Do you believe that practicing ABC is morally permissible? Answer if your Catholic only please.

[Bookcat]

Well unfortunately, all we know is what they DID say about marital sex, which is that it is for procreation ONLY and that any sex ouside of these parameters is at least a venial sin (Augustine was VERY specific about this, as was Gregory). Speculating about time machines and the like is fruitless and completely unnecessary, since their writings speak for themselves.

I said I am not getting into all of this…shall I repost my comments again explaining this???

(For that matter we know that certain Fathers were mistaken about various issues …not everything was clear at all times to everyone…this is why we have the Church…one reason we have the See of Peter).

What is very very clear is that they …would do as I said…they would say "I never heard of this NFP…what does Peter say? What is the teaching of the Church?

 

[Bookcat]

Isn’t spamming against forum rules? This is definitely spamming.

Oh come on…

Spaming?

I am not spamming…

But again…(shall I repeat) I will add a line or so if I think of it…or underline something different…and in fact there were changes that I made at times …

 

[Corki]

Yes, it is possible that it falls under the bolded portion above…although there is some debate on the matter that it only requires submission of the will and intellect, which is what I personally believe. Either way, this does NOT require divine and Catholic faith and as such, not believing in the Church’s position on contraception CANNOT constitute heresy.

To give religious assent without heart-felt belief is not heresy. To assert that the practice of ABC is morally permissible in spite of definitive teaching by the Magesterium is heresy.

 

[Bookcat]

To give religious assent without heart-felt belief is not heresy. To assert that the practice of ABC is morally permissible in spite of definitive teaching by the Magesterium is heresy.

Actually …(setting aside the matter here in question here of contraception or any particular doctrine and just giving the general aspects)…to be more precise…

Heresy is the *obstinate * and post-baptismal denial or doubt…

All sorts people can be confused or mistaken about some teaching and even assert the opposite of it…and yet not be guilty per se of heresy…

 

[Bookcat]

Interesting Pastoral letter of a Bishop in terms of Contraception:

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/FLAVIN.HTM

 

[Corki]

Actually …(setting aside the matter here in question here of contraception or any particular doctrine and just giving the general aspects)…to be more precise…

Heresy is the *obstinate * and post-baptismal denial or doubt…

All sorts people can be confused or mistaken about some teaching and even assert the opposite of it…and yet not be guilty per se of heresy…

ok, To repeatedly and continually assert that the practice of ABC is morally permissible in spite of knowledge of the teaching by the Magesterium is heresy.

 

[LaSainte]

To give religious assent without heart-felt belief is not heresy. To assert that the practice of ABC is morally permissible in spite of definitive teaching by the Magesterium is heresy.

NO IT IS NOT. As you can see from the CANON LAW that I quoted, it must be something that we are required to believe “WITH DIVINE AND CATHOLIC FAITH”, the obstinate denial of which constitutes heresy. We are not required to believe in this teaching with divine and Catholic faith, and therefore, dissent from this teaching, while serious, is NOT nor can it ever be heresy!

"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;*

I am so tired of people throwing this word around here on CAF!

Read canon law. Read the definition of heresy. It is a black and white issue.

 

[Bookcat]

We are not required to believe in this teaching with divine and Catholic faith, and therefore, dissent from this teaching, while serious, is NOT nor can it ever be heresy!
.

Such would be an incorrect statement.

 

[Corki]

NO IT IS NOT. As you can see from the CANON LAW that I quoted, it must be something that we are required to believe “WITH DIVINE AND CATHOLIC FAITH”, the obstinate denial of which constitutes heresy. We are not required to believe in this teaching with divine and Catholic faith, and therefore, dissent from this teaching, while serious, is NOT nor can it ever be heresy!

"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;*

I am so tired of people throwing this word around here on CAF!

YES, IT IS (see I can do all caps too )

As you can see from Lumen Gentium (a DOGMATIC document from Vatican II)

In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.

Contraception is a matter of morals, taught by the Magisterium in the name of Christ.

Read canon law. Read the definition of heresy. It is a black and white issue.

Canon Law must be read in light of the other documents of the Church. It is a black and white issue. It is a heresy to deny a faith or morals teaching that has been taught definitively by the Church, even if it has not been declared ex cathedra.

 

[Veritatis3]

YES, IT IS (see I can do all caps too )

As you can see from Lumen Gentium (a DOGMATIC document from Vatican II)

Contraception is a matter of morals, taught by the Magisterium in the name of Christ.

Canon Law must be read in light of the other documents of the Church. It is a black and white issue. It is a heresy to deny a faith or morals teaching that has been taught definitively by the Church, even if it has not been declared ex cathedra.

Bingo.

 

[LaSainte]

YES, IT IS (see I can do all caps too )

As you can see from Lumen Gentium (a DOGMATIC document from Vatican II)

Contraception is a matter of morals, taught by the Magisterium in the name of Christ.

Canon Law must be read in light of the other documents of the Church. It is a black and white issue. It is a heresy to deny a faith or morals teaching that has been taught definitively by the Church, even if it has not been declared ex cathedra.

This forum has officially lost all credibility for me.

Your citation from LG actually backs up my point. “religious assent” and “religious submission of the mind and will” are NOT the same thing as “divine and Catholic faith”. Not by a long shot. The Church makes these distinctions for very important reasons.

The things that we are required to believe with “divine and Catholic faith” are not that numerous. A great summary of these things are found in, but not limited to, those statements in the Nicene Creed. For example, “we believe in one God” “we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God”, “he was crucified, died and was buried”, “on the third day He rose again”. THESE are thing I must believe to the very core of my soul, or as the Church puts it, with “divine and Catholic faith”. If I am obstinate in not believing these things, I am a heretic.
"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

As you can see, ONLY the obstinate denial of the truth of matters such as those referenced above can rise to the level of heresy at all. Not contraception, not the rule about eating meat on Fridays.

Things such as the teaching on contraception require, as you so nicely pointed out from LG, “religious submission of the will and intellect”. The threshold is set much lower. In other words, I am not required to believe to the very core of my being that contraception is wrong. I am only required to submit to this teaching in practice, and to admit to myself that even if I do not believe in this teaching, the Church MAY still be right about it and I may be wrong or misunderstanding the teaching. That is all. Now, if I do not follow this teaching in practice, it is (according to the Church) a grave sin, but it is NOT , nor will it ever be “heresy”.

Let’s have an example:

If I do not believe in my heart and soul (a.k.a. with “divine and Catholic faith”) that Jesus Christ is the son of God, can I receive communion? Of course not. Even though I have not “committed” any grave sin, just not believing that Jesus is actually the son of God places me outside the Church, for such a belief is a heresy.

Now, if I do not believe in my heart and soul (with “divine and Catholic faith”) that contraception is wrong, but I do my best to follow the teaching in practice (I do not use contraception) and I am willing to allow that the Church may be right and that I may be misunderstanding the teaching (a.k.a. I give the Church a religious submission of will and intellect on the matter) can I receive communion? YES! I am not a heretic even though I do not believe this teaching with “divine and Catholic faith” because quite simply, I am not required to. While practicing contraception and shouting from the rooftops that the Church teaching on contraception is a load of baloney may pit me in a state of mortal sin and unable to receive communion as a result of said sin (according to the Church), it does NOT make me a “heretic” because the level of faith required for this teaching is simply not there.

Will someone who knows about this PLEASE back me up on this? It is the absolute truth.

Do not take my word for this! Ask any knowledgeable priest or canon lawyer or bishop or even BENEDICT himself.

 

[Corki]

Let’s have an example:

If I do not believe in my heart and soul (a.k.a. with “divine and Catholic faith”) that Jesus Christ is the son of God, can I receive communion? Of course not. Even though I have not “committed” any grave sin, just not believing that Jesus is actually the son of God places me outside the Church, for such a belief is a heresy.

Now, if I do not believe in my heart and soul (with “divine and Catholic faith”) that contraception is wrong, but I do my best to follow the teaching in practice (I do not use contraception) and I am willing to allow that the Church may be right and that I may be misunderstanding the teaching (a.k.a. I give the Church a religious submission of will and intellect on the matter) can I receive communion? YES! I am not a heretic even though I do not believe this teaching with “divine and Catholic faith” because quite simply, I am not required to.

’

Looking at your example. Yes, the first would be heresy. The second is not heresy. This isn’t because contraception is not a matter that must be believed but because if you are giving religious assent you are not obstinately denying the teaching.

While practicing contraception and shouting from the rooftops that the Church teaching on contraception is a load of baloney may pit me in a state of mortal sin (according to the Church), it does NOT make me a heretic because the level of faith required for this teaching is simply not there.

This one is clearly heresy because you are not only dissenting you are denying not only the truth of the teaching but also the Church’s authority to teach it.

 

[mcrow]

I voted yes, I believe it to be morally permissible. The poll should include a few options to help decipher one’s thoughts however. In my case, and yes, I consider myself a devout Catholic, as most of my friends and family think of me that way as well, I would need to include these caveats:

• The couple must obviously be married. Poll should state that.
• The couple must have been open to life in the past, or, of course, currently have children, and adding more would cause true financial or other hardship
• The “ABC” method must be non-abortive. i.e, barrier or withdrawl.

I won’t thread jack here, and I have posted about this before, but this is the one, single solitary issue I disagree 110% with the Church on. It is also something that is pushing me toward possible Orthodoxy. Not that contraception\ABC is allowed there either, however, I do fully understand it is something that can be discussed with a spiritual father, and have the couples situation deeply looked at. Friends of ours have done this, and frankly, it makes a LOT of sense to me. (But then again, the Orthodox views on a number of issues make more sense to me than the Latin Rite\Catholic views. Of course, that is a completely different thread).

Agreed.

Yes, Agreed.

I believe that any non-abortive BC is morally OK when used by a married couple so long as they are open to having children in the future or already have children. If you are not killing an already started pregnacy, I don’t see the issue. NFP accomplishes the same thing and is nearly as good at avouding pregnancy as condoms are. Heck, withdrawl is probably more open to life than NFP is.

I know it’s against church teaching but I think they may have over applied the Lord’s intent on this one.

Note, this does not mean I use ABC. I follow the church teaching wether I agree with it or not.

 

[Bookcat]

Anyone read this yet?

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/FLAVIN.HTM

 

[LaSainte]

’

Looking at your example. Yes, the first would be heresy. The second is not heresy. This isn’t because contraception is not a matter that must be believed but because if you are giving religious assent you are not obstinately denying the teaching.

This one is clearly heresy because you are not only dissenting you are denying not only the truth of the teaching but also the Church’s authority to teach it.

“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”

Notice the level to which a teaching must rise to be “eligible” for the term “heresy”. It absolutely MUST be one of our core Catholic beliefs, such as the divinity of Jesus, or he belief in the Trinity. It must be a truth which is to be believed with “divine and Catholic faith” Obstinately denying one of these fundamental truths makes one a heretic and subject to all of the canonical penalties that this entails.

Now I can go around all day practicing contraception and saying that the teaching is **** and yes, I may be in a state of mortal sin, but I am no heretic. Even if I do not give “religious submission of the intellect and will” to this teaching as required by the Church, the teaching itself does not rise to the appropriate level. I may place myself out of communion with the Church, but I am not a heretic.

Heretic is a legal canonical term and the punishment for it is excommunication, which can ONLY be lifted by a bishop. It is not something thrown around lightly. It is reserved only for those who adamantly deny our CORE Catholic beliefs, such as those contained in the Ncene Creed. Contraception is not among these.

 

[Bookcat]

“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”

Notice the level to which a teaching must rise to be “eligible” for the term “heresy”. It absolutely MUST be one of our core Catholic beliefs, such as the divinity of Jesus, or he belief in the Trinity. It must be a truth which is to be believed with “divine and Catholic faith” Obstinately denying one of these fundamental truths makes one a heretic and subject to all of the canonical penalties that this entails.

Now I can go around all day practicing contraception and saying that the teaching is **** and yes, I may be in a state of mortal sin, but I am no heretic. Even if I do not give “religious submission of the intellect and will” to this teaching as required by the Church, the teaching itself does not rise to the appropriate level. I may place myself out of communion with the Church, but I am not a heretic.

Heretic is a legal canonical term and the punishment for it is excommunication, which can ONLY be lifted by a bishop. It is not something thrown around lightly. It is reserved only for those who adamantly deny our CORE Catholic beliefs, such as those contained in the Ncene Creed. Contraception is not among these.

You are asserting that it does not fit such (some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith) and he is asserting that it does.

By the way those things to which one must give the “obedience of Faith” it is incorrect to say are “not numerous”.

Regarding heretics…one must of course be “obstinent” in ones denial or doubt…and such as is understood by the Church…to be a heretic…such is very key for many may have misunderstandings and difficulties…and even sin…but are not per se heretics…

As to hairy-ticks…

such are certainly a real nuisance…and need to be dealt with swiftly to avoid lyme disease…

 

[LaSainte]

You are asserting that it does not fit such (some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith) and he is asserting that it does.

By the way those things to which one must give the “obedience of Faith” it is incorrect to say are “not numerous”.

Regarding heretics…one must of course be “obstinent” in ones denial or doubt…and such as is understood by the Church…to be a heretic…such is very key for many may have misunderstandings and difficulties…and even sin…but are not per se heretics…

As to hairy-ticks…

such are certainly a real nuisance…and need to be dealt with swiftly to avoid lyme disease…

Actually, he already stated in a previous post that the teaching on contraception is a teaching that requires only “religious submission of the will and intellect” or at the most must be"firmly held".

What he is asserting is that not giving ANY teaching of the magisterium the level of assent that the Church requires (be it “divine and Catholic faith” , a belief “to be firmly held” or “religious submission of the will and intellect”) is tantamount to heresy, which it is not. Only those teachings which require “divine and Catholic faith” can incur the penalty of heresy if denied.

 

[Bookcat]

Actually, he already stated in a previous post that the teaching on contraception is a teaching that requires only “religious submission of the will and intellect” or at the most must be"firmly held".

What he is asserting is that not giving ANY teaching of the magisterium the level of assent that the Church requires (be it “divine and Catholic faith” , a belief “to be firmly held” or “religious submission of the will and intellect”) is tantamount to heresy, which it is not. Only those teachings which require “divine and Catholic faith” can incur the penalty of heresy if denied.

I did not read such…but I do not read them all

I am sure he will clarify.

 

[Corki]

Actually, he already stated in a previous post that the teaching on contraception is a teaching that requires only “religious submission of the will and intellect” or at the most must be"firmly held".

What he is asserting is that not giving ANY teaching of the magisterium the level of assent that the Church requires (be it “divine and Catholic faith” , a belief “to be firmly held” or “religious submission of the will and intellect”) is tantamount to heresy, which it is not. Only those teachings which require “divine and Catholic faith” can incur the penalty of heresy if denied.

The distinction being, “those teachings which require “divine and Catholic faith” can incur the penalty of heresy if denied.”

Question: What are “those teachings”?
**
Answer**: the teachings of the Church regarding faith and morals taught through the authority of the magisterim.

The teaching on contraception is one of these.

 

[Corki]

Who are y’all referring to as “he”?

If it’s me – I’m a girl!