Do you believe people are born gay?

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pzona said:
Many people believe being gay is a sin simply because it is in the Bible. However, one must consider the idea that the Bible only says this because it was written by men (not God) from a primitive culture which did not understand homosexuality.

Homosexuality is not only present in humans. The behavior that characterizes it has been observed in many species of animals (which suggests it is a positive evolutionary trait, which is another matter entirely), so are these animals sinning?

I base my ideas on this topic not on science, but on personal experience. Sexuality is developed. It isn’t an intrinsic property and it certainly isn’t a decided behavior. Sexuality is developed through experience, environment, personality, etc. If God said that this is a sin, then God is unreasonable, and I have to disagree with Him.
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Hi Pzona,

I disagree, homosexuality WAS understood and the culture wasn’t all that primitive all things considered. Who can say how prevalent it was without actually being there? Even today we don’t have solid numbers just that worn old saw of 10 percent. As I stated in a previous note, the number of not-strictly-straight people is far greater than the number of strictly gay people. That number is also unknown and maybe unknowable. Just as all males have a touch or more of the feminine and women a touch or more of the masculine, every straight and gay has a touch of the other. Maybe a small touch, but a touch nun the less. As to the ratio back in biblical days, I will hazard a guess that it was not wildly different than what it is today.

We agree the Bible, along with every other Sacred Scripture in existence, was written by humans. I believe those authors were highly attuned to Spirit and wrote of paths little imagined in their day. Those spiritual works are still being created this day as evidenced by such authors as Neil Donald Walsh and Ram Dass. Why Christians have a problem with gayness is beyond my ability to grok!

Experience! That is a key concept to discernment and something we fail to use to our advantage. Over and over we reject our experience of something. Astute thought, Pzona!

Blessed be, Dousias
 
teachccd said:
Animals do not have eternal souls and were not given the gift of reason that humans have. Animals are incapable of sinning since their thought process cannot know God to the extent that we do nor can they reject God. Yes, animals eat their young but I find it hard to justify a human doing that with your argument. …teachccd
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Hi TeachCCD,

Animals don’t have souls? How do you know that for sure? Wait, the Bible told you, okay if you say so… I believe all creatures were/are created by God, all creatures are immortal just like us, have no beginning and no ending and are thus eternal. Do you really base your opinion soul/no soul on cognition? Really! Consider the fetus… Cognitive or no? A downs syndrome baby or a brain damaged adult… No soul? Hmmm.

Blessed be, Dousias
 
CarlaOLS said:
Dousias - You asked if the Church was spending too much time in the bedroom or something to that extent. I hope you don’t belive the Church has no business in teaching morality or that its concern as the Body of Christ somehow stops at the bedroom door. Say it isn’t so and I will believe you, for every Christian should be glad of admonishment from the Church as she cares for our immortal souls. 🙂
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Hay Carla,

I believe the Church should teach morality as well as tolerance, peace, love and joy.
But it still seems the Church spends way too much time concerned about what adults are doing with each other in their bedrooms.

Blessed be, Dousias
 
Nope. I am a Catholic and I do not believe that people are born gay. I believe that upbringing and the environment in which they were raised in has a lot to do with whether or not people turn gay. I also believe that gay people choose to engage in homosexual activity.
 
Homosexuality is a sexual proclivity no different than S&M or smelling shoes. It is a deviation from the norm, which is heterosexuality. Is a person born with one of those ball gag things in their mouth or something more ridiculous? Of course not. This is a learned behavior. Homosexuals have no more right to consideration as a minority than do people who find Renee Zellwiger attractive.
 
JRPO said:
Dousias
Don’t be a bone head! Anyone knows what “serving the flesh” means.

The point being made here is Its OK to be gay. Its not OK to indulge in sins of the flesh.

and governments should stay out of these issues.

And spell Pantheistic right. The “e” comes before the “i”
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Hi Jrpo,

“Serving the flesh” sounds like a restaurant term! I’m sorry, I don’t do Bible speak so good these days!

So it’s okay to be gay. But it’s only okay to be gay if you are celibate. Jrpo, do you really think that is true? Deep in your heart do you think that? Or are you just repeating “common wisdom?”

I agree governments should stay out of moralizing too.

Blessed be, Dousias

Thanks for the heads-up on my spielling.
 
Abira said:
…there seems to be a real hate surrounding this issue that I do not see in for example… unmarried straight sex… it saddens me, and it is true that I have to remind myself that some peoples comments do not represent the whole. But it does distance me somewhat from interacting with religion as I am. I find this is impossible and so I am not engaging at all at this time.
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Hi Abira,

It saddens me too. The general opinion is one of judgment and intolerance. Wait! Not all the users out here are that way, I’m not and there are others who have spokeen eloquently and from their heart. Religions such as Catholicism are supposed to be connecting the dots of life together into wholeness with the cosmos but seem to have gotten stuck in a morass of dogma they don’t seem to be able to dig their way out of. Yet. I have hopes they will step into the twenty-first century soon. We shall see…

In the meantime I invite you to share your thoughts and expand more on how you see the issues getting resolved.

Blessed be, Dousias
 
JRPO said:
This comment by Dousias is an insult to human intelligence.

On this earth we have always had to abide by rules. Rules of government like having to pay your taxes we dont decide what we pay the government does.

We have to abide by the law we don’t decide for ourselves what laws we will follow otherwise we finish up in Jail.

we drive on the road we have to abide by the rules of the road we dont make up the rules of the road as we go along.

as children our parents make up rules and if we misbehave we are in trouble children don’t make up rules for themselves.

We simply cannot be left to our own devices and we all know how human we can be . Moral choices are not for the individual to decide, what an unbearable world it would be if we could all have our own say on whats moral and whats not moral.

Dousias! , that comment is complete and utter stupidity.
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Hay Jrpo,

Zing! Boy do I feel small now…

I will quote The Spiritual leader of Agape Church in Culver City, California, Reverend Doctor Michael Beckwith: “Your Law, your Life!” We make thousands of individual decisions every day of our lives, some are small things, some have huge impact and all are our own personal decisions. If we have ethics and sound morals, are decent and trustworthy, are just plain good humans we can be assured our decisions, our “Law,” will be correct and just. No one need spend time second guessing our paths. Our “Law is our Life!” And so it is…

Have you ever considered how many of the thousands of civil and criminal laws and regulations that have no relevance in our everyday lives? We wouldn’t break them even if they didn’t exist. And many laws that we are aware of we routinely ignore and don’t even blink when we do so. Ever exceeded a speed limit? Ever drove with a light that didn’t work? Ever lie or cheat? Everyone sets their own law my friend, even if they think they don’t!

Blessed be, Dousias
 
edwest2 said:
There is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. Second. People are doing whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes around the world right now. But don’t try to change society by indoctrinating little kids. And don’t ask for ‘we make it up as we go along’ laws either. A functioning civilization is civilized. Anarchy is not a good idea.

Peace,
Ed
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Hi Ed,

(Ignoring the “indoctrination” fear…)

Conformity in society can be like a poison. Non-conformity can be what makes a society grow and be challenged.

Blessed be, Dousias
 
Dousias said:
Hi Ed,

(Ignoring the “indoctrination” fear…)

Conformity in society can be like a poison. Non-conformity can be what makes a society grow and be challenged.

Blessed be, Dousias
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From my experience and this is not medical advice by no means but, Non-conformity generally goes with mental illness.

You didn’t suffer some kind of child abuse did you.
 
JRPO said:
This comment by Dousias is an insult to human intelligence.

On this earth we have always had to abide by rules. Rules of government like having to pay your taxes we dont decide what we pay the government does.

We have to abide by the law we don’t decide for ourselves what laws we will follow otherwise we finish up in Jail.

we drive on the road we have to abide by the rules of the road we dont make up the rules of the road as we go along.

as children our parents make up rules and if we misbehave we are in trouble children don’t make up rules for themselves.

We simply cannot be left to our own devices and we all know how human we can be . Moral choices are not for the individual to decide, what an unbearable world it would be if
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Furthermore… Excuse me for stating what
should be obvious, but it is our responsibility to act in moral and
ethical ways and action is always preceded by thought and decision.
Many times that selection process is difficult because the choices may
include the lesser of two evils; give the beggar two bucks thinking he
will buy food or not giving thinking he will buy drugs with it? Or give
anyway thinking he might steal from someone else to get his drugs? Give
this concept some thought and you’ll agree we make moral and ethical
decisions on the fly all the time and any particular action may or may
not be decided the same way as others may make. So you may say that
example is just a small thing and doesn’t really matter. Not true at
all! How about whether to go murder people on orders of a governmental
body? Is that also a small thing? But people told to go to war do that
all the time. That is a grave moral and ethical decision that has great
consequences. So do we follow 100 percent some master list of
moralities or do we in fact make these decisions ourselves? Think it
through Jrpo.

Blessed be, Dousias
 
**On CONSCIENCE **and its correct formation from the Catechism.

THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and **guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.**55

…

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. *Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. *
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. **It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. **
1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61

👍
 
Do I believe that people’s genetic makeup can at least partially determine what temptations they will be most prone to? Of course, why wouldn’t I?
 
JRPO said:
From my experience and this is not medical advice by no means but, Non-conformity generally goes with mental illness.

You didn’t suffer some kind of child abuse did you.
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Peace Jrpo,

We need to understand two things; we desire that individuals in our society be of like minds and that is why we bond together to form society in the first place. But as society grows it fails to satisfy all needs for all people. Thus those people will get those needs satisfied outside the mainstream. If enough people go outside the norm then a modified society is formed or even a new one with “updated” ideals. All societies suffer from, call it rot, in one form or another.

Non-conformity is the safety valve that keeps societies healthy. Granted, sometimes their actions are damaging in the short rum but in the big picture it keeps us from stagnating and withering away. I hate to use the secular/religious dyad, but why not!
A religion is created or discovered then it rolls along for awhile gaining members and forming an intentional community then a society. Then people get dissatisfied because their needs change, then a new religion gets formed or discovered. The old one withers away and it’s impact withers away too. Today the term secular is being used to describe the opposite of religion and I believe a better term would be something like New Spirituality. The belief in Spirit or God is not disappearing, just changing dimensions.

As to your connection between child abuse and having a cogent opinion I am at a loss, sir.

Blessed be, Dousias
 
Karmartia said:
Homosexuality is a sexual proclivity no different than S&M or smelling shoes. It is a deviation from the norm, which is heterosexuality. Is a person born with one of those ball gag things in their mouth or something more ridiculous? Of course not. This is a learned behavior. Homosexuals have no more right to consideration as a minority than do people who find Renee Zellwiger attractive.
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Hi Karmartia,

Homosexuality is only a deviation from the norm in some people’s eyes, certainly not in all people’s eyes. The majority is rather ambivalent to the issue. Again, it’s an issue of what people do behind closed doors is between those people alone. That includes what straight people do behind their doors too. Here is a thought to consider: Let’s play with some numbers… If gays are ten percent and straights 90 percent of the populous, and say twenty percent of everybody are into fetishes in one form or another, then there are 4.3 million kinky gays and 39 million kinky straights! If kink is wrong then what group has the “problem?”

Again stating my view…

Being gay is not a sickness or wrong and the acts they do are basically no different than what straight couples do. Biblical admonitions against homosexuals are numerically minor compared to admonitions against heterosexuals. What do we draw from that biblical factoid? Maybe back then it wasn’t all that big a deal after all? For most people it isn’t a big deal today and that is the way it should be.

What I see, and many others see also, is intolerance masked by biblical dogma. In my eyes that is no different than racism or bigotry. Minorities, and being gay is a minority, don’t deserved to be treated as second or third class citizens. Certainly not by people who say they are growing spiritually every day and being better humans.

We Pantheistic peoples believe that there is good doctrine in all sacred scripture and theologies. We also see bad thought too and are smart and mature enough to discern the difference.

Please think about what people are teaching. Are you being taught to be intolerant?
Lastly, what would God do? As Meister Eckhart O.P. said back in the fourteenth century, “Let God, be God, as you.” Are you becoming more God-like or less?

Something to think about…

Blessed be, Dousias
 
This is the wrong question to be asking. It doesn’t matter whether one is “born gay” or not. The question is whether or not the act of homosexuality is morally permissable, and the obvious answer to that is, no, it is not. This is one of the products of modern society, secular and religious: feelings somehow have a say in whether or not something is right or wrong. The propensity of the child molester or a pyromaniac to do what he or she does, the honest difficulty such a person might have in refraining from committing those acts, has absolutely nothing to do with the objective morality of the act. It might affect the individual’s culpability for a particular act–that’s obviously a point of charity–but not the nature of the act itself.
 
Dousias said:
Peace Jrpo,

We need to understand two things; we desire that individuals in our society be of like minds and that is why we bond together to form society in the first place. But as society grows it fails to satisfy all needs for all people. Thus those people will get those needs satisfied outside the mainstream. If enough people go outside the norm then a modified society is formed or even a new one with “updated” ideals. All societies suffer from, call it rot, in one form or another.

Non-conformity is the safety valve that keeps societies healthy. Granted, sometimes their actions are damaging in the short rum but in the big picture it keeps us from stagnating and withering away. I hate to use the secular/religious dyad, but why not!
A religion is created or discovered then it rolls along for awhile gaining members and forming an intentional community then a society. Then people get dissatisfied because their needs change, then a new religion gets formed or discovered. The old one withers away and it’s impact withers away too. Today the term secular is being used to describe the opposite of religion and I believe a better term would be something like New Spirituality. The belief in Spirit or God is not disappearing, just changing dimensions.

As to your connection between child abuse and having a cogent opinion I am at a loss, sir.

Blessed be, Dousias
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WHAT???

Your not considering running for Congress are you.

And I was only thinking that maybe something went wrong in your life and you have to take it out on the world.

you go on with so much S!#* Maybe congress is were you belong.

and I’ve got a funny feeling your going to have the last word.
 
I do believe that some people are born with the opposite sex traits. I watched a little boy grow up and all the while everything he did seemed feminin. He is now a gay adult. I still love him.

Now I need some advise from you too.

My daughter is 29, the mother of 3 and now is with a female who is 23 and looks like a boy with tattoos and piercings everywhere. My daughter and kids attend church with me (catholic) and I am a big part of their lives. This girl and my daughter have been together 1 year so far. She wants to take her to church on christmas. I told her to be prepared about what people think. she does not care what they think but also does not want her kids to suffer. The girl is good hearted, but young and grew up poor.

May I have some feed back from you?
 
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