Do you believe in Adam and Eve or Evolution?

[Lui]

Not:nope: - micro is adaptation which no one disputes. Macro is above the species level and unproven.

What’s your actual belief in a nutshell? Is it that the Earth is 6000 years old, all humans are the descendants of Adam and Eve and God created the Earth in 144 hours and that ALL stories of the Old Testament are to be taken literally?
(sorry, but going through the whole IDvolution website is a bit time consuming.)

What is your theological background since you probably think that the priests I talked to don’t know what they’re talking about?

 

[buffalo]

What’s your actual belief in a nutshell? Is it that the Earth is 6000 years old, all humans are the descendants of Adam and Eve and God created the Earth in 144 hours and that ALL stories of the Old Testament are to be taken literally?
(sorry, but going through the whole IDvolution website is a bit time consuming.)

What is your theological background since you probably think that the priests I talked to don’t know what they’re talking about?

Time consuming? The truth is not worth the time?

All humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. The are our fist parents and is Catholic dogma.

I read Scripture as a Catholic should - what the author intended to convey and what the Church has continually taught and understood. How about you?

I am sure the Priests you are talking to are well versed in evolution, they are just out of touch with science findings of the last 10 years.

 

[Lui]

Time consuming? The truth is not worth the time?

Does the Catholic Church say that the claims made on that website are the truth or is this your personal opinion?

All humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. The are our fist parents and is Catholic dogma.

I read Scripture as a Catholic should - what the author intended to convey and what the Church has continually taught and understood. How about you?

Catholics are not obligated to believe that the story of “first parents” named Adam and
Eve as told in the book of Genesis is historical fact. They are, however, called to believe the religious truths which the Genesis story proclaims, namely:

1. That God played the ultimate role in all creation.
2. That God played the ultimate role in the creation of the human being.
3. That God created the soul which gives the human person an inherent dignity and the capacity for a relationship of love with God.

Contemporary Catholic biblical scholars tell us that the stories found in the book of Genesis are not meant to be a source of historical or scientific fact as we understand those terms today. Rather, they are meant to convey religious truth. In the words of one Catholic spiritual leader, “the purpose of the Bible is not to tell us how the heavens go, but how to go to heaven.”

am sure the Priests you are talking to are well versed in evolution, they are just out of touch with science findings of the last 10 years.

That’s your personal opinion. What is your theological background since you seem to know more about Catholic teachings than Catholic priests do? You should maybe also stop judging who is the better Catholic, you or me. Just a thought because I get the impression you do that but that is just my subjective opinion.

The difference between me and creationists is that I don’t think I’m the better Catholic just because I happen to believe in evolution. Creationism is not the teaching of the Catholic Church though. The Church does not teach that the world was created in only six literal 24-hour days.

 

[buffalo]

Does the Catholic Church say that the claims made on that website are the truth or is this your personal opinion?

Catholics are not obligated to believe that the story of “first parents” named Adam and
Eve as told in the book of Genesis is historical fact. They are, however, called to believe the religious truths which the Genesis story proclaims, namely:

1. That God played the ultimate role in all creation.
2. That God played the ultimate role in the creation of the human being.
3. That God created the soul which gives the human person an inherent dignity and the capacity for a relationship of love with God.

Contemporary Catholic biblical scholars tell us that the stories found in the book of Genesis are not meant to be a source of historical or scientific fact as we understand those terms today. Rather, they are meant to convey religious truth. In the words of one Catholic spiritual leader, “the purpose of the Bible is not to tell us how the heavens go, but how to go to heaven.”

That’s your personal opinion. What is your theological background since you seem to know more about Catholic teachings than Catholic priests do? You should maybe also stop judging who is the better Catholic, you or me. Just a thought because I get the impression you do that but that is just my subjective opinion.

The difference between me and creationists is that I don’t think I’m the better Catholic just because I happen to believe in evolution. Creationism is not the teaching of the Catholic Church though. The Church does not teach that the world was created in only six literal 24-hour days.

A Catholic priest should know these:

1. 
   *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
   *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
   *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
   *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
   *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
   *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
   *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
   *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
   *] Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
   *] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
   *] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
   *] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

 

[buffalo]

And he should know this:

** What Does The Catholic Church **Teach about Origins?
(pdf version)

• God created everything “in its whole substance” from nothing (ex nihilo) in the beginning.
  (Lateran IV; Vatican Council I)
• Genesis does not contain purified myths. (Pontifical Biblical Commission 1909[1])
• Genesis contains real history—it gives an account of things that really happened. (Pius XII)
• Adam and Eve were real human beings—the first parents of all mankind. (Pius XII)
• Polygenism (many “first parents”) contradicts Scripture and Tradition and is condemned. (Pius XII; 1994 Catechism, 360, footnote 226: Tobit 8:6—the “one ancestor” referred to in this Catechism could only be Adam.)
• The “beginning” of the world included the creation of all things, the creation of Adam and Eve and the Fall (Jesus Christ Mark 10:6]; Pope Innocent III; Blessed Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus).
• The body of Eve was specially created from a portion of Adam’s body (Leo XIII). She could not have originated via evolution.
• Various senses are employed in the Bible, but the literal obvious sense must be believed unless reason dictates or necessity requires (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus).
• Adam and Eve were created upon an earthly paradise and would not have known death if they had remained obedient (Pius XII).
• After their disobedience of God, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden. But the Second Person of the Trinity would subsequently pay the ransom for fallen man (Nicene Creed).
• Original Sin is a flawed condition inherited from Adam and Eve (Council of Trent).
• The Universe suffers in travail ever since the sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve. (Romans 8, Vatican Council I).
• We must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously on a matter of faith or morals (Council of Trent and Vatican Council I).
• All the Fathers who wrote on the subject believed that the Creation days were no longer than 24-hour-days. (Consensus of the Fathers of the Church)
• The work of Creation was finished by the close of Day Six, and nothing completely new has since been created—except for each human rational soul at conception (Vatican Council I)
• St. Peter and Christ Himself in the New Testament confirmed the global Flood of Noah. It covered all the then high mountains and destroyed all land dwelling creatures except eight human beings and all kinds of non-human creatures aboard the Ark (Unam Sanctam, 1302)
• The historical existence of Noah’s Ark is regarded as most important in typology, as central to Redemption. (1566 Catechism of the Council of Trent)
• Evolution must not be taught as fact, but instead the pros and cons of evolution must be taught.
  (Pius XII, Humani Generis)
• Investigation into human “evolution” was allowed in 1950, but Pope Pius XII feared that an acceptance of evolutionism might adversely affect doctrinal beliefs.

 

[Lui]

A Catholic priest should know these:

Consider the source of what you posted: The Kolbe Center, an unofficial Catholic Creationist Organization.

My priest was right. It’s hard to argue with creationists. Let’s just leave it at that. You believe whatever you want to believe and I will believe in evolution..

 

[Moro_Rock]

I am Christian and a science teacher who teaches evolution in a Catholic school. I do tell the students that evolution is a theory and science is changing constantly as we learn and discover new things. There is a lot of evidence pointing towards evolution, and I see no problem with God creating Earth in His own time frame. How long is one day outside of “time”? God is more complex than we could ever imagine, how easy it is to think that He creates in a way that we can search and explore to find out more and more of His incredible creation.

It is true that rejection of six literal days doesn’t cancel one’s salvation. But we need to see the big picture. The Word of God was once widely respected and taken seriously. But once the door of compromise is unlocked, once Christians concede that we shouldn’t interpret the Bible as written in Genesis why should the world take heed of God’s Word in any area ? Because some Christians have told the world that we can use man’s interpretation of the world, such as billions of years, to reinterpret the Bible, this Book is seen as an outdated, scientifically incorrect holy book not intended to be believed as written.
As each subsequent generation has pushed this door of compromise open further and further, they are increasingly not accepting the morality or salvation of the Bible either, After all if the history in Genesis is not correct how can one be sure the rest is correct ? Jesus said " If I have told you earthly things, and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things?"( John 3:12)

 

[buffalo]

Consider the source of what you posted: The Kolbe Center, an unofficial Catholic Creationist Organization.

My priest was right. It’s hard to argue with creationists. Let’s just leave it at that. You believe whatever you want to believe and I will believe in evolution..

f

So just ignore the Church references. OK,

 

[Lui]

f

So just ignore the Church references. OK,

No, I prefer to ignore creationism just like the Catholic Church and the Pope does.

“Church teaching holds that Roman Catholicism and evolutionary theory are not necessarily at odds: A Christian can, for example, accept the theory of evolution to help explain developments, but is taught to believe that God, not random chance, is the origin of the world. The Vatican, however, warns against creationism, or the overly literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation.”

 

[buffalo]

No, I prefer to ignore creationism just like the Catholic Church and the Pope does.

Excuse me - all Catholics are creationists.

 

[Lui]

Excuse me - all Catholics are creationists.

I repeat:
“Church teaching holds that Roman Catholicism and evolutionary theory are not necessarily at odds: A Christian can, for example, accept the theory of evolution to help explain developments, but is taught to believe that God, not random chance, is the origin of the world. The Vatican, however, warns against creationism, or the overly literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation.”

Discuss it with the Pope or the Vatican. I’m just quoting.

 

[buffalo]

I repeat:
“Church teaching holds that Roman Catholicism and evolutionary theory are not necessarily at odds: A Christian can, for example, accept the theory of evolution to help explain developments, but is taught to believe that God, not random chance, is the origin of the world. The Vatican, however, warns against creationism, or the overly literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation.”

Discuss it with the Pope or the Vatican. I’m just quoting.

Polygenism is.

 

[Azurestone]

I repeat:
“Church teaching holds that Roman Catholicism and evolutionary theory are not necessarily at odds: A Christian can, for example, accept the theory of evolution to help explain developments, but is taught to believe that God, not random chance, is the origin of the world. The Vatican, however, warns against creationism, or the overly literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation.”

Discuss it with the Pope or the Vatican. I’m just quoting.

Modern Secular Evolution is fundamentally at odds with the Church, though the Genesis story is not to be taken absolutely literal. In the same light, modern Creationism is also at odds with Tradition.

However, one also shouldn’t deny the Truths. It is not literal, but it is not also completely abstract. Take for example a canon from the Council of Carthage (419).

Canon CIX.* (Greek cxij. continued.)
That Adam was not created by God subject to death.

That whosoever says that Adam, the first man, was created mortal, so that whether he had sinned or not, he would have died in body—that is, he would have gone forth of the body, not because his sin merited this, but by natural necessity, let him be anathema.

We shouldnt deny the story, but we shouldn’t try to reconcile the poetic narrative with modern science either.

 

[Lui]

Modern Secular Evolution is fundamentally at odds with the Church, though the Genesis story is not to be taken absolutely literal. In the same light, modern Creationism is also at odds with Tradition.

The quote I posted wasn’t from me, it was from the Vatican. I believe in evolution but from the Catholic Church point of view: God is the creator.

However, one also shouldn’t deny the Truths. It is not literal, but it is not also completely abstract. Take for example a canon from the Council of Carthage (419).

I think many stories are not to be taken literally but as parables to teach us. Jesus always used parables for his teachings, like the story of the lost son(prodigal son). Each parable of Jesus has a certain message. That’s how I look at many stories of the Old Testament.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Some Catholics believe in a Literal Creation story, and that Adam and Eve really existed while other Catholics believe that the Genesis Creation story is not to be taken literal and that Evolution is true. Though some people (like me ) are still trying to decide. What is your matter on the issue

The should not even be compared. Belief in Adam and Eve, literal or symbolic, is a matter of faith.

Whether or not evolution is true does not affect Catholicism.

However, anyone who believes Evolution is a matter of fact is deluding themselves. For these people the Theory of Evolution is really just Pantheism masquerading as Hard Science. They are making a leap of faith to believe something unproven.

There are so many holes in the theory of evolution. Even when I was an atheist that rejected the Bible I thought the theory of evolution was no where near proven. It can never be proven for the simple fact that the information we need is prehistoric. In other words, prior to recorded history. No matter how many facts are gathered we will never have all of the facts. If one does not have all the facts then one cannot really come to a logical conclusion.

 

[Azurestone]

The quote I posted wasn’t from me, it was from the Vatican. I believe in evolution but from the Catholic Church point of view: God is the creator.

I realize that. I just wanted to take the opportunity to insist on a distinction.

QUOTE=Lui;8094572]
I think many stories are not to be taken literally but as parables to teach us. Jesus always used parables for his teachings, like the story of the lost son(prodigal son). Each parable of Jesus has a certain message. That’s how I look at many stories of the Old Testament.

How did the Early Church Father’s look at it?

The majority would teach Genesis as a poetic narrative. That is, the events are real, but the narrative is poetic in nature to express theology, not an historical document.

The Fathers and Saints of the Church profess the one Faith. Their guidance, not our guess work, preference, or forum debate should dictate our faith.

 

[Rahn]

No, I prefer to ignore creationism just like the Catholic Church and the Pope does.

“Church teaching holds that Roman Catholicism and evolutionary theory are not necessarily at odds: A Christian can, for example, accept the theory of evolution to help explain developments, but is taught to believe that God, not random chance, is the origin of the world. The Vatican, however, warns against creationism, or the overly literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation.”

If the Bible is the word of God, then how can just some of it be true and not all of it? Put anouther way, if it is the word of God, how can you not literally believe the story of creation?

Who, exactly, is it at the Vatican that is stating this position?

 

[Azurestone]

If the Bible is the word of God, then how can just some of it be true and not all of it? Put anouther way, if it is the word of God, how can you not literally believe the story of creation?

Who, exactly, is it at the Vatican that is stating this position?

Because not ALL of it is meant to be understood literal. Use of metaphor and poetic expression often are much more capable in expressing theology.

 

[Rahn]

Because not ALL of it is meant to be understood literal. Use of metaphor and poetic expression often are much more capable in expressing theology.

Then, what part of the story of Adam and Eve is meant to be taken literally, and what part is poetic license?

 

[Rahn]

I think many stories are not to be taken literally but as parables to teach us. Jesus always used parables for his teachings, like the story of the lost son(prodigal son). Each parable of Jesus has a certain message. That’s how I look at many stories of the Old Testament.

Jesus did teach using parables, but they are always labeled as such. To use that logic to dismiss other portions of the Bible is erroneous.