Do you agree with transgenderism

[goout]

Actually, St Pope John Paul II gave a series of 129 lectures that were gathered and published under the title “Theology of the Bible”.

They are not in and of themselves doctrinal statements, they do contain and expound on some doctrines, other parts are simply the good Saint’s learned opinions.

Many authors and speakers have made a career out of providing their own interpretation of these lectures.

Would you point me to the St Pope JPII lecture you are referencing that speaks about transgenderism?

Theology of the Body refers to God’s creation as it is. It is grounded in reality. It appeals to common sense. It appreciates the human body as it is created “from the beginning”.
It is not necessary for the teaching to anticipate movements that were not yet afoot.

 

[TheLittleLady]

One of the foundations of discussion, when I make a claim, I need to be able to back it up. If I do not have the evidence, then you will see me say “in my opinion” or “in my experience”.

You made the claim:

Theology of the Body was a papal statement, and transgender is against it.

It is okay to say “this was my own opinion”.

 

[Dougbro1]

I admit goout explained it better than I did when he said:

Theology of the Body refers to God’s creation as it is . It is grounded in reality. It appeals to common sense. It appreciates the human body as it is created “from the beginning”.
It is not necessary for the teaching to anticipate movements that were not yet afoot.

How does transgenderism not go against it?

 

[TheLittleLady]

It is not necessary for the teaching to anticipate movements that were not yet afoot.

There have been transgender people for as long as we have history. From people born with ambiguous genitalia to “cross dressers” and everything in between. Surgical sex reassignment has been published since 1930.

Everyone over age 50 remembers the famous Renee Richards surgery.

 

[PJH_74]

The LGBTQ movement today is a political movement based on the worse kind of assault on liberty. You can call for having rights and not being mistreated, but the LGBTQ movement goes far beyond that. They seek to make laws forcing people to accept their lifestyles.

You know, being forced to accept another’s beliefs and identity are ensconced in the Constitution. There was a time when “freedom of religion” didn’t really apply to Catholics and made one suspect to treason and the liberty gained though revolution. Yes, religion is a “lifestyle”.

You enjoy laws now that define Catholicism as a true religion that cannot be discriminated against, 100 years ago Catholics were disposable labor. Do really think there is no one out there that begrudges this, especially when it comes to freedom of speech? You seem to acknowledge some support for having rights and not being mistreated. What does that mean to you? Being able to make a living and make it trough the day in peace would seem to be part of that. The rights LGBTQ people are fighting for are not religious ones, they are social ones. Ones that form the lubrication of social interaction.

Transgender identity is not in itself a mental illness, something that prevents someone from supporting themselves, having normal human relations, and otherwise being productive members of society. Is having a belief in divine, undetectable being who regulates all things moral and physical about our world a mental illness? The Soviets certainly did. There are plenty of well adjusted people whose only real issues with human relations, self-support, and membership in society have all to do with societies attitudes towards them. I think one could fairly say the rate of mental illness is higher among transgender people, but a lot of mental illness is directly attributable to mistreatment. See a connection?

You seem to personalize this issue by asserting how it impinges on your freedom. Can you feel similarly, with more vigor, about the White Supremacists who’ve been touring the country reading “Mien Kampf” in public? This is a major crime in Germany, but by our Constitution they are free to do so, but may face substantial social penalties if they do, certainly more than you would on LGBTQ freedoms. Case and point, when that infamous “Tiki Torch rally” occurred, a photo included a picture of a T-shirt for my well know employer are the time. This prompted a massive internal search through about 50,000 employees to see if anyone matched the picture, this included a committee involving C level employees. Anyone examined would have had to provide proof that they could not have been there.

 

[goout]

goout:

It is not necessary for the teaching to anticipate movements that were not yet afoot.

There have been transgender people for as long as we have history. From people born with ambiguous genitalia to “cross dressers” and everything in between. Surgical sex reassignment has been published since 1930.

Everyone over age 50 remembers the famous Renee Richards surgery.

And it is not necessary for the Church’s teaching to address movements that are not yet started. The Church’s teaching applies, even when pressing social issues that were not immediately in need of address now appear as movements.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You know, being forced to accept another’s beliefs and identity are ensconced in the Constitution

Please provide the amendment and also, keep it current, not some 150 plus years ago.

Jim

 

[PJH_74]

Please provide the amendment and also, keep it current, not some 150 plus years ago.

The 14th Amendment Section 1, “Equal Protection Under the Law” clause is the most often cited portion. I’m sorry “Keeping it Current” ignores hard fought legal arguments to give you the status you enjoy which is current. You’ve also yet to answer the crux of my question, why do your social legal protections trump those of others who might disagree with yours? Can you not simply state that, yes, there are more onerous, anti-christian, legally protected activities you are expected to tolerate the existence of, but not necessarily support? This IS an important question because acknowledgement of decreasing basic tolerance of a person’s established immutable identity (including race and religion) has taken a major backseat to fighting LGBTQ rights.

 

[Cimachol]

I have spent way more time learning about this than I ever wanted to, because my someone in my family is struggling with the belief that she is really a boy inside. (Apparently the number of teenage girls experience has shot way up in just a few years; it’s sometimes called rapid-onset gender dysphoria.)

Basically, what I understand the Church to be teaching is that our bodies matter. They are not just things we have, they are a part of who and what we are. We are not spirits operating bodies; we are body and spirit. God created our bodies male and female, both in his image, and these bodies are sacred. A person whose body is male, is male; the desire to be female does not change the fact that the only way this person can participate in God’s plan for procreation is as a father. Likewise if the person is female; the only way that person can participate in God’s plan for procreation is as a mother. You are either male or female, and that is determined by your body, not your spirit or your will.

My heart breaks for anyone who struggles with feeling that their sex is not what it ought to be. Still, I have found nothing that leads me to believe it would be good to pretend that my daughter is actually a boy or for her to have her body altered in anyway to appear more masculine.

From a theological perspective, the problem with trangenderism, is that it denies what is true and good and works against God’s plan for the human body. At its worst, transgendersim involves taking parts of the body that are designed toward a certain end and rendering them incapable of achieving that end, as if the body were a mere utilitarian object to be “repurposed” according to our own desires. Even where no actual “work” is done directly to the body through hormones or surgery, going through life pretending that something is true when it never can be is not healthy, especially when the truth is about something so integral to one’s being as one’s sex. And deceiving others or demanding that others pretend to believe this is not reasonable either.

Additionally, I don’t believe that attempts to change one’s gender can really lead to happiness. Suicide rates are drastically higher among those who attempt to “transition,” even in countries that are known to be generally accepting of transgenderism. I believe this is because we cannot attain true happiness by rejecting God’s plan and living in denial of who and what we are.

A truly compassionate response does not involve insulting or ostracizing those who struggle with gender dysphoria, nor does it involve trying to deny reality. It must involve helping those facing this challenge see God’s purpose in creating them male or female and embracing the reality, dignity and wonder of who they truly are.

 

[Cimachol]

We do have the reality of intersex people. They are born with male and female genitalia. The usual treatment was to convert all intersex babies to girls. Many adult intersex people resent these procedures. They suffer greatly and deserve our compassion.

There is a book called “When Harry Became Sally” that delves into the differences between intersex people and those who seek gender-reassignment surgery. People with disorders of sexual development are either male or female but have chromosomal or other issues that cause irregularities in the development of their sexual organs. Intersex people typically do not identify themselves with the transgender community, and the Intersex Society of North America does not endorse disorders of sexual development as constituting a third sex. Treatments of these disorders would be directed toward correcting those disorders so that the patients’ bodies can work the way they are supposed to, just as you might, if possible, perform a surgery on any other part of the body that is not functioning as it should.

Gender-reassignment surgery takes organs that may be functioning exactly as they should and altering them to give them the appearance of being something they are not, often destroying their functionality in the the process.

 

[Thorolfr]

Additionally, I don’t believe that attempts to change one’s gender can really lead to happiness. Suicide rates are drastically higher among those who attempt to “transition,” even in countries that are known to be generally accepting of transgenderism. I believe this is because we cannot attain true happiness by rejecting God’s plan and living in denial of who and what we are.

A truly compassionate response does not involve insulting or ostracizing those who struggle with gender dysphoria, nor does it involve trying to deny reality. It must involve helping those facing this challenge see God’s purpose in creating them male or female and embracing the reality, dignity and wonder of who they truly are.

You said that “suicide rates are drastically higher among those who attempt to ‘transition’”. What are they higher than? Are they higher than those of people who aren’t transgender or are they higher than those of transgender people who didn’t transition? Most of the time when sources opposed to transitioning quote suicide statistics, it almost always involves a comparison of suicide rates among transgender people and the general population which is not a useful comparison to make. What we really want to know is whether transgender people who transition are more likely to commit suicide than transgender people who didn’t transition and from what I’ve read, people who transition are happier and less likely to commit suicide than transgender people who didn’t transition.

And I don’t think that transgender people are living in denial so much as they are trying to alleviate the gender dysphoria and unfortunately, there are no good treatments to do this. Just doing talk therapy with a psychologist or taking an antidepressant or praying a lot is not going to fix the problem. Transitioning has been found to be the most effective treatment for some people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You posted:

you know, being forced to accept another’s beliefs and identity are ensconced in the Constitution

You’ve yet to show where in the Constitution, it forces us to accept another’s beliefs and identity

Jim

 

[TheLittleLady]

You said that “suicide rates are drastically higher among those who attempt to ‘transition’”. What are they higher than? Are they higher than those of people who aren’t transgender or are they higher than those of transgender people who didn’t transition?

I’d also like to see the source for this claim. @cimachol please link the study.

 

[Thorolfr]

There is a book called “When Harry Became Sally” that delves into the differences between intersex people and those who seek gender-reassignment surgery. People with disorders of sexual development are either male or female but have chromosomal or other issues that cause irregularities in the development of their sexual organs. Intersex people typically do not identify themselves with the transgender community, and the Intersex Society of North America does not endorse disorders of sexual development as constituting a third sex. Treatments of these disorders would be directed toward correcting those disorders so that the patients’ bodies can work the way they are supposed to, just as you might, if possible, perform a surgery on any other part of the body that is not functioning as it should.

How should people with complete Androgyn Insensitivity Disorder be treated? They are genetically XY but they grew up looking exactly like women on the outside. They are indistinguishable from other women without a medical examination and most didn’t even realize that they were genetically XY until they failed to menstruate and went to the doctor. Should they be surgically corrected to make them look like men?

 

[TheLittleLady]

This book is authored by a Research Fellow at the Heritage Foundation (a Republican, very conservative think-tank). His degree is in Political Philosophy, so, I would consider this book to be very much an opinion piece.

Disclaimer, I started reading it and did not finish it.

 

[Cimachol]

How should people with complete Androgyn Insensitivity Disorder be treated? They are genetically XY but they grew up looking exactly like women on the outside. They are indistinguishable from other women without a medical examination and most didn’t even realize that they were genetically XY until they failed to menstruate and went to the doctor. Should they be surgically corrected to make them look like men?

That would be up to them. As far as I know, the Church’s moral teachings would not require that.

 

[Finn]

Transgender ideology is a full frontal attack on the family & a rejection of reality.

It has inflicted grievous harm on some of society’s most vulnerable people.

Its rapid spread combined with the reluctance of many to speak out against it is indicative of great intellectual and spiritual disorientation.

 

[PJH_74]

You’ve yet to show where in the Constitution, it forces us to accept another’s beliefs and identity

You apparently want to argue wording with me, but I think it abundantly clear that requiring equal protection is the required acceptance of one’s beliefs and identity. Given this and your reluctance to deviate from your perceived victimization despite my pointing out how the social acceptance of Catholicism has also benefited you, I think we’ve little further to discuss.

 

[CathoRick]

No, I do not agree with promoting self-harm among the mentally ill and impressionable youths.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Equal protection doesn’t force us to accept the beliefs of others.

You have a flawed interpretation of the Constitution.

The Constitution is about limiting the Government, not forcing us to accept beliefs.

Jim