Do you agree with transgenderism

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Forcing girls and women to accept boys and men in their sports and showers is another veiled attack on women, usually done by those who CLAIM to fight FOR women.
 
ASC said:
I think it’s blasphemous to suggest that God made someone with the wrong body parts. That is, in essence, their postulation; they believe that they were born in the wrong body.
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Dear Friend in Christ:

I’ve made this point before. But some people are born with the wrong body parts. God does allow the genetic anomaly that creates intersex people, who are born with male and female parts. It’s quite a burden for them, and they are not to blame for their physical condition.

God bless you, Lisa.
 
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Agreed. I also agree that it isn’t a trivial matter to them, and I did not intend to give that impression. I fail to see how a 4 yr old can know for such certainty/be adamant that they are in the wrong body - they lack the maturity to make such drastic lifelong decisions/choices.

I too hope that doctors do all they can to help their patients, but I cannot help thinking that doctors are being more and more too easily persuaded to acquiesce to their patients wishes. IMO, I would think it is more important to help them come to terms with reality rather than changing reality to fit with them. I have read personal accounts of people who did in fact change sexes only to regret doing so further down the track.

I respect them as individuals as we are all created by God. But God made them male and female. I don’t think God made a mistake.

So I guess at the end of this dialogue you and I might have to agree to disagree on our points of view.
 
njlisa said:
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ASC:
I think it’s blasphemous to suggest that God made someone with the wrong body parts. That is, in essence, their postulation; they believe that they were born in the wrong body.
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Dear Friend in Christ:

I’ve made this point before. But some people are born with the wrong body parts. God does allow the genetic anomaly that creates intersex people, who are born with male and female parts. It’s quite a burden for them, and they are not to blame for their physical condition.

God bless you, Lisa.
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Many children are also born with all sorts of birth defects and other deformities, many of which are now correctable through modern medicine, yet no one complains that such treatment is insulting the creator who made the body. If you accept that, for whatever reason, God allows these things to happen, then accepting that some people are born “in the wrong body” should be easy for you. After all, it’s the person’s soul that defines who they are, not their body.
 
amt1985 said:
If you accept that, for whatever reason, God allows these things to happen, then accepting that some people are born “in the wrong body” should be easy for you. After all, it’s the person’s soul that defines who they are, not their body.
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I think it’s blasphemous to suggest that God made someone with the wrong body parts.
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Dear Friend in Christ:
Thanks for pointing out your concerns and giving me the chance to clarify.

My comment exclusively applied to the genetic component of intersex people. In their case, they are born with the wrong body parts. Their condition has nothing to do with blasphemy.

I can say gender is defined by more than one component.
  1. Gonadal
  2. Chromosomal
  3. Hormonal
  4. Secondary characteristics (facial hair, body shape, etc.)
I don’t know about the origin of transgenderism. So I’m not drawing causal links on this condition.

God bless you.
 
I mean the way people look at me when I say I’m against homosexual relationships and transgenderism, like if you’re allowed to agree with it, I’m allowed to DISagree with it.
God bless our future generations. I’m 17 and my generation is already ‘fully supportive’ of it all. I do see your point although (hopefully) it won’t come to that.
 
That is a extremely well written post. Without reading the rest of the thread, it should be the last word.
 
Thorolfr said:
You said that “suicide rates are drastically higher among those who attempt to ‘transition’”. What are they higher than? Are they higher than those of people who aren’t transgender or are they higher than those of transgender people who didn’t transition? Most of the time when sources opposed to transitioning quote suicide statistics, it almost always involves a comparison of suicide rates among transgender people and the general population which is not a useful comparison to make. What we really want to know is whether transgender people who transition are more likely to commit suicide than transgender people who didn’t transition and from what I’ve read, people who transition are happier and less likely to commit suicide than transgender people who didn’t transition.
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While I understand your point, I disagree that the statistic is not a useful comparison. Looking at the statistic which you claim would be more useful, there are obviously two possibilities. The first being that transitioned people have a higher rate than those who have gender dysphoia and do not transition. Not much need to discuss this, so lets assume the second, the rate of those who transition is lower than thos with gender dysphoria and do not transition. Its better, so that has to be a great idea, lets get them all to transistion!!! Not so fast, the end result is still a group of people who have a drastically higher suicide rate than the general population. Its safe to say that something is still wrong with them. Perhaps a certain percentage are still happier. But it is very possible that there are subsets of them where they are worse, eg perhaps those who transition at too young of an age. I do not think it is wise to encourage a “treatment” which still has a high rate of failure, without understanding when and how it succeeds or fails. That’s what we do know from what you claim is useless: the “treatment” fails a lot of times.
 
PJH_74 said:
Transgender identity is not in itself a mental illness, something that prevents someone from supporting themselves, having normal human relations, and otherwise being productive members of society.
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That kind of says that as long as you can hold down a job and find someone willing to live with you if you want somebody, you don’t have a mental illness, no matter what delusions you’re carrying around.

Is that what you’re saying: that is, because some oppressive regimes persecuted religious people by treating them as if they were delusional, it is impossible for an employable person to be delusional?

Be on whatever side of this issue that you want, but let’s not go down that road.
 
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There are people who are ablebodied who purposely cripple themselves because they identify as disabled.

There are also people who identify as another race and take steps to alter their skin color in order to transition into the race they identify as. Just how far do we allow mentally ill people to indulge in their delusions before we recognize that they pose a danger to themselves and others? At what point do we put them into mental health facilities where they can get the help they need?
 
That_Flint_Guy said:
There are people who are ablebodied who purposely cripple themselves because they identify as disabled.

There are also people who identify as another race and take steps to alter their skin color in order to transition into the race they identify as. Just how far do we allow mentally ill people to indulge in their delusions before we recognize that they pose a danger to themselves and others? At what point do we put them into mental health facilities where they can get the help they need?
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Don’t forget the people with species dysphoria.


“I don’t remember any point in my life where I didn’t feel a sort of awareness of my self that was different or other than my body,” said Miniar, an Icelandic otherkin. “I guess I assumed everyone had that sort of a thing, where they felt as if they had a tail or as if they could move their ears more than the physical ears would move, or generally felt as if they weren’t the same as their body.”

or

The accessibility of Reddit and Tumblr has irrevocably changed the way the otherkin community operates, making everything more visible and public. For old-timers, a few of the private mailing lists are still going, such as the 25-year-old Elfinkind Digest. Its minimalist homepage was last updated in August 2013 with a warning: "This is not a list for or about role-playing or role-playing games; we’re elves. Deal with it." [Boldface mine: PetraG]

I don’t know that every mental health issue calls for institutionalization. I do want to preserve the right of the sane to say, “No, you are not an elf. You are a human being. That is the immutable truth. The only truth about you that is not independent of your self-concept is your self-concept. You are the expert about your feelings, but your feelings do not dictate reality outside your emotional world. Deal with it.”

If they cannot deal with that on their own, then the psychiatric community should be helping them to come to terms with reality, not attempting to treat their discomfort with reality by forcing society into accomodating their delusions. If they need support for their delusions to keep from harming themselves or others, they might require serious intervention, yes.
 
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That_Flint_Guy said:
Other kin?
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Apparently this is the term people use for themselves when they don’t believe they are human or don’t believe they are entirely human, but rather belong at least in part to some other species, whether that species is real (wolf, tiger, racoon, rabbit, etc) or imagined (elf, fairy, mermaid, etc).
 
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Thorolfr said:
More to the point, would the Church consider it moral for someone with complete AIS to have surgery and take hormones to make themselves look like a male just because they are XY genetically but grew up looking like a female? They would be doing exactly what every female-to-male Transgender person does who has a complete transition. They would have to have a mastectomy to remove their breasts, and take hormones to grow facial hair, and perhaps have a male sexual organ constructed, etc.
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Context and intention have always been fundamental components of a moral decision. Shooting someone in self defense is the same action as shooting someone out of anger, but the two acts are morally different. Similarly, for a woman do have a mastectomy due to breast cancer is morally different from a woman having the same surgery because she just doesn’t like that having breasts makes it harder to disguise that she is a woman. For a man whose genitals are malformed to have that malformation corrected (to whatever extent that is possible) is fundamentally different from someone who has the genitalia proper to their sex operated upon because they wish they wish they had the genitals proper to the opposite sex. (I don’t know to what extent surgery can actually correct this problem, or if it would enable the man to engage in the marital act should he choose to pursue marriage.)
 
PetraG said:
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PJH_74:
Transgender identity is not in itself a mental illness, something that prevents someone from supporting themselves, having normal human relations, and otherwise being productive members of society.
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That kind of says that as long as you can hold down a job and find someone willing to live with you if you want somebody, you don’t have a mental illness, no matter what delusions you’re carrying around.

Is that what you’re saying: that is, because some oppressive regimes persecuted religious people by treating them as if they were delusional, it is impossible for an employable person to be delusional?

Be on whatever side of this issue that you want, but let’s not go down that road.
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The APA is the one that has basically decided that if a mental condition doesn’t cause significant impairment in various spheres of a person’s life, then it’s not a diagnosable mental disorder. As one article pointed out:
The Nomenclature Committee, APA’s scientific body addressing this issue [of whether homosexuality should remain a psychiatric diagnosis] also wrestled with the question of what constitutes a mental disorder. Robert Spitzer, who chaired a subcommittee looking into the issue, “reviewed the characteristics of the various mental disorders and concluded that, with the exception of homosexuality and perhaps some of the other ‘sexual deviations’, they all regularly caused subjective distress or were associated with generalized impairment in social effectiveness of functioning”
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And that’s basically the way the DSM is set up, too. If someone only has 4 out of 5 required symptoms to get a diagnosis for some disorder, they’re not going to get a diagnosis.
 
Thorolfr said:
And that’s basically the way the DSM is set up, too. If someone only has 4 out of 5 required symptoms to get a diagnosis for some disorder, they’re not going to get a diagnosis.
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“A guy walks into a psychiatrist’s office and says, hey doc, my brother’s crazy! He thinks he’s a chicken. Then the doc says, why don’t you turn him in? Then the guy says, I would but I need the eggs.”
–Woody Allen

I’ve told a lot of people that you can be as crazy as you want, as long as you don’t break any laws and you can hold down a job. I also like the quip, “the definition of a dysfunctional family is this: it is any family with more than one person in it.” Obviously, the line has to be drawn somewhere. We all have some less-than-functional ways we react to the world or that we use to cope, sometimes. That doesn’t mean that any deep-seated inclination that doesn’t expose us to jail time or keep us from holding down a job is something to throw a parade over.
 
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Sexual reassignment really didn’t take off in the US until 1979/1980. At the hospital where I worked, news was posted on a bulletin board. I walk in one day and see a notice that Sexual Reassignment Surgery would begin. One of the female employees had it and then appeared as a man. The problem is there was no change in bone structure. An X-Ray would have shown a woman.
 
edwest211 said:
Sexual reassignment really didn’t take off in the US until 1979/1980. At the hospital where I worked, news was posted on a bulletin board. I walk in one day and see a notice that Sexual Reassignment Surgery would begin. One of the female employees had it and then appeared as a man. The problem is there was no change in bone structure. An X-Ray would have shown a woman.
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Is it possible to tell whether a skeleton belongs to a male or female? The answer is, “not with certainty.”
While there are several differences between male and female skeletons on average, all the differences are relative so it is nearly impossible to identify gender from skeletal measurements alone. The majority of people will fall into the average ranges of bone size for their gender, but with so many people in the world (not to mention subtle differences between different ethnic groups due to geographical factors) there are bound to be a lot of statistical outliers.

Even the key discerning feature, the pelvis, can vary between individuals. Some women’s pelvic girdles are too narrow to accommodate childbirth and they must deliver a child through a Caesarian section. Some men are short, with rounded jaws and small frames. Even noting these subtle differences between the male and female skeletons, it is important to remember that male and female skeletons are much more alike than different. The most disparate-looking individuals still have more commonalities than differences, physically speaking.
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https://www.toptenreviews.com/the-difference-between-male-and-female-skeletons
 
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