Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[tqualey]

Hi, LeafByNiggle,

That was some pretty artful juggling of the sentences I wrote.

Let me be very specific:

There is no limit on our obligation to do good. Now, if you know of one, just let me know, too.
Obliviously we can not all the good in the world - we have physical limitations - but, once we decide that we are not going to do good - just is this an example of following Christ. Just look how the Saints looked for opportunities to do good.

This election is serious. For those who have not actually looked at the record - President Obama has quite a track record of lying to Catholics about what he plans to do. Let’s be clear: his speech at Notre Dame University where he received an honorary doctrate said he would repects conscience, repect those who do not agree with abortion and not attack their religious beliefs. Those were his words. Just look at his deeds.

President Obama has demonstrated that he is simply an opportunistic politician - saying whatever it takes to get a vote (look at ex-Rep Bart Stupak as a classic example of someone who believed the lies Obama told) and then simply do what he intended all along.

In my opinion, what we are witnessing is an individual who simply is amoral. Voting in November to remove Obama from office is the only way we can act to brng about good this November. There are other candidates who are not pro-abortion and who do not have an established track record of lying every chance they get.

When it comes to doing specific acts of good - you pick what you have determined is appropriate based on a rightly informed conscience. That is all anyone can do. So, if you want to write your elected representative - please, write a good letter that any Catholic Bishop could pick up and say, “I wish that person were in my diocese!” Please, do not put words in my mouth - I never said writing letters does not good. I encourage everyone to write their elected officials and tell them what you think.

Your stated disdain for voting against Obama (in Vermont - or any other state) is noteworthy.

I really do not have a hard time at all: we all have a positive duty to do good. On Nov 6, we have the opportunity to actually bring our Cathoic belief to the ballot box and vote against the evil that Obama has supported and tried to force down the throats of every practicing Catholic in the US. Now, if you have difficulty with this as a concept, I would appreciate you explaining the difficulty. I see not problem with the mental imagry of Christ walkiing into the voting booth and watching you as you cast your vote. Now, when you tell me of your difficulties, can you incorporate this type of imagry – it would make it easier for me to understand.

Thank you and God bless

I wonder what you mean by “the good that is presented to us”? Do you mean each and every opportunity to do good that is possible for us personally? Or do you mean only those good chances that we see in front of our noses? Or something else? The reason I ask is because I want to see how you are going to make voting in November an absolute duty while leaving all other chances to do good as options that we can select from. For example, just about everyone can write a letter to their congressman voicing their concern for the unborn. This is an opportunity for good that is presented to us. So are you saying we have a positive duty to write those letters? If you say that writing letters does no good then I would say voting against Obama in Vermont does no good either. Either way you are going to have a hard time drawing a clear distinction between a positive duty to do good by voting and the optional good works that one could do.

 

[je333]

priestsforlife.orgPresident Obama has not attended the National Day of Prayer even though it had been a tradition for Presidents to attend. However, he has had the meal for the start of Ramadam at the White House at least 2 years. Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. President Obama had attended a church based on Liberation Theology and
some of his Pastor’s sermons were very anti-American, to say the least. Christian love
demonstrated? Not so much.

Let’s not perpetuate an atmosphere of conflict between these 2 religion. Let’s just focus on Christianity. Within Christian beliefs, I condemn any Christian denomination Churches that teach and preach blasphemous doctrines about the divinity of Jesus Christ, among them are, The Jehovah’s Witness, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, The Westboro Baptist Church, The Unification Church , etc., and any Christian Church hating other different religion outside of Christianity.

 

[je333]

Je333

We have a medicare and social security crisis…and we are missing at least 25 MILLION workers (of ~55 Million aborted since 1973) that could be paying into the system…but aren’t here due to being ABORTED.

You make it sounds like that is the purpose of life. Brother, I am a PRO LIFE and I also wish they were here to partake in the visible creation of God, to cultivate the talents that God had bestowed upon them for the Glory of God and for the completion of the purpose of God’s creation.

His administration has attacked the Catholic church, starting with his HHS secretary pushing this Mandate that basically says Catholic run charities aren’t Religious enough because they serve people of ALL FAITHS.

I will touch on this topic on my other posts a little later.

 

[je333]

As for your claims that Obama supports religious freedom, you are sadly mistaken. Unless you discount the attacks he has made against the Catholic Church, I have no idea how you could begin to make that statement.

I will touch on this issue a little later…

 

[je333]

I can’t decide if you are trolling this forum, if you have been living under a rock for the past four years, or if you are being deliberately obtuse.

I will tell you a little later what other attacks to the Catholic faith that concern me the most as all Catholics should be concerned of also.

 

[pnewton]

So, to summarize: The Republican party, whilst better than the Democrats, seems to still commit many serious and “abominable crimes” (Vatican II: Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.) which go fundamentally against the Catechism and the teachings of the Church. Then, I have made quotes from the Catechism (CCC No. 2242 | YouCat No. 377) which say that we should NOT be supporting these sort of people but, in fact, we should be offering resistance.

Yet, if we read the teaching of Faithful Citizenship, we find the bishops, relying on the same Catechism, have concluded differently. While your position is allowable, so is the position that allows support of politicians that are seeking to* reduce* abortion.

The reason is that the Republican Party does not commit abortions, but takes a different prudential approach as to how an reduce the number of abortions. I do not understand, when we have clear teaching that allows for disagreement on the best way to reduce abortion. I do not understand why people on both sides do not allow for the same difference of opinion that we are told exists. If the Church allows disagreement on the prudence of voting, then surely we should exercise understanding with each other.

 

[je333]

There is no party that fits this description. I do no think it very moral to make a bunch of junk up off the top of your head and apply it to other people. I understand that the Republican party is more favorable to the rich than the Democrat Party, or at least is easily perceived that way. But the moral condemnation and judgment you lavish upon them is very un-Christlike and not in keeping with Catholic teaching about the respect for others.

You seem to know Jesus more than me. So, tell me, Michael, how is Christ really like? And with regards to judging… well, I want you to help me judge a little later on my other posts on the issue of abortion.

For now I guess I will just repost this again, a 2000 year old version if you guys prefer which is more unforgiving…

Matthew 7:21 - 24
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[je333]

I doubt the poster got your humor on that one. Obviously, the concept of “conception” is lost on this one…

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There is no limit on our obligation to do good. Now, if you know of one, just let me know, too.

I don’t think you really mean that. If that were true then everyone would be damned, for no one can fulfill and infinite obligation, which you acknowledged in the very next sentance:

Obliviously we can not all the good in the world - we have physical limitations - but, once we decide that we are not going to do good - just is this an example of following Christ. Just look how the Saints looked for opportunities to do good.

Yes, but even the Saints picked their “goods”. Some of them ministered to the poor. Some of them preached the gospel at the cost of their lives. And other Saints did good deeds in other ways. But none of them did everything. But as you indeed acknowledged, no one can do everything.

Given that voting for Romney is a good, it can be chosen as a good one can do. But if I didn’t misunderstand you, you seemed to go further than that. You seemed to say that we all had an obligation to vote for Romney. But you don’t say we all have an obligation to minister to the poor or to write letters or to picket abortion clinics or to donate to worthy causes. If I have misinterpreted you then I apologize and withdraw my remarks. But I would appreciate a clarification of your admonition so that I can see that it is so.

This election is serious. For those who have not actually looked at the record - President Obama has quite a track record of lying to Catholics about what he plans to do. Let’s be clear: his speech at Notre Dame University where he received an honorary doctrate said he would repects conscience, repect those who do not agree with abortion and not attack their religious beliefs. Those were his words. Just look at his deeds…

Yes, your argument is very persuasive, but it is an argument for making the prudential judgment to vote against Obama. It is not a demonstration that Catholic doctrine requires that you vote against Obama. Note I am not saying that it is OK to vote for Obama. I am merely saying that it is not required that you vote against Obama.

When it comes to doing specific acts of good - you pick what you have determined is appropriate based on a rightly informed conscience. That is all anyone can do. So, if you want to write your elected representative - please, write a good letter that any Catholic Bishop could pick up and say, “I wish that person were in my diocese!” Please, do not put words in my mouth - I never said writing letters does not good. I encourage everyone to write their elected officials and tell them what you think.

OK, we agree on that. But if we are allowed to pick what good to do with regard to writing letters why can’t we pick what good to do with regard to voting? Is it not also a specific act of good?

Your stated disdain for voting against Obama (in Vermont - or any other state) is noteworthy.

It is only noteworthy if you were going to take the position that writing letters does no good. Since you did not take that position the comparison with voting against Obama in Vermont is moot.

I really do not have a hard time at all: we all have a positive duty to do good. On Nov 6, we have the opportunity to actually bring our Cathoic belief to the ballot box…

Yes, an opportunity, but you have not yet shown it is an obligation. Please note the distinction between and opportunity and an obligation. You have still not done it.

Now, if you have difficulty with this as a concept, I would appreciate you explaining the difficulty.

I have no difficulty with the concept. It just doesn’t do what you say it does - justify an obligation to vote in a specific way in this specific election.

I see no problem with the mental imagry of Christ walkiing into the voting booth and watching you as you cast your vote.

How about the mental imagry of Christ watching me as I stay home on election day and write letters?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, LeafByNiggle,

It is disappointing how you have twisted my comments. First, may I suggest you return to my post and see what you neglected to include and then distorted what I said. You certainly worked hard on this - but, let us just take what we have before us.

I don’t think you really mean that. If that were true then everyone would be damned, for no one can fulfill and infinite obligation, which you acknowledged in the very next sentance:

Yes, but even the Saints picked their “goods”. Some of them ministered to the poor. Some of them preached the gospel at the cost of their lives. And other Saints did good deeds in other ways. But none of them did everything. But as you indeed acknowledged, no one can do everything.

I did mean it. And, no, everyone will not be damned. Let’s move away from hyperbole and just look at what the Catholic Church teaches:

Catechism of the Catholic Church: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm beginning with #1913.

The Participation of Catholics in Political Life: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.htmly

The US Catholic Bishops: usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-one.cfm (beginning with #13)

What these three documents identify is that we as Catholics have a moral obligation - not to sit on our hands if we do not like the candidates - but to vote according to one’s informed and rightly informed conscience.

OK, we agree on that. But if we are allowed to pick what good to do with regard to writing letters why can’t we pick what good to do with regard to voting? Is it not also a specific act of good?

You are certainly free to do whatever good you want to do - there is no limit, it is really up to you. Seriously, if you want to write letters, put up signs and even go to Vermont if you are so inclined - but, please do not try to make up these unreasonable comparrisons. The issue is actually taking your civic responsibility seriously on Noverbem 6. Refusing to vote shows precious little interest in taking an active interest in doing good. And refusing to do good and allowing evil to prosper really does not seem like a moral positon.

Yes, your argument is very persuasive, but it is an argument for making the prudential judgment to vote against Obama. It is not a demonstration that Catholic doctrine requires that you vote against Obama. Note I am not saying that it is OK to vote for Obama. I am merely saying that it is not required that you vote against Obama.

You really have narrowed your choices considerably here - you either vote for someone other then Obama (which would be a vote against Obama) or you do not vote at all - which is my understanding of the position you have championed.

OK, you’re on - I have provided you with references on Catholic teachings about our obligation to do good and to work for the good of fellow citizens - how about you showing me a Catholic sources that actually backs up your position.

Yes, an opportunity, but you have not yet shown it is an obligation. Please note the distinction between and opportunity and an obligation. You have still not done it

I have no difficulty with the concept. It just doesn’t do what you say it does - justify an obligation to vote in a specific way in this specific election.

According to the US Bishops, participation in political life - voting - is a moral obligaton: usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/Forming-Consciences-Faithful-Citizenship-bulletin-insert.pdf

Now, when it comes to opportunity, may I encourage you to seize the day or be left in the backwaters of indifference while allowing fellow citizens to endure futher evil should Obama win re-election.

There is an important distinction that needs to be made - the obligation is NOT to vote FOR a particular person in a particular election. The obligation is to make an informed choice between the candidates and issues using your enlightened conscience. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

The idea you have provided of Christ watching you as you stay home and not voting but rather writing letters is one you will need to deal both now and later. Now, the image you have is that Christ would approve of this action / inaction of yours. If that is correct, do you have any Catholic reference that would back up that position?

God bless

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Let’s not perpetuate an atmosphere of conflict between these 2 religion. Let’s just focus on Christianity. Within Christian beliefs, I condemn any Christian denomination Churches that teach and preach blasphemous doctrines about the divinity of Jesus Christ, among them are, The Jehovah’s Witness, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, The Westboro Baptist Church, The Unification Church , etc., and any Christian Church hating other different religion outside of Christianity.

You have the power to personally condemn other churches, eh? I leave that kind of decision to the Catholic Church hierarchy.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TampaDave,

Was that note as bitter as it sounded… or just my imagination?

Please note, Christ did tell each of the Apostles to go out and do their own thing. What He did do was to found His Church on Peter, told him to bind and lose as he decided and that the Holy Spirit would lead this Church to all truth.

And, what is it that makes this fit in with the '…lesser of two evils…?

God bless

You have the power to personally condemn other churches, eh? I leave that kind of decision to the Catholic Church hierarchy.

 

[SuperLuigi]

This question was recently posted in the Ask an Apologist forum, follow this link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=701842

Since there are some who would like to discuss this topic, I am creating this thread even though there is no article link.

More information is here:
saviorquest.com/news1/catholicvoters.htm
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/index.cfm

N.B.: Please do not pass judgement on anyone on this thread, on any other thread or outside CAF.

All I can tell you on here is that if the democrats are re-elected, America as we know it is gone.

In order to vote for a candidate who is completely in line with Catholic teaching, you’d almost have to do a write-in.

I used to do that and I would like to get back to it, but we now have a political party in this country that is openly in favor of intrinsic evils and thinks it can run our Churches better than our leaders and scholars.

Voting for the lesser of two evils may be accurate in the Catholic sense (although JPII noted this was permissible to prevent greater evil) which is good because in our two party system, if you vote third party you are really just helping someone else win.

Keep in mind too that progressives love the “lesser of two evils” argument because it depresses the conservative religious vote and gives people an excuse to vote their way.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Let’s not perpetuate an atmosphere of conflict between these 2 religion. Let’s just focus on Christianity. Within Christian beliefs, I condemn any Christian denomination Churches that teach and preach blasphemous doctrines about the divinity of Jesus Christ, among them are, The Jehovah’s Witness, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, The Westboro Baptist Church, The Unification Church , etc., and any Christian Church hating other different religion outside of Christianity.

The conflicts are there whether we want them or not. But the purpose of my mentioning
them is that Obama is not supporting the Christians in this country, and is definitely
supporting secularism and Islam. Romney’s actions are good, he is charitable and
kind and “christian”. He has supported the Catholic Church in ways that Obama has not.
He shares christian values and acts on them. Heads above what our current president is
doing or sharing.
I am not sure how to quote more than one post, but I am still waiting for you to address
the comments that you were going to address “later.”

 

[jediliz]

Obama voters: Please don’t forget that Obama expanded tax payer funding of EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH…wasting our tax $ on killing HUMAN EMBRYOS for medical research which has found ZERO cures. But I guess that doesn’t matter because he’s a christian and ‘cares’ about the poor?

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

…

I will touch on this topic on my other posts a little later.

Just a reminder that this topic (HHS mandate) is still waiting your comments.::

 

[je333]

iHi, Je333,

Obama has been destructive to the overall health of this country. Promising his version of ‘bread and circus’ (ObamaCare, taxing the wealthy, continuing to increase the $16 trillion debt for social programs he has tinkered with [taking funds from Medicare to fund ObamCare] - and the list goes on. Those who vote for Obama are making a conscious decision that his policies are what they want. ‘Catholics’ who vote for Obama because of his pro-death policies stopped being Catholics when they began to believe the lie that death is good and life is evil - the tune sung by the abortionists.

We will all answer for this November vote.

God bless

Depending on your social and economic status, Obama has not been destructive to the overall health of this country. Taxing the wealthy is the right thing to do. ObamaCare helps those who don’t have access to healthcare.

Catholics and anyone whose main vote is solely for abortion is inviting themselves into the gates of hell. Likewise, anyone who violates the 10 commandments, who woship the God of Mammon are throwing themselves into the lake of fire. A vote for Romney because you don’t believe that Jesus is God violates the top 2 commandments. A vote for Romney by rich and wealthy people to escape paying taxes violates “Thou shall not steal.” These are just a few examples.

 

[je333]

And your statement below, to which he responded, was not judgmental?

Tax break for the rich and wealthy by the Republican Party is a fact not a judgment… Read my posts later for the other issues…

 

[je333]

You have the power to personally condemn other churches, eh? I leave that kind of decision to the Catholic Church hierarchy.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

… Read my posts later for the other issues…

Still waiting…