God bless

Hi, I understand your concerns. However, I doubt that a Professor in theology would make things up when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You may say that I must have interpreted the info wrongly but I clarified the point just recently.

The example I was given is this:

*Imagine you’re in Germany at the time just before Word War II. There are 2 parties running.

Party A says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 10 million Jews.

Party B says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 5 million Jews.*

Would you vote for Party B on the grounds that it is better than Party A? I would not.

Call this an exaggeration, but abortion across the world is a mass extermination on a scale amounting to far bigger than World War II’s deaths. And, unfortunately, even though the Republican party has been in power for long periods (Bush, for example) they have done nowhere near enough to say they’re “free of certain evils”.

Quite simply, it is morally wrong for somebody to give their legitimate consent/vote to something that is evil (i.e. involved in the mass murder of babies).

I looked at the link you posted (great site, by the way!) and I’ve read most of it before. I agree, it is down to the individual.

This is quoted from the website you linked: Our Church teaches that a person cannot vote with the intention of supporting or advancing an intrinsically evil act. In short, one cannot vote for a candidate or a policy in order to promote abortion or genocide. A voter, however, must take into account the totality of Catholic teaching, a candidate’s integrity and his or her ability to influence a given issue. [FCFC 37]

I think this may have confused me slightly but I think what I have been saying has mostly been in accordance - note they say that “Our Church teaches”.

I think I may have been wrong in making my arguments as definitive as I did. So, it is down to the individual - but there are a lot of guidelines which to myself personally (put together with my conscience) tell me that I should not vote for abortion, and thus not for either of the 2 main parties.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[jwinch2]

americanthinker.com/2012/09/how_the_financial_collapse_would_happen_in_an_obama_second_term.html

The upcoming election, despite the best efforts of the Obama campaign, the mainstream media, and various polling firms, is going to revolve around two questions: are you better off than you were four ago, and what is the future going to be if Barack Obama is re-elected? The Obama team is attempting to finesse the first question by obfuscating the second. They claim that their policies have begun to work, and, given a second term, life would redeem the promises Obama made in 2008.
A discussion centered on what the future will bring can be confusing and arcane. The Democrats rely on an emotional argument tied into the cult of personality surrounding Barack Obama, essentially stating that because their motives are pure and they have historically been for the “little” guy, they should be trusted when they say that their plans will be best in the long run. The Republicans and conservatives, on the other hand, too often rely on cold, hard facts and figures, which oftentimes succeed only in making them appear impersonal and pedantic, spouting numbers which cause the eye of the average voter to glaze over with confusion.

So rather than get bogged down in statistics from the Republicans or emotional and deceptive rhetoric from Barack Obama, let’s look at a real-life and current example of where this nation is headed: Spain.

If we wish to see where we are going we have only to look at those who have followed the same path ahead of us.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ClemtheCatholic,

With all due respect - I really do not think you understand the concerns I identified. While you may doubt that a Professor in theology would makie thinks up - please note that virtually all of the great heresies were started by bishops and priests - or, as in the case of Henry VIII aided by them to promote heresy. A person’s rank or position is of little consequence. What is of consequence is that they are following the infallible guide to Christ - and that would be His Catholic Church.

May I encourage you to finish reading the article - and then search for your own that will help clarify the position you have claimed to be within Church teaching. What is of concern is that you have essentially ignored my request that you provide a reference - don’t you think it is worth validating what your Professor of theology has stated, or, at least what you understood him to say?

Forgive me for criticizing what must be a favorite example of choosing between two evils. But what you are really engaging in is simply situational ethics - your presentation lacks a solid grounding in principles and, as a result, can fly off course with every issue - real or imagined. Why not look at reality? historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/runs.htm The reality of Hilter’s rise to power is that he lied to everyone, Germany had its economic back to the wall with the punitive treaty that ended WW I, and no one said anything about murdering Jews. While there were those who really did vote against Hitler because they really saw through his lies - they were the minority. Ultimately, after Hitler won this free election - there wasn’t another one. Germany had been taken over by a dictator.

So, honestly, if you want an issue - and that would be just how reliable is a particular politician - then please, look at Obama. He has managed much because he, too, has lied to everyone. And if you want to look for yourself, look at the various lies he spun out while receiving his honorary doctorate at Notre Dame. But, he has been honest and forthcoming in other areas - like his unflinching dedication to Planned Parenthood - to the point of shutting down the government if PP was in any way deprived of tax dollars! And, here are some links: thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/144285-obama-waves-veto-threat-at-continuing-resolution and thehill.com/homenews/senate/154939-senate-women-threaten-shutdwown-over-planned-parenthood-rider

If your basic position is to see just where a candidate stands on various issues, if he is honest and straighforwarded in his dealings with the American People and if the path he (and his Party) is the way you want to go - then there are reasons to vote for this persons. In my opinion, our current President is both a liar and a deceiver, and he along with the Democratic Party have really become the party of abortion. Please understand what you have been announcing: that Obama can be voted on by Catholics in good faith - and this is simply not true for anyone who has simply taken the time to look at the bottomless pit of death he is offering to everyone. Note: every US Catholic Bishop has condemned Obama’s HHS Mandate - surely that will tell you something about just what IS the Catholic position on voting to re-elect this promoter of butchery.

We are all encouraged to chose life. This is the proper position for all of us to support with our vote.

God bless

Hitler’s rise to power (from a wounded WW I soldier, failed artist, and imprisoned political riot leader - to

Hi, I understand your concerns. However, I doubt that a Professor in theology would make things up when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You may say that I must have interpreted the info wrongly but I clarified the point just recently.

The example I was given is this:

*Imagine you’re in Germany at the time just before Word War II. There are 2 parties running.

Party A says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 10 million Jews.

Party B says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 5* million Jews.

Would you vote for Party B on the grounds that it is better than Party A? I would not.

Call this an exaggeration, but abortion across the world is a mass extermination on a scale amounting to far bigger than World War II’s deaths. Quite simply, it is morally wrong for somebody to give their legitimate consent/vote to something that is evil (i.e. involved in the mass murder of babies).

I looked at the link you posted (great site, by the way!) and I’ve read most of it before. I agree, it is down to the individual.

This is quoted from the website you linked: Our Church teaches that a person cannot vote with the intention of supporting or advancing an intrinsically evil act. In short, one cannot vote for a candidate or a policy in order to promote abortion or genocide. A voter, however, must take into account the totality of Catholic teaching, a candidate’s integrity and his or her ability to influence a given issue. [FCFC 37]

I think this may have confused me slightly but I think what I have been saying has mostly been in accordance - note they say that “Our Church teaches”.

I think I may have been wrong in making my arguments as definitive as I did. So, it is down to the individual - but there are a lot of guidelines which to myself personally (put together with my conscience) tell me that I should not vote for abortion, and thus not for either of the 2 main parties.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[ishii]

Hi, I understand your concerns. However, I doubt that a Professor in theology would make things up when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You may say that I must have interpreted the info wrongly but I clarified the point just recently.

The example I was given is this:

*Imagine you’re in Germany at the time just before Word War II. There are 2 parties running.

Party A says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 10 million Jews.

Party B says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 5* million Jews.

Would you vote for Party B on the grounds that it is better than Party A? I would not.

***Call this an exaggeration, but abortion across the world is a mass extermination on a scale amounting to far bigger than World War II’s deaths. And, unfortunately, even though the Republican party has been in power for long periods (Bush, for example) they have done nowhere near enough to say they’re “free of certain evils”. ***

Quite simply, it is morally wrong for somebody to give their legitimate consent/vote to something that is evil (i.e. involved in the mass murder of babies).

I looked at the link you posted (great site, by the way!) and I’ve read most of it before. I agree, it is down to the individual.

This is quoted from the website you linked: Our Church teaches that a person cannot vote with the intention of supporting or advancing an intrinsically evil act. In short, one cannot vote for a candidate or a policy in order to promote abortion or genocide. A voter, however, must take into account the totality of Catholic teaching, a candidate’s integrity and his or her ability to influence a given issue. [FCFC 37]

I think this may have confused me slightly but I think what I have been saying has mostly been in accordance - note they say that “Our Church teaches”.

I think I may have been wrong in making my arguments as definitive as I did. So, it is down to the individual - but there are a lot of guidelines which to myself personally (put together with my conscience) tell me that I should not vote for abortion, and thus not for either of the 2 main parties.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

ClemtheCatholic - your analogy fails. I agree that in order for you to make a case that we can’t vote for either the GOP or the Democrat party, you need to show that the GOP is almost equally as pro-abortion as the Democrat party. You haven’t done that. In the part of your post which I bold/italicized, you said of the GOP, “they haven’t done enough.” So are you changing the standard? In your analogy you say A will kill 10 million Jews and B will kill 5 million. Then you say the GOP *hasn’t done enough *to stop abortion, and that is somehow equivalent to “killing 5 million Jews” ? You go from actively supporting the killing (5 million) to " not doing enough to stop it." So you’re not making sense. The Democrat party is in the pocket of the abortion lobby and fights tooth and nail against any efforts by the GOP - at all levels of govt.- to curtail abortion. And you’re suggesting that the GOP, whose pro-life efforts the Democrat party thwarts, is somehow equally to blame for abortion being legal in this country? You don’t understand how our system works - a party that is pro-life can’t just flip a switch or wave a magic wand and outlaw abortion. It is morally permissible for pro-life voters to vote for the GOP, in fact, I think a strong case can be made that it is morally ***necessary ***for pro-life voters to vote for the GOP. Sitting on your hands and staying home and letting Obama win is not an effective pro-life strategy.

Ishii

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ishii,

Well said!

You know, I have given quite a lot of thought trying to understand the intellectual basis that someone - claiming to be Catholic - can justify NOT voting. We have a positive duty to do good - and because we can not do all good or perfect good - we can only do the good that is presented to us. This is really more involved then avoiding evil. And it is this positive duty that trumps all of the other objections to just sitting on one’s hands come the November election.

Not voting for ‘the good’ when given the opportunity to do so is quite honestly, providing aid and comfort to ‘the evil’.

While I am in agreement with you about the GOP being the party that supports life, actually has God in its platform (the Democrates do too … but, only after having removed God and then suffered significant criticism for this action so they put God back in!) and is not waging a war on women as the Dems are with their promotion of having one’s unborn chlld butchered within one’s womb)… people can, in good conscience, vote against Obama but not vote for Romney. This may appear to be throwing one’s vote away - but, I would see this as where their personal conscience is the driving force.

Now, here is a question … and, I do not even have a clue as to the answer. Since there is so much to criticize Obama on concerning the economy - why hasn’t someone re-used the phrase, “It’s the economy, stupid”? After all, it did get the last guy who said this elected!

God bless

ClemtheCatholic - your analogy fails. I agree that in order for you to make a case that we can’t vote for either the GOP or the Democrat party, you need to show that the GOP is almost equally as pro-abortion as the Democrat party. You haven’t done that. In the part of your post which I bold/italicized, you said of the GOP, “they haven’t done enough.” So are you changing the standard? In your analogy you say A will kill 10 million Jews and B will kill 5 million. Then you say the GOP *hasn’t done enough *to stop abortion, and that is somehow equivalent to “killing 5 million Jews” ? You go from actively supporting the killing (5 million) to " not doing enough to stop it." So you’re not making sense. The Democrat party is in the pocket of the abortion lobby and fights tooth and nail against any efforts by the GOP - at all levels of govt.- to curtail abortion. And you’re suggesting that the GOP, whose pro-life efforts the Democrat party thwarts, is somehow equally to blame for abortion being legal in this country? You don’t understand how our system works - a party that is pro-life can’t just flip a switch or wave a magic wand and outlaw abortion. It is morally permissible for pro-life voters to vote for the GOP, in fact, I think a strong case can be made that it is morally ***necessary ***for pro-life voters to vote for the GOP. Sitting on your hands and staying home and letting Obama win is not an effective pro-life strategy.

Ishii

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ClemtheCatholic,

I received this item today and thought it would be good to share it with the thread.

God bless

"The following is the full text of the speech vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan delivered today to the Values Voter Summit. During the speech, Ryan takes on the Obama HHS mandate and criticizes President Barack Obama on abortion.

Paul Ryan today delivered remarks to the Values Voter Summit in Washington, D.C. The following remarks were prepared for delivery: lifenews.com/2012/09/14/full-text-of-paul-ryans-pro-life-values-voter-summit-speech/
"

Hi, I understand your concerns. However, I doubt that a Professor in theology would make things up when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You may say that I must have interpreted the info wrongly but I clarified the point just recently.

The example I was given is this:

*Imagine you’re in Germany at the time just before Word War II. There are 2 parties running.

Party A says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 10 million Jews.

Party B says that it will start a big war that will cause lots of deaths, AND it will exterminate 5* million Jews.

Would you vote for Party B on the grounds that it is better than Party A? I would not.

Call this an exaggeration, but abortion across the world is a mass extermination on a scale amounting to far bigger than World War II’s deaths. And, unfortunately, even though the Republican party has been in power for long periods (Bush, for example) they have done nowhere near enough to say they’re “free of certain evils”.

Quite simply, it is morally wrong for somebody to give their legitimate consent/vote to something that is evil (i.e. involved in the mass murder of babies).

I looked at the link you posted (great site, by the way!) and I’ve read most of it before. I agree, it is down to the individual.

This is quoted from the website you linked: Our Church teaches that a person cannot vote with the intention of supporting or advancing an intrinsically evil act. In short, one cannot vote for a candidate or a policy in order to promote abortion or genocide. A voter, however, must take into account the totality of Catholic teaching, a candidate’s integrity and his or her ability to influence a given issue. [FCFC 37]

I think this may have confused me slightly but I think what I have been saying has mostly been in accordance - note they say that “Our Church teaches”.

I think I may have been wrong in making my arguments as definitive as I did. So, it is down to the individual - but there are a lot of guidelines which to myself personally (put together with my conscience) tell me that I should not vote for abortion, and thus not for either of the 2 main parties.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[pnewton]

Hi, I understand your concerns. However, I doubt that a Professor in theology would make things up when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You may say that I must have interpreted the info wrongly but I clarified the point just recently.

I do not think you have interpreted anything wrong, but I do think you are misapplying the principle. It is only to be used when someone commits an evil act to bring about a good. If you apply it to voting, then you are assuming that voting is an evil act, the point you wish to prove, to prove the point. It is a circular logic. We can not kill one person to save fifty, but voting is only remote, not proximate, cooperation with, well, anything. We vot vote. The winner may or may not pass a law permitting evil. Then a person may or may not commit an evil that they may or may not have done anyway. Our vote is not closely associated with an evil act.

Now, add to this the teaching we have received from our bishops on this. The have said the voting from someone who is in favor of abortion is very limited. There are some exceptions though. One of which is the person who favors abortion favors it far less than the other likely candidate who is likely to win. As this is permitted, then it is not evil and the principle you quote does not apply.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I have given quite a lot of thought trying to understand the intellectual basis that someone - claiming to be Catholic - can justify NOT voting. We have a positive duty to do good - and because we can not do all good or perfect good - we can only do the good that is presented to us. This is really more involved then avoiding evil. And it is this positive duty that trumps all of the other objections to just sitting on one’s hands come the November election.

I wonder what you mean by “the good that is presented to us”? Do you mean each and every opportunity to do good that is possible for us personally? Or do you mean only those good chances that we see in front of our noses? Or something else? The reason I ask is because I want to see how you are going to make voting in November an absolute duty while leaving all other chances to do good as options that we can select from. For example, just about everyone can write a letter to their congressman voicing their concern for the unborn. This is an opportunity for good that is presented to us. So are you saying we have a positive duty to write those letters? If you say that writing letters does no good then I would say voting against Obama in Vermont does no good either. Either way you are going to have a hard time drawing a clear distinction between a positive duty to do good by voting and the optional good works that one could do.

 

[jwinch2]

catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=36059

The CatholicVote.org Research team has pored through the public statements and positions of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney on issues which matter to Catholics…

We have life, marriage and religious liberty at the top of the list, because these issues are foundational…

We have also included other areas of concern to Catholic voters, including fiscal responsibility, education and health care…

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Hi,

So I have a lot of people disagreeing with me here… I first of all want to make it clear that I am eager not to dig myself a hole - where I get so caught up in this that I get to the point where I am to embarrassed to change my stance. This is what often happens in debating, but I always try to remain unbiased, open, and calm…

I also want to make this absolutely clear: I THINK OBAMA, ALONG WITH HIS PARTY, IS EVIL.

So, basically, I’ve read over all the comments that refer to my previous post and as far as I can make out the biggest point is on whether the Republican party is a “good” party. Because, if they are - like the Democrats - evil, then I believe there is reason to NOT vote for either of the two main parties. I will demonstrate my reasons in just a moment… Looking back, I have not done the best job in what I have written (unfortunately I am not the most eloquent of people)… and I have made arguments on a number of points without being able to, on the spot, produce any support for the arguments (presumably mostly through quotes from the Catechism).

But as I said, I think the fundamental issue here is on the moral status of the Republican party. If you read No. 2242 (pg. 484) of the CCC(look on the Vatican website if you do not posses a copy of the Catechism) you will see that it begins by saying: The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of the person or to the teachings of the Gospel. This is backed up by a quote from No. 377 of the Youth Catechism which says: If a state should establish laws and procedures are racist, sexist, or destructive of human life, a Christian is obliged in conscience to refuse to obey, to refrain from participation, and to offer resistance.

-Now, if you take a look at the link: 2012.republican-candidates.org/Romney/Abortion.php you should notice that he (Governor Romney) says: I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a US Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years, that we should sustain and support it, and I sustain and support that law, and the right of a woman to make that choice. This IS taken out of context - so please follow the link given… But what Romney is saying is that whilst he is pro-life, he will not bring this into politics. I am sure that if the Republican party wins this election, they will be MUCH BETTER MORALLY THAN OBAMA AND HIS PARTY. However, the Republican party will still permit mass-murder on a pretty big scale - and in those quotations from the Catechism it seems to me to say that we are then obliged to “offer resistance” not vote and thus endorse their actions.

At the end of No. 383 YouCat it says: Protecting innocent life is one of the noblest tasks of the State. If a State evades this responsibility, it undermines the foundations of a rule of law.

People argue that the Republicans do/will do all they possibly can to stop things like abortion. But Romney clearly goes against that, and the Republicans - even when they have 8 consecutive years in office - just don’t seem to do enough to bring abortion to an end (if they do anything at all).

2270 CCC: Human life must be respected and protected ** absolutely* from the moment of conception.*

2273 CCC: The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: “The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and political authority…”

So, to summarize: The Republican party, whilst better than the Democrats, seems to still commit many serious and “abominable crimes” (Vatican II: Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.) which go fundamentally against the Catechism and the teachings of the Church. Then, I have made quotes from the Catechism (CCC No. 2242 | YouCat No. 377) which say that we should NOT be supporting these sort of people but, in fact, we should be offering resistance.

Sorry for the length of my post, I had to point out certain bits of the Catechism in depth…

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[rlg94086]

Hi,

So I have a lot of people disagreeing with me here… I first of all want to make it clear that I am eager not to dig myself a hole - where I get so caught up in this that I get to the point where I am to embarrassed to change my stance. This is what often happens in debating, but I always try to remain unbiased, open, and calm…

I also want to make this absolutely clear: I THINK OBAMA, ALONG WITH HIS PARTY, IS EVIL.

So, basically, I’ve read over all the comments that refer to my previous post and as far as I can make out the biggest point is on whether the Republican party is a “good” party. Because, if they are - like the Democrats - evil, then I believe there is reason to NOT vote for either of the two main parties. I will demonstrate my reasons in just a moment… Looking back, I have not done the best job in what I have written (unfortunately I am not the most eloquent of people)… and I have made arguments on a number of points without being able to, on the spot, produce any support for the arguments (presumably mostly through quotes from the Catechism).

But as I said, I think the fundamental issue here is on the moral status of the Republican party. If you read No. 2242 (pg. 484) of the CCC(look on the Vatican website if you do not posses a copy of the Catechism) you will see that it begins by saying: The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of the person or to the teachings of the Gospel. This is backed up by a quote from No. 377 of the Youth Catechism which says: If a state should establish laws and procedures are racist, sexist, or destructive of human life, a Christian is obliged in conscience to refuse to obey, to refrain from participation, and to offer resistance.

-Now, if you take a look at the link: 2012.republican-candidates.org/Romney/Abortion.php you should notice that he (Governor Romney) says: I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a US Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years, that we should sustain and support it, and I sustain and support that law, and the right of a woman to make that choice. This IS taken out of context - so please follow the link given… But what Romney is saying is that whilst he is pro-life, he will not bring this into politics. I am sure that if the Republican party wins this election, they will be MUCH BETTER MORALLY THAN OBAMA AND HIS PARTY. However, the Republican party will still permit mass-murder on a pretty big scale - and in those quotations from the Catechism it seems to me to say that we are then obliged to “offer resistance” not vote and thus endorse their actions.

At the end of No. 383 YouCat it says: Protecting innocent life is one of the noblest tasks of the State. If a State evades this responsibility, it undermines the foundations of a rule of law.

People argue that the Republicans do/will do all they possibly can to stop things like abortion. But Romney clearly goes against that, and the Republicans - even when they have 8 consecutive years in office - just don’t seem to do enough to bring abortion to an end (if they do anything at all).

2270 CCC: Human life must be respected and protected ** absolutely** from the moment of conception.

2273 CCC: The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: “The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and political authority…”

So, to summarize: The Republican party, whilst better than the Democrats, seems to still commit many serious and “abominable crimes” (Vatican II: Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.) which go fundamentally against the Catechism and the teachings of the Church. Then, I have made quotes from the Catechism (CCC No. 2242 | YouCat No. 377) which say that we should NOT be supporting these sort of people but, in fact, we should be offering resistance.

Sorry for the length of my post, I had to point out certain bits of the Catechism in depth…

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

The Romney quote you provided is from 1994. His position on abortion has changed, and your summary is that the Republican Party is "still commit[ing] many serious and “abominable crimes,” despite the fact that the party and its candidate are running on the restriction of abortion and overturning of Roe v Wade. I’m voting for good. I have no interest in “verbal gymnastic” arguments to make the two choices appear equivalent.

 

[jwinch2]

Hi,

So I have a lot of people disagreeing with me here… I first of all want to make it clear that I am eager not to dig myself a hole - where I get so caught up in this that I get to the point where I am to embarrassed to change my stance. This is what often happens in debating, but I always try to remain unbiased, open, and calm…

I also want to make this absolutely clear: I THINK OBAMA, ALONG WITH HIS PARTY, IS EVIL.

So, basically, I’ve read over all the comments that refer to my previous post and as far as I can make out the biggest point is on whether the Republican party is a “good” party. Because, if they are - like the Democrats - evil, then I believe there is reason to NOT vote for either of the two main parties. I will demonstrate my reasons in just a moment… Looking back, I have not done the best job in what I have written (unfortunately I am not the most eloquent of people)… and I have made arguments on a number of points without being able to, on the spot, produce any support for the arguments (presumably mostly through quotes from the Catechism).

But as I said, I think the fundamental issue here is on the moral status of the Republican party. If you read No. 2242 (pg. 484) of the CCC(look on the Vatican website if you do not posses a copy of the Catechism) you will see that it begins by saying: The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of the person or to the teachings of the Gospel. This is backed up by a quote from No. 377 of the Youth Catechism which says: If a state should establish laws and procedures are racist, sexist, or destructive of human life, a Christian is obliged in conscience to refuse to obey, to refrain from participation, and to offer resistance.

-Now, if you take a look at the link: 2012.republican-candidates.org/Romney/Abortion.php you should notice that he (Governor Romney) says: I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a US Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years, that we should sustain and support it, and I sustain and support that law, and the right of a woman to make that choice. This IS taken out of context - so please follow the link given… But what Romney is saying is that whilst he is pro-life, he will not bring this into politics. I am sure that if the Republican party wins this election, they will be MUCH BETTER MORALLY THAN OBAMA AND HIS PARTY. However, the Republican party will still permit mass-murder on a pretty big scale - and in those quotations from the Catechism it seems to me to say that we are then obliged to “offer resistance” not vote and thus endorse their actions.

At the end of No. 383 YouCat it says: Protecting innocent life is one of the noblest tasks of the State. If a State evades this responsibility, it undermines the foundations of a rule of law.

People argue that the Republicans do/will do all they possibly can to stop things like abortion. But Romney clearly goes against that, and the Republicans - even when they have 8 consecutive years in office - just don’t seem to do enough to bring abortion to an end (if they do anything at all).

2270 CCC: Human life must be respected and protected ** absolutely** from the moment of conception.

2273 CCC: The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: “The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and political authority…”

So, to summarize: The Republican party, whilst better than the Democrats, seems to still commit many serious and “abominable crimes” (Vatican II: Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.) which go fundamentally against the Catechism and the teachings of the Church. Then, I have made quotes from the Catechism (CCC No. 2242 | YouCat No. 377) which say that we should NOT be supporting these sort of people but, in fact, we should be offering resistance.

Sorry for the length of my post, I had to point out certain bits of the Catechism in depth…

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=36286

Romney has altered his position on abortion. Your quotations are more than a decade old.