Do you agree with transgenderism

[PJH_74]

The Constitution is about limiting the Government, not forcing us to accept beliefs.

This is a very Libertarian view of the Constitution, the first party to adopt LGBTQ rights I might add. So if the Constitution is the basis of our laws and you subscribe to this view of the Constitution, why is limiting LGBTQ rights consistent with this? The initial application of the 14th Amendment was to prohibit government abridgment of the rights of former slaves and legal rulings have expanded it to further protect other classes of people. Your viewpoint is that government is limiting your rights, but the point of the 14th was quite the opposite.

 

[Cimachol]

Most of the time when sources opposed to transitioning quote suicide statistics, it almost always involves a comparison of suicide rates among transgender people and the general population which is not a useful comparison to make. What we really want to know is whether transgender people who transition are more likely to commit suicide than transgender people who didn’t transition and from what I’ve read, people who transition are happier and less likely to commit suicide than transgender people who didn’t transition.

Fair questions. This study looked at suicide rates of those who had undergone gender reassignment surgery in Sweden, and as you mention, compared suicide rates of those who had undergone the surgery to that of the general population: Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The study found the rate to be about 19 times higher among those who had undergone the surgery in Sweden during the time examined, compared with that of the general population. You are right that this does not show us what the rate was among those who experienced gender dysphoria and did not undergo surgery for comparison. Still, a suicide rate that is 19 times higher would suggest to me that this treatment is not exactly doing wonders for the patients.

A study of “Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults” by the Williams Institute at UCLA found that, in general the rate of suicide attempts by individuals identifying as transgender or gender non-conforming in the U.S. was 41 percent overall, nearly 9 times higher than that of the overall U.S. population (4.6 percent). In general, those had received transition-related health care or wanted to have it someday were more likely to report having attempted suicide than those who identified as transgender or non-forming but said they did not want such treatments. There was generally very little difference in attempted suicide rates between those who had received surgery and those who had not received such treatments put hoped to someday. Unfortunately, the study did not indicate whether those suicide attempts occurred before or after the surgeries or hormone treatments had taken place.

I agree that current psychological methods have not been shown to fix the problem. However, I have not seen that surgery or hormones, either. Even if it did lower the suicide rate, as the Church teaches, using immoral means to achieve a desirable end is still immoral. I am very much in favor of continued research into moral ways to help those experiencing gender dysphoria come to terms with their bodies.

 

[PJH_74]

This study looked at suicide rates of those who had undergone gender reassignment…

I think one issue that seems to be missing here is the effect of social rejection and much higher rates of murder, sex work, homelessness, etc. All of these are well know factors that drive suicide. Beauty culture is especially hard on male to female transgender people (who are a large portion of the transgender population) and almost certainly drives a good number of related surgeries. As any person who seeks plastic surgery to assuage their feelings of inadequacy and places the judgement of the results in others, there will be a high rate of dissatisfaction. The most successful ones are those judged a success by the patient only. I’d submit that the reality of the transgender experience in the US means more are placing the judgement of the results in the general population.

 

[JimG]

There are two sexes, male and female. Except for rare medical or genetic anomalies, every individual is conceived and born as male or female. The two sexes are not interchangeable, and one cannot be changed into the other.

A person’s particular feelings about his or her sex does not change anything. A man may feel like a woman, but he is not a woman. A woman may feel like a man but she is not a man.
Anyone can prefer any particular types of activitie.s; whether they are typically male or typically female does not prevent the other sex from doing them.

A man may consider himself to be a woman but he can never bear a child. A woman may consider herself to be a man but she can never father a child.

 

[njlisa]

@Dougbro1

I don’t agree with it.
It’s like looking at the gender God made you, then shouting up to Heaven, “You’re wrong!”

Hi, Liam, friend in Christ:

Thanks for your comments.
I am the first to admit I don’t understand the genesis of transgenderism.

In reflecting on your post, I was reminded of the plight of intersex people, who are born with female and male genitalia? They can’t prevent their physical anomaly. And they aren’t evil.

@prayerrider

Dear Friend in Christ:

Thanks for your comments.

Of course they do. It doesn’t surprise me that the mental health problem that is transgenderism is part of a constellation that includes other mental health problems. Compassion and treatment (including spiritual)? Of course! Validation, enabling, “transitioning?” Of course not!

I do agree that compassion and treatment are vital.

One of the big problems with transitioning is how quickly doctors allow it to happen. In the '70s, people who wanted to live as the opposite sex were required to “pass” for two years. Now, some counselors fast-track the process after a handful of visits.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

How should people with complete Androgyn Insensitivity Disorder be treated? They are genetically XY but they grew up looking exactly like women on the outside. They are indistinguishable from other women without a medical examination and most didn’t even realize that they were genetically XY until they failed to menstruate and went to the doctor. Should they be surgically corrected to make them look like men?

That would be up to them. As far as I know, the Church’s moral teachings would not require that.

More to the point, would the Church consider it moral for someone with complete AIS to have surgery and take hormones to make themselves look like a male just because they are XY genetically but grew up looking like a female? They would be doing exactly what every female-to-male Transgender person does who has a complete transition. They would have to have a mastectomy to remove their breasts, and take hormones to grow facial hair, and perhaps have a male sexual organ constructed, etc.

 

[Dougbro1]

With all due respect I never said they were evil. What I am referring to is people who are definitely one gender, no intersex etc. and then decide they are the opposite gender. For the people you refer to I feel bad for the confusion they have. In all honesty, I never heard of that until now. As people created in the image and likeness of God, they still deserve respect. I never write the people I hear of living today as 100% good or 100% evil. I do pray for people who are like this, though.
God Bless!

 

[TheLittleLady]

Agree.

We have to realize how truly difficult it is to be “different”.

The suicide rate is higher among people with disabilities People with Physical Health Problems or Disabilities | Suicide Prevention Resource Center (in my own disability, of my circle of acquaintances, the most deaths in that group have been suicide).

 

[Jimbo]

Agree with it? I don’t know enough about it to say from a meta level. What I can say I understand from my reading is this:

A) It looks like we have a legitimate mental condition called gender dysphoria. I’d like to use science and reason to find the best ways to treat this; to help those people feel whole and try to reduce their suicide rates.

B) The causes of gender dysphoria are unknown to us at this time. It appears to be something of a symptom more than a cause; almost like pnuemonia. For some, it may be entirely psychological with various causes. For others, there may be a physical component.

C) The idea of ‘identifying’ as a gender is far more mysterious and seems to have very little data as to causes or solutions. Some of those who have psychological causes and maybe physical causes are lumped in under this; but there are others who seem to be very fluid, with no apparent causes at all.

I am very, very, very against surgical or hormonal care for children. I believe altering a child’s genitalia because a parent says they identify as another gender should be as illegal as FGM; and for similar reasons. We don’t know enough to say permanent physical changes to the body are any sort of solution at all.

I am also against trans people competing in athletic competitions of their identified gender. A trans woman with a mans physical body breaking weight lifting records is hardly fair.

I’m willing to make all sorts of accomodations for a young person who identifies as trans, short of physical changes that may harm them more in the long run; but those accomodations also have to take into account the fairness and considerations of others. A trans girl with male genitalia in a womans locker room may be very traumatic for a young lady who has been a victim of sexual assault. My immediate thought is that we give them a third option for changing facilities to keep them safe, as well as others safe.

So do I agree with it? It is what it is. I do disagree with the current idea that ‘Someone is a woman because they say so, and we must act accordingly’. But I do think that these are suffering people whom we must treat with the most compassion and care as we can.

 

[Cimachol]

The study was looking at Sweden, though, which is one of the countries most accepting of transgenderism, from what I understand. But I believe that a certain lack of acceptance is inevitable. It seems to me that there are a natural differences in the way men interact with other men, and women interact with other women, and men and women interact with each other, even when there is no romantic interest whatsoever. I believe that is natural and healthy Therefore there is always going to be some rejection when others are able to tell that someone is not truly the gender they are presenting. I do my best to be accepting of everyone as human beings, but if I know someone is in fact a man, I am not going to accept him as a woman, or if I know she is a woman, I am not going to accept her as a man.

 

[JimG]

I’m not really sure of just what it is that a transgender person wants to achieve. If a biological male perceives himself as a woman, does he want to be fully accepted to the public as a woman? As a transwoman, does he wish to date men? If so, there would certainly be some disclosure needed. Because in reality he is not a woman no matter his appearance.

 

[Jimbo]

I think that is a very valid point. One of the things we have to be careful with is what counts as ‘rejection’ too.

Some things we can address outwardly: I’ve read in some areas that murders of a trans person, or a homeless trans person, might not be prosecuted as vigorously. In situations like that we really have to treat murder as murder. Similarly, we would need to make sure that you couldn’t refuse a trans person a home because they are trans.

Other things we can’t address because we can’t make something fair that is just a side effect of their condition. For example I’ve read that it’s very hard for, say, a trans woman to find a cis man to date. Some are attributing that to prejudice, but much could just be to cis men not wanting to date someone who is or even was biologically male.

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether or not there might be a third way for at least some: work towards therapy to accept who you are as you are, or be accepting of whatever results of surgery you may want in a realistic fashion. But that’s just idle wondering on my part. I"m not a psychologist and I’m not an expert by any means.

 

[amt1985]

Two points:

1. I’m not an “-ism.” I’m a person.
2. There is no such thing as agreeing or disagreeing with whether someone is trans. We’re people. We exist. Our existence is not up for debate.

 

[GEddie]

I only hope so.

Sadly, now that the civil state’s coercive arm has been deployed on behalf of those promoting it, it may be many years before gender theory goes away.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[PJH_74]

For example I’ve read that it’s very hard for, say, a trans woman to find a cis man to date. Some are attributing that to prejudice, but much could just be to cis men not wanting to date someone who is or even was biologically male.

There are men just the same who chase Trans women, though too many do as a fetish or similar.

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether or not there might be a third way for at least some: work towards therapy to accept who you are as you are, or be accepting of whatever results of surgery you may want in a realistic fashion.

That’s what any ethical approach towards dealing with transgender people should be. Unfortunately parts of society are refusing to give much space for this or creating to be “acceptable”.

 

[Thorolfr]

I’m not really sure of just what it is that a transgender person wants to achieve.

Like most of us, a transgender person probably just wants to be happy and live a fulfilling life. But if someone suffers from distress (gender dysphoria) because there is a disconnect between their outward physical sex and their inward sense of what gender they belong to (gender identity), it’s probably hard to be happy and fulfilled, so they might want to do something to alleviate that psychological distress. So far, the only treatment that seems to help relieve the symptoms of gender dysphoria to some extent is by changing what their outward body looks like so that it more closely aligns with their gender identity.

 

[Thorolfr]

Jimbo:

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether or not there might be a third way for at least some: work towards therapy to accept who you are as you are, or be accepting of whatever results of surgery you may want in a realistic fashion.

That’s what any ethical approach towards dealing with transgender people should be. Unfortunately parts of society are refusing to give much space for this or creating to be “acceptable”.

I’m sure that most transgender people are getting some sort of therapy at whatever stage they are at. Some, no doubt, don’t want to have surgery or take hormones of any kind. But others do, and I’m sure that they, too, will be getting therapy throughout the process.

 

[PJH_74]

I’m sure that most transgender people are getting some sort of therapy at whatever stage they are at. Some, no doubt, don’t want to have surgery or take hormones of any kind. But others do, and I’m sure that they, too, will be getting therapy throughout the process.

So for sure. Yes I’m sure there are cases that aren’t following the “standards of care” , but to presume most cases are such is another thing. Surgery is expensive and especially anything regarding genitalia. I don’t know the rates and I don’t know there is any recorded information regarding so, but surgery is not a desire nor a possibility for everyone. This assumption fuels much of the opposition to transgender identities.

This opens the question of, do you oppose transgender causes because of surgery and not being able to support an "actual’ change of gender or are you opposed to it in general? The point being is one opposed to changing sex itself or is it the social status of a person? While I understand Catholic doctrine is probably opposed to everything in this category, is there not less of an issue when it comes to simply recognizing a person’s desire to live a different gender identity while not changing reproductive capacity?

 

[Thorolfr]

This opens the question of, do you oppose transgender causes because of surgery and not being able to support an "actual’ change of gender or are you opposed to it in general? T

I suspect that most people who are opposed are opposed to the very notion that a person should identify with a gender other than the one usually associated with their birth sex regardless of whether they ever have surgery or not.

 

[JimG]

I have read that most transgenders do not wish to have surgery to change or modify or reconstruct their genitals. In any case, surgery of any kind will not change their actual sex. I do not know whether a person who transitions to a different sex wishes to date or marry a person of their original sex or of the opposite sex. Does a transwoman want to marry a cis-man even if they both have male genitals?