Do you believe in evolution?

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If evolution is fact and it is also fact that the process is unguided then consider the following:

Humans are a result of unguided nature which does not have intent. The institutions of humans (i.e. religion) are also the result of this process. Humans and their institutions do not have intent because it would imply nature has intent as humans and their institutions are the product of nature and are nature itself.

So why do we keep having this conversation? Would it not be more rational and productive to wait a few million years for nature to evolve life into a form that has an understanding of evolution built in?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Good luck out there.
 
Dan123 said:
But in this instance and with prophets in general we’re not talking about the commands God put inside us, we’re talking about “The Lord said to Moses” type stuff. Can we agree that among the many tens of thousands of Midianite women, some were pregnant? Probably a range of pregnancies in fact, some perhaps days from delivery and others perhaps not yet realizing they were pregnant.

If so can we agree if the Israelite armies killed every woman who’d had relations with a man, the pregnant women would be among them?
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It depends, if you are inclined toward seeing God as being evil then yes, part of the women were pregnant but there’s no mention in that part about God ordering killing of pregnant women and unborn babies.
Dan123 said:
Did God foresee this outcome?
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I don’t think the term foresee describes God’s attributes. Foreseeing is more suitability to one who experiences passage of time and comes to the knowledge of things to come, God understands is befitting.
 
Dan123 said:
But in this instance and with prophets in general we’re not talking about the commands God put inside us, we’re talking about “The Lord said to Moses” type stuff.
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This is how it appears to us but because God is timeless, it is the ‘word’ from beginning to end. It appears to us sometimes ‘as if’ in the prophets and sometimes in judges and finally the son.
 
Noose001 said:
It depends, if you are inclined toward seeing God as being evil then yes, part of the women were pregnant but there’s no mention in that part about God ordering killing of pregnant women and unborn babies.
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But he DID know that was a consequence of his orders right? This is one of those confusing disconnects and it feels like the semantic arguments are cropping up. If God has perfect understanding then ordering the slaying of all non-virgin women is ordering all the consequences that emerge from that order. Anything less and you’re diminishing the meaning of omniscience.
 
Dan123 said:
But he DID know that was a consequence of his orders right? This is one of those confusing disconnects and it feels like the semantic arguments are cropping up. If God has perfect understanding then ordering the slaying of all non-virgin women is ordering all the consequences that emerge from that order. Anything less and you’re diminishing the meaning of omniscience.
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What is your point? God’s word (not words) is God from the beginning to the end. Anything happening in between especially to do with evil is a consequence of man’s disobedience to God (word).

Example; it is said in the beginning, God created the perfect world but because disobedience, sin and death entered the world. And we see God curse man, it is just the same word turned judgement as a consequence of man’s disobedience. This same word follows throughout time as judgement but it would appear to man in different forms of judgement. This same word appears to man as justification and salvation in the story of Jesus.

so you don’t have to look at it as God ordering Moses to kill.

Peter taught this:
2 Pet 3: 5 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through whichb the world of that time perished in the flood. 7 And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

What Peter is saying is that God (word) created the universe but because of the fall, the same word turned into judgement in the hearts men explained as the story of the flood, and it is the same word (God) that salvation and judgement even now is happening.
 
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It is not a semantic dodge, i’ve quoted 2 Pet 3:5 and i don’t think he was trying to dodge when he taught that. I said the complexity comes from creation, how God creates and the consequences of the fall. The material universe is one such consequence.

God’s word is a command of perfection, our disobedience causes imperfection and thus judgement. What happened with the Medianites was the same word turned judgement and it would appear in the form of Moses being commanded in time but it is actually the consequences of man’s disobedience.

They are not just stories. Why do you think they are just stories? They might be allegorical but i believe they happened, at least some.
 
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sealabeag said:
Pope Francis supporting or not supporting evolution is irrelevant really. If he puts forth a compelling case for it or against theologically of course we should listen to that, but he’s not a scientist and this is simply his own opinion.
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The irony is that many lay people refuse to accept this standard for themselves. Thus making them more Catholic than the Pope, I guess.
 
That would be true for other literature but not the bible. Why would fictional stories mention real places and real practices and real timelines?
 
BlueKumul said:
So who is more trustworthy? Benedict XVI or Francis? I liked Benedict more, so I’m sticking with his support for intelligent design.
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Intelligent design does not discredit evolution. The intelligence of the design is the ability to evolve.
 
So you don’t believe there was a Moses, a David, a Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, Jericho, Jerusalem, Asyria etc?
 
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He has perfect and complete knowledge. If God chooses door 1 2 or 3 on a gameshow, he knows what’s behind all the doors to use a silly metaphor. So if he decides to intervene in Earthly affairs, if that intervention results in sin that wouldn’t have occurred had he not done so, his plan created sin.
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It’s a good point, but eventually we arrive at a problem overall.
Our task would be “imagine a situation where there is no past and no future”. Now, what is it like to make a decision?
The place where there is a sequence of time is here on earth. But time, in God’s world, is really a simulation. There is not even cause and effect. God has created a place, this earth, where creatures pass through this thing called “time”. It’s not for God, but for us. We have a chance to show love and fidelity by choosing rightly.
The other boundary condition, part of the definition of it all is, that God is perfectly good, and also that God is perfectly Just. That means, whatever happens on earth is a perfect opportunity within this simulated situation.
The earth is a “saint-making machine” as Scott Hahn so wisely put it.
The goals on earth are not for progress, improvement, welfare, preservation - but to have creatures making moral choices, improving themselves, and making themselves worthy of heaven.
Probably the best example is also the first in Christianity. He came to Earth as Jesus to teach, be put to death and be resurrected to heaven. Was Judas’ betrayal sin? Were those who wrongfully put him to death sinning? Because that was not only part of the plan but required for the plan to work. If not for him coming to earth those sins would not have occured. Sin was a necessary part of God’s plan for salvation.
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Judas was free to sin or not and to repent or not. That’s all that matters. But to now understand God’s perspective, we only have a human mind that is trapped by the sequences of time. How is it possible for us to model God’s perspective? It’s like a goldfish trying to explain why humans feed them at certain times. Not the best analogy but something like that. 🙂
Now you can argue the good of salvation outweighs the sins it created, but that ‘ends justify the means’ is the kind of stuff usually outright rejected in morality conversations.
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The sins are not directly created. They are permitted, by necessity. Without the possibility to sin, there cannot be freedom. But nobody is forced to sin either.
 
Do you think someone decided to prophesy on behalf of a fictional character called Moses and Jesus decided to fulfil them and then reference them?
 
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Noose001 said:
Aha, i now get it, killing women (ova) and killing men (sperm) = killing of potential babies and thus God ordered the killing of unborn babies.
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No, you do not get it. God ordered the killing of all the married women – those who were not virgins. Some of those married women would have been pregnant. Killing a pregnant woman results in the death of her unborn child(ren).

Why did your God order the death of innocent unborn children?

Have you counted up how many people God drowned in the Flood? Some of the women drowned would have been pregnant too.

As I said, that is not a God I choose to worship.
Noose001 said:
Num 31 does not talk of pregnant women.
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No, it talks of non-virgin women (“had relations with a man”). Some of those women would have been pregnant. There was no contraception back then.
 
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The difference between God of the bible and other existing and non existent gods has been given by God Himself in Isa 43: 8-13.

He reveals/prophesy (says what will happen before hand), He does (does it amongst the people so that they witness) and proclaims (reminds them when He is with them that He had revealed it through the prophets and now has made sure it comes to pass). He is not some foreign being speaking from space. big difference.
 
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Not a claim. He reveals and gives timelines of His coming on earth, comes and does and then reminds people that he had said that. Which other faith do you have in mind?
 
What are some examples and how do they compare with the Bible (parting of the Red Sea, Ressurection of Jesus, miracles of Jesus’ apostles?)
 
Indeed. See the Moabite Stone for a similar text. Chemosh, the god of the Moabites, was angry with his people and allowed the Israelites under YHWH to defeat them. Later Chemosh forgave his people and led them to defeat the Israelites in turn. See 2 Kings 3:4-8 for the other side’s version.
 
Bill_B_NY said:
From a Catholic perspective, we would feel suffering for the needs of others, for hardships that others endure, for poverty and illness. Failing to share that suffering with others would be seen as a moral defect.
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“Love others as you love yourself.” – Bhadramayakaravyakarana sutra, 91.
 
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