Do you believe that practicing ABC is morally permissible? Answer if your Catholic only please.

[Little_One0307]

morality does not depend on statistics …

I never said they did. And this was not the point of the poll as well. I just wanted to see what percentage actually fell into both camps in response to the orginal thread I quoted.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

You didn’t make the poll anonymous, so you’re not going to get a true count

I really could not becuase of the possibility of Non-catholics voting here. That way I could keep track of what was going on better.

Also note, you’re asking what we believe…not what the Church teaches. Also note, that for a practicing Catholic, it doesn’t really matter what we think…we still have to follow Church teachings. That said…

Yes, but if you read it was posted in reply to the other thread. I know this as I have stated time and time again it is what the Church teaches that matters. The other thread made a claim that 95% of Catholics believed it was okay, I was out to see what would happen.

Thanks so much for your reply. It was very informative.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Poll should be private. Can you edit it?

I could not edit it. And I orginally thougtht to keep it private, however, I could not check to see if Non-Catholics were voting in here or not. This is why I made it public.

 

[Little_One0307]

And you rephrase the question…ABC is a misnomer…it should be Contraception.

I used ABC, becuase technically NFP is a form of contraception, it’s just natural.

Now before you slam me for this, I am reading up on this and am pretty new to NFP so my understanding may be a little lacking. But if you got any good sources out there that can explain it succintly I would be most appreciative of it. Please post them in the thread itself if you have the time.

I am reading Theology of the Body right now.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

reuters.com/article/2011/04/14/us-most-catholic-women-us-use-birth-cont-idUSTRE73D4SZ20110414
~sums it up

guttmacher.org/pubs/Religion-and-Contraceptive-Use.pdf

Here is a similar poll:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=572226
~It is anonymous.

The poll you quoted is open to non-catholics and it was not suitable for this purpose as I was not interested in whether someone was using ABC or not. I had thought to go off that poll orginally, but becuase of the scope is a bit different I created this.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Let’s do like (some) Protestants do – take a vote to decide whether a certain behavior is a sin.

This is the method used by the Anglicans/Episcopalians to bring the Christian world for the first time the approval of contraception (1930), abortion on demand, active homosexual clergy, and women priestesses.

Certain Presbyterians recently voted to approve homosexual clergy in their churches.

Everybody in favor of extra-marital sex say YES. That settles it.

Every use of a contraceptive – except for non-contraceptive medical reasons – is a mortal sin. Sin is not a matter to be voted upon. Roma locuta est, causa finita est. Rome has spoken, the case is closed.

The truth is still true even if nobody believes it; error remains error even if everyone believes it.

Jim Dandy

Jim,

This was not my intention in posting this thread and poll.

God bless.

 

[Bookcat]

I used ABC, becuase technically NFP is a form of contraception, it’s just natural.

Now before you slam me for this, I am reading up on this and am pretty new to NFP so my understanding may be a little lacking. But if you got any good sources out there that can explain it succintly I would be most appreciative of it. Please post them in the thread itself if you have the time.

I am reading Theology of the Body right now.

God bless.

No slam ( I try not to do slams unless I am occasionally at Dennys)

Yes we would one to use the word “contraception” because NFP is NOT contraception…and the artificial part of things has nothing to do with it

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

 

[samiam1611]

The poll you quoted is open to non-catholics and it was not suitable for this purpose as I was not interested in whether someone was using ABC or not. I had thought to go off that poll orginally, but becuase of the scope is a bit different I created this.

God bless.

Oh yes, I understand. Just wanted thought people interested in this thread might also be interested in that one too. .

 

[thistle]

Hiya CAF.

This is in reference to this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8096397#post8096397

It was stated in that thread recently that 95% of Catholics believe that ABC is morally okay to practice. Specifically posts #548 and post#549 refuted this.

To that remark I stated.

 I

So if you are willing to take some time out, please vote in this poll and let’s see what 95% of this board things. I was interested to find out the actual percentage of voters.

I left the poll to where others could see who was voting, as I am interested only in bona fied Catholic votes here. And I could talley up the results.

God bless you

Any Catholic who believes ABC is morally permissible is rejecting a Church teaching and commits heresy and puts themselves in a state of mortal sin.
ABC is not a subject Catholics can easily claim to be vincibly ignorant about. It is a widely discussed subject. Even if they do not fully understand the reasons behind the Church teaching they still have to accept it and make an effort to understand.

 

[LoyalViews]

reuters.com/article/2011/04/14/us-most-catholic-women-us-use-birth-cont-idUSTRE73D4SZ20110414
~sums it up

guttmacher.org/pubs/Religion-and-Contraceptive-Use.pdf

Here is a similar poll:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=572226
~It is anonymous.

Truly shocking. It’s 98%! Absolutely horrendous!

 

[LaSainte]

Any Catholic who believes ABC is morally permissible is rejecting a Church teaching and commits heresy and puts themselves in a state of mortal sin.
ABC is not a subject Catholics can easily claim to be vincibly ignorant about. It is a widely discussed subject. Even if they do not fully understand the reasons behind the Church teaching they still have to accept it and make an effort to understand.

Just to be clear, it is not heresy to believe that contraception is morally permissible. The teaching is not dogmatic and does not require full divine and Catholic faith, but, I believe, only that we as Catholics submit to the teaching.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ringil]

I disagree with the Church’s teaching on ABC but I follow it out of obedience.

 

[supertubos]

I never said they did. And this was not the point of the poll as well. I just wanted to see what percentage actually fell into both camps in response to the orginal thread I quoted.

God bless.

Sorry. My Mistake… God Bless…

 

[thistle]

Just to be clear, it is not heresy to believe that contraception is morally permissible. The teaching is not dogmatic and does not require full divine and Catholic faith, but, I believe, only that we as Catholics submit to the teaching.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Where is it stated in Church documents that ABC is not an infallible teaching but rather a non-infallible teaching?

 

[joclucsylv]

Hiya CAF.

This is in reference to this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8096397#post8096397

It was stated in that thread recently that 95% of Catholics believe that ABC is morally okay to practice. Specifically posts #548 and post#549 refuted this.

To that remark I stated.

 I

So if you are willing to take some time out, please vote in this poll and let’s see what 95% of this board things. I was interested to find out the actual percentage of voters.

I left the poll to where others could see who was voting, as I am interested only in bona fied Catholic votes here. And I could talley up the results.

God bless you

Catholic Answers does not represent the average American Catholic family, so it isn’t an accurate poll.

 

[Little_One0307]

Catholic Answers does not represent the average American Catholic family, so it isn’t an accurate poll.

Technically neither does American Catholic families represent all of Catholics either, so that would not be accurate either.

I had posted something that answered this, but I can’t seem to find the post anywhere. Ideally the ideal would be to get a list of all the Catholics in the world and poll them. But as that is impossible to do, and no particular group represents Church Universal, I thought to poll here at CAF, becuase it is a pool that is accessible.

I am not going to make because CAF voters voted this way, it holds true across the boards in the Catholic Church. That was not the intent of the poll. I just thought I had Catholics here, here’s a pool that is manageable, and so let’s go with it.

So the only conclusion that I can say is out of those who voted here on this poll at CAF such and such a percentage believes…

So this is why this thread was started.

God bless.

 

[Bookcat]

Not agreeing that a poll be done…

But here by the way is from a document from the Vatican:

“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life [Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, emphasis added].”

 

[rotlex]

I voted yes, I believe it to be morally permissible. The poll should include a few options to help decipher one’s thoughts however. In my case, and yes, I consider myself a devout Catholic, as most of my friends and family think of me that way as well, I would need to include these caveats:

• The couple must obviously be married. Poll should state that.
• The couple must have been open to life in the past, or, of course, currently have children, and adding more would cause true financial or other hardship
• The “ABC” method must be non-abortive. i.e, barrier or withdrawl.

I won’t thread jack here, and I have posted about this before, but this is the one, single solitary issue I disagree 110% with the Church on. It is also something that is pushing me toward possible Orthodoxy. Not that contraception\ABC is allowed there either, however, I do fully understand it is something that can be discussed with a spiritual father, and have the couples situation deeply looked at. Friends of ours have done this, and frankly, it makes a LOT of sense to me. (But then again, the Orthodox views on a number of issues make more sense to me than the Latin Rite\Catholic views. Of course, that is a completely different thread).

 

[LaSainte]

Not agreeing that a poll be done…

But here by the way is from a document from the Vatican:

“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life [Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, emphasis added].”

Bookcat, this is a guide for confessions and not proof that the teaching is infallible.

Either way, the teaching rises only to the level of “sententia communia”. It is not dogma and does not require divine and Catholic faith, only submission of the will and intellect. Therefore, one who does not believe it is not guilty of heresy.

See here:
ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/TRIGINFL.HTM
ANY dogma is an INFALLIBLE doctrine, divinely & formally revealed by God as a necessary truth for salvation. EXTRAORDINARY Magisterium is an EX CATHEDRA pronouncement of the Roman Pontiff (Immaculate Conception by Pope Pius IX) or a DE FIDE statement of an Ecumenical Council (Justification by the Council of Trent). ORDINARY Magisterium is the perennial teaching of the Pope and the Bishops in union with him around the world. To capriciously say that ONLY EXTRAORDINARY MAGISTERIAL dogmas are infallible is FALSE and heretical. Lumen Gentium #25, Humani Generis #21, both solemnly teach on the supreme teaching authority of the ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM.
Some Catholics wrongly believe that ONLY “ex cathedra” Papal Statements are infallible. This would limit infallible dogma to two, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Obviously, only 2 infallible dogmas in 2,000 years sounds very sparse. Some theologians incorrectly proliferate a notion that ONLY the Extraordinary Magisterium is infallible. Even Raymond Brown has abandoned this notion. Ergo, propositions like the one you mention, that the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of the B.V.M. is NOT infallible, are ridiculous. If in doubt, the BEST resource is Denziger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum. Next, is Ludwig Ott’s monumental work, “The Fundamentals of Dogma.” There, one can find the theological distinctions made between divinely revealed truths (DE FIDE) and those which are only theologically certain.

DE FIDE is the highest level of theological/doctrinal truth. They are INFALLIBLE statements by their very nature, like the Holy Trinity, The Real Presence, etc.

Next, are VERITATES CATHOLICAE (catholic truths) like the existence of God which can be known through reason alone.

Finally, there are four types of THEOLOGICAL OPINIONS:

1. SENTENTIA FIDEI PROXIMA (proximate to the Faith) like the Trinity can be known only through Revelation.
2. SENTENTIA CERTA (theologically certain) like Monogenism, i.e., that the human race came from one set of parents.
3. SENTENTIA COMMUNIA (common teaching) like the Church’s prohibition & proscription of artificial contraception.
4. SENTENTIA PROBABILIS (probable teaching) like the premise that the Virgin Mary died before being Assumed into Heaven.

According to Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis & Vatican II in Lumen Gentium #25, even non-infallible teachings are to receive the submission of mind and will of the faithful.While not requiring the ASSENT OF FAITH, they CANNOT be disputed nor rejected publicly and the benefit of the doubt must be given to the one possessing the fullness of teaching authority. The heterodox concept of a dual magisteria, i.e., the theologians, is not based on scriptural nor traditional grounds. Some have gone as far as to propose a triple magisteria, the body of believers. While it is true that as a whole, the body of believers is infallible in that SENSUS FIDEI is that the Church as the Mystical Body cannot be in error on matters of faith and morals, the TEACHING AUTHORITY (Magisterium) resides solely with the Roman Pontiff and the College of Bishops in union with him.

This is a difficult enough teaching for many Catholics. Please let’s not muddy the waters and further alienate people who struggle with this teaching by imposing requirements that even the Church does not give us.

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, this is a guide for confessions and not proof that the teaching is infallible.

From the Holy See…directed to all Priests…to guide them in hearing the confession of their penitents…

My understanding is that it is infallible via the Ordinary Magisterium. And heck it has been part of the teaching of the Church since the early days…

twas what I was taught for my degree in Catholic Theology…

Now are there perhaps those who argue that it is not? I imagine so.

Jimmy Akin makes a few comments about such:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/11/contraception_i.html