Do you agree with this man's exegesis? He says sinners just die...

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scriptures that speak of eternal punishment. Death is NOT punishment… IT is an END to punishmnet…

St Mt 25:31-46

Luke 16:19-31

St Mt 18:23

St Faustina, a canonized saint, says this about Hell. She says that an angel actually took her to Hell. The 1st thing here is a vision she had. Her visit to Hell is in the 2nd paragraph:

"…I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And their number was so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings" (Diary 153).

" Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of Hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes Hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it, a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is conditional darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of satan, the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like. I, sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God. What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a Hell. When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. ***How terribly souls suffer ***there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, then offend You by the least sin. (Diary 741).
 
***if you’re still not convinced…

i say

Why take a chance??? ***
 
actually there is something even SCARIER than what St Faustina says… (well, actually it wouldn’t quite be so scary if it weren’t for what St Faustina says… .but anyhow…)

What Jesus says in

St Lk 13:24 & St Mt 7:21

He says that many will try to enter [the door to Heaven] but will not be strong enough… [which i interpret to mean godly enough] He shuts the door, then tells them, “Depart from me, you evil doers.” St Lk 13:24

He says that the road to eternal life is narrow and there are few who find it… St Mt 7:13?
 
[emphasis added]

Luke 16:19-31 'There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

'And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

'And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

'And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

'And in Hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

'And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

'But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

'Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

'For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

'Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

'And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

‘And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.’

.
 
No, I do not agree with that. It is wrong. For those who die in a state of mortal sin, Hell awaits them. That is dogma.
 
Isn’t that a Seventh Day Adventist belief?
Yes, SDA’s believe in *conditional immortality *and annihilation. See Wikipedia.com

You know, for preachers who insist on going “by the book” they seem to miss bits here and there - like Jesus parable about Lazarus; torment in the presense of angels; smoke that goes up forever; weeping and gnashing of teeth; their worm that never dies, etc.
 
Yes, SDA’s believe in *conditional immortality *and annihilation. See Wikipedia.com

You know, for preachers who insist on going “by the book” they seem to miss bits here and there - like Jesus parable about Lazarus; torment in the presense of angels; smoke that goes up forever; weeping and gnashing of teeth; their worm that never dies, etc.
they seem to miss bits here and there

here & there… They seem to miss the entire Bible… :eek:

but i suppose there are people out there who will listen to this stuff… people who believe what they want to believe…

i sometimes don’t like the idea of hell myself (the aaspect of its lasting forever). I don’t plan on going there but i know many who seem to be on that path…so i worry and wonder… but the longer i live the easier it is for me to believe in eternal Hell…& frankly, it is also easier to belive that most go there, as Jesus (and the saints) say… because sin is powerful in its destructiveness and many hang onto their sins …whether they see themselves doing that or not… they won’t let go totally…and do what Jesus says to do… They may do some of what He says but not all…

to reject Jesus is to reject the Truth… Even some who accept Him really don’t accept Him cuz they don’t accept everything He says and follow it as best they can. Thye are cafeterial Christians… And God does not ask the imposible… What he asks is not too dififulct… Therefore there is no excuse. people who say its too difficult are just trying to excuse themselves… but their excuses only work w/ humans…

If you believe and follow lies all your life…(the lie that you cna’t do it… etc) you will go to the Father of Lies when you die. so its all fairly logical.

maybe not always to my liking, but logical.
 
I have the impression that they believe they can teach with authority.

I decided to have a quick look around there web site. I came across this statement:
The World to Come program is produced by The Restored Church of God. We teach all the true doctrines of God, as taught to Christ’s Church by the original apostles, tracing our roots directly to the first-century Church.
“… tracing our roots directly to the first-century Church.”
:confused:
I wonder how they figure that. Anyone know?
(Maybe the answer is on the web site, but there’s only so much I can take before being drawn back to the Church.)
 
but i suppose there are people out there who will listen to this stuff… people who believe what they want to believe…

i sometimes don’t like the idea of hell myself (the aaspect of its lasting forever). I don’t plan on going there but i know many who seem to be on that path…
👍 I don 't wanna go there either! We get so hung up on it and need to remember that there is the polar opposite - paradise.🙂
 
👍 I don 't wanna go there either! We get so hung up on it and need to remember that there is the polar opposite - paradise.🙂
Jesus said not many make it there…

so I find myself concerned for others… but in the long run i have to realize that i can lead a horse to water… can’t make him drink… and sometimes i wonder if i am doing much leading… 😦 but… even if don’t “lead” horses very well… i know that God calls all to repentance… and whether I or anyone else leads the person, the person knows right from wrong &… if he ends up in Hell its his own doing…
 
I have the impression that they believe they can teach with authority.

I decided to have a quick look around there web site. I came across this statement:

“… tracing our roots directly to the first-century Church.”
:confused:
I wonder how they figure that. Anyone know?
(Maybe the answer is on the web site, but there’s only so much I can take before being drawn back to the Church.)
i KNOW the feeling!!! :banghead::ouch::hypno:

i guess they study all the stuff that sounds good and doesn’t sound too Catholic… all that Eucharist stuff… naw… not important… :rolleyes:
 
just wishful thinking… that we can sin and then just die… never have to pay for our evil…

this defies not only the Bible but common sense…

How could God be perfectly just and NOT discipline his children…

i guess HEll is perpetual discipline… discipline that never achieves anything but discipline nonetheless…

Pray for those on their way to Hell… .which apparently is almost everyone… :eek:😦
 
How is eternal torment for <100 years of wrongdoing even moral?

2/3 of the world is not even Christian… not many people are aware this religion’s rules out of the thousands of religions out there is the ‘correct’ one. Is it moral that they all deserve neverending suffering because of it?

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html
How can you think that we have the knowledge and brain-power to question God Himself?
We are not even eternal (yet) or divine.
To think of what God does in terms of ‘morality’ doesn’t really make any sense. Morality is based on God’s love. He Himself is not subject to it. He is ‘wholy other’.
  • We know that God is** all-knowing and all-loving**.
  • We also know that God is** both merciful and just**.
  • Only God really knows what will happen to each individual.
 
How can you think that we have the knowledge and brain-power to question God Himself?
This line of reasoning can be used to “justify” anything in any religion and merely dismisses honest query, therefore it doesn’t really help answer the question. What if someone from a non-Catholic religion used this line to justify their God/religion to you? Do you see how it doesn’t help?

Yes God is tri-omni, which is exactly why the existence of Hell is an issue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_hell
 
This line of reasoning can be used to “justify” anything in any religion and merely dismisses honest query, therefore it doesn’t really help answer the question. What if someone from a non-Catholic religion used this line to justify their God/religion to you? Do you see how it doesn’t help?

Yes God is tri-omni, which is exactly why the existence of Hell is an issue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_hell
Yes.
Anything can be justified.
Logical arguments can be made for virtually anything. (Occasionally even illogical arguments may be influential to many.)

But still, I firmly believe that it is rather presumptuous on our part to assume that we can understand all things and that we can subject God to the same standards that apply to us.

Firstly, we must always be aware of our assumptions.
You often see debates where people don’t even consider the assumptions they are basing their arguments on. (I especially remember this from my university days where people would dispute the existence of God simply because they were aware of some scientific theories that explained how God did something. For example, if you assume God does not exist then miracles can’t exist. If you assume that God does exist then there is no reason to doubt the existance of miracles.)

Secondly,
I found this in another thread and felt it applied here:
I think it was St. Anselm who said when speaking about the faith, that** we should not seek understanding in order to believe, but believe in order to understand**. (Thank-you Scoobyshme.)
To attempt to understand God’s Will we must begin with faith. With the eyes of faith we can begin to understand some of his ways.
If someone doubts that God is doing what is really right, all we can do is provide our reasons for trusting him – always out of faith. It is up to the doubter to decide if he/she can trust God first.

I may have made a dog’s breakfast out of this post, but I hope that there was a touch of clarity somewhere.
 
Yes.
Anything can be justified.
Logical arguments can be made for virtually anything. (Occasionally even illogical arguments may be influential to many.)

But still, I firmly believe that it is rather presumptuous on our part to assume that we can understand all things and that we can subject God to the same standards that apply to us.

Firstly, we must always be aware of our assumptions.
You often see debates where people don’t even consider the assumptions they are basing their arguments on. (I especially remember this from my university days where people would dispute the existence of God simply because they were aware of some scientific theories that explained how God did something. For example, if you assume God does not exist then miracles can’t exist. If you assume that God does exist then there is no reason to doubt the existance of miracles.)

Secondly,
I found this in another thread and felt it applied here:

To attempt to understand God’s Will we must begin with faith. With the eyes of faith we can begin to understand some of his ways.
If someone doubts that God is doing what is really right, all we can do is provide our reasons for trusting him – always out of faith. It is up to the doubter to decide if he/she can trust God first.

I may have made a dog’s breakfast out of this post, but I hope that there was a touch of clarity somewhere.
While this may work for someone who is already Catholic, how does this help those who are trying to sort out what is the truth and may not have that faith? Again, if I was to use this line of reasoning to non-Catholics, that they must trust in religion X first, and to another person - religion Y, and to another person - religion Z, and to another person - Catholicism, then how does that help them see how Catholicism is correct vs X/Y/Z?

One way a “logical” argument can be tested is through discussion with others with different backgrounds/ideas. I see it differently than ‘presumptuous’ - I see it as my duty to attempt to find out which, if any, religion is the truth, in order to best serve God. Were I a Scientologist, I am presuming (😉 )that you would hope that I would question inconsistencies in my beliefs. What would I say to God if He asked why I didn’t follow up on inconsistencies in religion X to be able to convert to religion K? If we do not question things(with a good heart), how can we grow to better serve God if we are potentially not doing it in the correct way to begin with?

Questioning religion is different than questioning God. In this hell debate, I am not questioning God, I am questioning Catholicism’s view of God. (To say that I am questioning God would mean that I would first need to believe Catholicism to be correct, and then be saying that God is acting poorly - I am saying it looks like Catholicism’s view of God is of Him being immoral, therefore how is Catholicism’s view correct if God is perfectly moral, what piece am I missing?)

Edit - I don’t necessarily require knowledge of ‘all things’ to be able to i.e. believe in Catholicism. As long as I have a strong foundation, I can dismiss small things that I do not know the answer to, but this question is one of the major ones that has played a large part in dismantling my previous Catholic faith due to not having an understandable answer. It is one of those pieces of foundation for me, so even if it is one of those ‘insignificant’ things that you can easily dismiss, it isn’t for me. It is perfectly acceptable to say you don’t know the answer to something, but for this issue I need more understanding, thanks.
 
While this may work for someone who is already Catholic, how does this help those who are trying to sort out what is the truth and may not have that faith? Again, if I was to use this line of reasoning to non-Catholics, that they must trust in religion X first, and to another person - religion Y, and to another person - religion Z, and to another person - Catholicism, then how does that help them see how Catholicism is correct vs X/Y/Z?

One way a “logical” argument can be tested is through discussion with others with different backgrounds/ideas. I see it differently than ‘presumptuous’ - I see it as my duty to attempt to find out which, if any, religion is the truth, in order to best serve God. Were I a Scientologist, I am presuming (😉 )that you would hope that I would question inconsistencies in my beliefs. What would I say to God if He asked why I didn’t follow up on inconsistencies in religion X to be able to convert to religion K? If we do not question things(with a good heart), how can we grow to better serve God if we are potentially not doing it in the correct way to begin with?

Questioning religion is different than questioning God. In this hell debate, I am not questioning God, I am questioning Catholicism’s view of God. (To say that I am questioning God would mean that I would first need to believe Catholicism to be correct, and then be saying that God is acting poorly - I am saying it looks like Catholicism’s view of God is of Him being immoral, therefore how is Catholicism’s view correct if God is perfectly moral, what piece am I missing?)

Edit - I don’t necessarily require knowledge of ‘all things’ to be able to i.e. believe in Catholicism. As long as I have a strong foundation, I can dismiss small things that I do not know the answer to, but this question is one of the major ones that has played a large part in dismantling my previous Catholic faith due to not having an understandable answer. It is one of those pieces of foundation for me, so even if it is one of those ‘insignificant’ things that you can easily dismiss, it isn’t for me. It is perfectly acceptable to say you don’t know the answer to something, but for this issue I need more understanding, thanks.
Hey Aleii,

I’m probably not the best person to sort out your questions, so I’ll start my relating my way of trying to discern which religion, if any, holds the truth.
Important for my understanding;
  • Those who have come before me and thought out proofs, eg St. Thomas of Aquin. Or even C.S. Lewis.
  • Historical events. Such as a record of God becoming Man. This unique event in history changed the simple apostles to the extent that they were willing to die for the truth they learned.
  • The history of the Church. The Church had a definite beginning, being instituted by Christ Jesus (rather than, say, Martin Luther) and has a history of how it developed from the time of the Apostles.
  • Due to its history and teaching authority from God Himself I can use faith to start understanding things that are hard to accept.
That’s how it works for Reg, anyway. 🙂

So what I’ve done is started an new thread about this topic:
What is a strong foundation to believe that Catholic teachings are correct?
I quoted some of your most recent post there. Please visit it and correct anything so that it better reflects your questions.

Reg.
 
How is eternal torment for <100 years of wrongdoing even moral?

2/3 of the world is not even Christian… not many people are aware this religion’s rules out of the thousands of religions out there is the ‘correct’ one. Is it moral that they all deserve neverending suffering because of it?

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html
i look at it like this. 3 minus 2 always equals 1…

if you sin, you suffer, just as if you would if you had 3 cars and someone stole 2 of them…

Hell is just the consequences of not loving God as He deserves…it is the consequence resulting from loving something (someone) not worthy of your love… .like $$… material possessions, merely human relationshiops (humans are SO fickle… but even if they were not… they cannot save you… Only God [Jesus] can.

If you drive drunk and get a DWI… no one says that its unfair when you get punished by the law… esp when you could have killed innocent people…
 
Ok Reg, I’ll take a look at that new post. I’ve taken a look at other religion’s message boards and they have devout followers who will list reasons that their religion is ‘more true’ than the others too. The different religions were all looking very similar to me, which is why I turned to the more basic message of Catholicism, and when even that didn’t make sense to me, things fell apart.
Thanks for your response 🙂

Distracted - are you saying that 2 people suffering eternally with 1 getting salvation is ‘good enough’? Think of it - more than trillions of lifetimes of suffering for 2 people. Do you really agree that this is better than even annihilation? Look at the story of God talking with Abraham about how He agreed to save an overwhelmingly bad city if just a few good people were present. If we were to superficially postulate that it is easier to get into Hell than Heaven, how does it make sense to you that people being horribly tortured is ok, especially thinking about that Biblical story? How is this OK considering a perfectly benevolent/merciful God?

I understand the need for punishment when someone does something wrong(finite purgatory makes sense), but I don’t understand why that punishment should be eternal with no chance at respite/redemption, especially when the ‘rules’ are really not that clear to most of the world. That seems unnecessarily cruel, especially when God knows what everyone needs to be saved. And who would really choose infinite torture?

Hell seems more focused on faith than love which is a big part of my issue with it. You can find very devout people of other religions, who love what they think is God, but because they don’t understand well enough to believe in Jesus, they are potentially going to hell. I can not choose to believe that 1+1=3 because it fundamentally doesn’t make sense to me - it is impossible for me, even if you were to threaten thousands of deaths, or offer me millions of dollars I couldn’t see a way to do it even though the desire is there.

To be able to reject something, you need to have knowledge that it is true in order to have a choice to reject. I’m willing to bet that the 2/3 non-Christian haven’t accepted Jesus as the truth and chosen to reject Him and follow another, false religion. There are many people who have the desire and have done the right ‘actions’ to produce faith but simply don’t have it.

There are very clear laws about driving drunk and what the punishment for it is. Having one religion out of thousands be true is not clear at all.
 
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