Do you believe the Kingdom of God is within you?

[grannymh]

We say we are the body of Christ, that Jesus suffered as we suffer, but, Jesus rose from the dead, had a glorified body, and ascended into Heaven, something we believe could happen to us after death.
I don’t know, maybe I separate Jesus from humanity in that I don’t understand how he can suffer if he is at the right hand of the father in Heaven.
Yet I believe Christ is within us, guiding, protecting, loving us…the strong one who helps the weak.

God is three Persons in one Divine nature. Jesus Christ is one Divine Person with two natures, Divine and the assumed human nature.

We need to remember that Adam is a true human who shattered the friendship relationship between humanity and Divinity. Because Adam is human, he could not repair a relationship established by the Divine Creator.

John 3: 16-17.

Assuming human nature, Jesus fully loves us because He literally knows our pain and our happiness. Jesus continues to be with us in the Holy Eucharist.

John 14: 18

 

[grannymh]

I don’t think I said that much different from what you say above, eg. God’s will be done in our own lives. When we are doing God’s will, this has affects on not just our own lives but of those people we commune with and the whole of creation. Post 97.

There is much to look into regarding the Kingdom within, spiritual renewal, etc.

Thanks all for your thoughts and concerns so far in this thread.

You are correct and appreciated. Thank you.

Back in post 71, I mentioned the Mystical Body of Christ. It seems to me that there is a strong connection between the Mystical Body of Christ and “Thy will be done” and the Catholic Church, not a rebuilding of Christianity. So far, I do not have the words. I have the old-fashioned writer’s block.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

We say we are the body of Christ, that Jesus suffered as we suffer, but, Jesus rose from the dead, had a glorified body, and ascended into Heaven, something we believe could happen to us after death.
I don’t know, maybe I separate Jesus from humanity in that I don’t understand how he can suffer if he is at the right hand of the father in Heaven.
Yet I believe Christ is within us, guiding, protecting, loving us…the strong one who helps the weak.

Maybe it comes down to how literally we interpret, “whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.”

 

[simpleas]

Maybe it comes down to how literally we interpret, “whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.”

I remember this well since childhood.

I suppose what I’m thinking of is how can Jesus suffer while he is in heaven.

We are all part of the one body and so each affects the other through good deeds and bad deeds.

Isn’t Jesus in his Kingdom, awaiting us, but still here on earth in the Eucharist.
I know we’ll say God can be anywhere and everywhere as he wishes, so again the Kingdom must be both.

 

[simpleas]

You are correct and appreciated. Thank you.

Back in post 71, I mentioned the Mystical Body of Christ. It seems to me that there is a strong connection between the Mystical Body of Christ and “Thy will be done” and the Catholic Church, not a rebuilding of Christianity. So far, I do not have the words. I have the old-fashioned writer’s block.

Thanks.

No problem, I don’t think my posts make sense most of the time, but am glad posters like yourself take time to reply.

 

[Galnextdoor]

THE FIFTH MANSIONS

CHAPTER I.

BEGINS TO TREAT OF THE UNION OF THE SOUL WITH GOD IN PRAYER. HOW TO BE SURE THAT WE ARE NOT DECEIVED IN THIS MATTER.

1. Let us now speak of the sign which proves the prayer of union to have been genuine. As you have seen, God then deprives the soul of all its senses that He may the better imprint in it true wisdom: it neither sees, hears, nor understands anything while this state lasts, which is never more than a very brief time; 12 it appears to the soul to be much shorter than it really is. God visits the soul in a manner which prevents its doubting, on returning to itself, that it dwelt in Him and that He was within it, and so firmly is it convinced of this truth that, although years may pass before this favour recurs, the soul can never forget it nor doubt the fact, 13 setting aside the effects left by this prayer, to which I will refer later on. The conviction felt by the soul is the main point.

sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic13.htm

She is speaking metaphorically. In the footnote at the bottom of the page, there is an explanation that it means God’s transformational love in us.

The problem is that are people who take that idea of “union” literally, and end up using self-hypnosis to put themselves in a state of euphoria and then call that a “union” with God. Sometimes they just say the Lords name over and over, while emptying their minds out of thoughts. While in this state, they are supposed to not “judge” any thought that comes to them. They are just supposed to experience it and enjoy it and move on. If our minds were absent of concupiscence, this would not be a problem. However, since the Fall of man, our minds have been tainted by concupiscence. We have thoughts of envy, lust, pride, etc. that are not wholesome, and they are not thoughts we should entertain. This is the type of “prayer” that the author of the “Divine Dance…” is speaking of when he talks about contemplative prayer.
There are some people who have begun looking at God almost like He is their private possession that can be experienced at their beck and call. St. Mother Teresa had years and years where she never felt that joy in the soul that a traditional Catholic Contemplative experiences at times. It wasn’t that she didn’t pray correctly, or didn’t use the right techniques. God just chose not to come to her in that way. Mother Angelica also experienced this at times, and she it called this spiritual dryness. I believed St. John of the Cross called it the Dark Night of the Soul.

I can be obnoxious at times as probably everyone on here can attest to. But, God has blessed me at times when I am contemplating scripture or meditating on the wounds of Christ with an intense joy of heart. I feel that my heart is so full of love of God and neighbor that there could never be room in my heart again for anger, jealousy,etc. and then someone cuts me off at a stoplight. This is what the church has taught is contemplative prayer. This joy we experience as we contemplate God and His love for us. There is a focus in traditional Catholic contemplative prayer and the focus is God.

In the form of “contemplative prayer” that the author of the “Cosmic Christ” is promoting, the focus is on the experience and what you feel. People who have been to seminars put on by his followers come out with the idea that this type of prayer can replace communion, because they are forming a union with God. I don’t know if this is something that is actually said verbatim to them, or it’s an idea that was planted through something that was ambiguously explained. They feel they no longer have to go to church because Christ is everywhere equally and by using this new “contemplative prayer” technique they can have a union with God that is equal to communion.

Does it ring true to you that if you use a simple mind technique, you could be a mystic like some of the saints? You can become part of God?

To me, it sounds like the snake whispering in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

This is the type of “prayer” that the author of the “Divine Dance…” is speaking of when he talks about contemplative prayer.

In the form of “contemplative prayer” that the author of the “Cosmic Christ” is promoting, the focus is on the experience and what you feel.

Does it ring true to you that if you use a simple mind technique, you could be a mystic like some of the saints? You can become part of God?

Have you read any of the" Divine Dance"? That is not what I am getting at all. I have not read “The Coming of the Cosmic Christ”. At least I dont remember if I had. It came out so long ago. Forgive me but it sounds to me like you read these authors with hypercritical eye looking for things to pick at. The focus of prayer is not on what one feels even if it is as joyful as yours, nor to “entertain” thoughts of lust and pride. All sorts of thoughts will be there and so one practices awareness of the presence of God. There are different ways to do that including scripture and the wounds of Christ. Whatever helps each of us in our uniqueness focus is on God’s presence at a particular time. And believe it or not, if you are a disciple of Jesus, he dwells within you and the Holy Spirit works within you and The Father lives within you.

I get it though, your concern is their panentheism, that all creation is a manifestation and expression of God, that we participate in God’s being and therefore are part of God. That does not bother me much. It seems to me that all creation has to at least come from God’s will, God’s intention, God’s energy. It is mystery. How else can God be omnipresent unless God pervades everything including us? Can you explain that?

What separates us from God is us.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

But what do I know?

131 Lord, my heart is not arrogant,
nor do I look haughty.
I do not aspire to great things,
nor concern myself with things beyond my ability.
2 Instead, I have composed and quieted myself
like a weaned child with its mother;
I am like a weaned child.
3 Place your hope in the Lord, Israel,
both now and forever.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Have you read any of the" Divine Dance"? That is not what I am getting at all. I have not read “The Coming of the Cosmic Christ”. At least I dont remember if I had. It came out so long ago. Forgive me but it sounds to me like you read these authors with hypercritical eye looking for things to pick at. The focus of prayer is not on what one feels even if it is as joyful as yours, nor to “entertain” thoughts of lust and pride. All sorts of thoughts will be there and so one practices awareness of the presence of God. There are different ways to do that including scripture and the wounds of Christ. Whatever helps each of us in our uniqueness focus is on God’s presence at a particular time. And believe it or not, if you are a disciple of Jesus, he dwells within you and the Holy Spirit works within you and The Father lives within you.

I get it though, your concern is their panentheism, that all creation is a manifestation and expression of God, that we participate in God’s being and therefore are part of God. That does not bother me much. It seems to me that all creation has to at least come from God’s will, God’s intention, God’s energy. It is mystery. How else can God be omnipresent unless God pervades everything including us? Can you explain that?

What separates us from God is us.

“The Coming of the Cosmic Christ” is a book by Matthew Fox, a defrocked priest. “The Cosmic Christ” is written by the same author as “The Divine Dance…” I am glad that we agree that prayer should not be about lust, pride, or envy. I believe in God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth. I don’t believe that Christ was in the big bang or that he is at our beck and call to give us some kind of personal euphoric experience.

The type of prayer practiced by the author of “The Divine Dance” is what I explained in the previous post. I have heard him talk about mindful contemplative prayer, and have described it as he describes it. He is very against judging right from wrong, which he calls dualistic thinking. He is pro LGTB, and he co-celebrated a lesbian wedding.

Is it hypercritical to point out when people, who claim to be Catholic and who have a large following, lead people astray?

This author has been reprimanded by the Church and has promised to bring his teachings in line with the Church’s teachings. He has not done so.

Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; if he refuses to listen to even the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector."

Here he is spouting the heresy of nestorianism, that Jesus was two separate beings. He was the physical Christ and the spiritual Christ.

youtube.com/watch?v=4LYQQO5uFtA

I expect that this link will be quickly broken.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thank you. I dont have time to listen to the entire 30 minute video now but what I heard in the first few minutes was that the Cosmic Christ incarnated to become Jesus the Christ. Not two separate beings. But I will listen more tomorrow.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

He is not teaching Nestorianism. He is saying Christ existed before the incarnation of Jesus. But also was Jesus. Big Bang Jesus? He was certainly present as he was The Word and the Word was in the beginning.

Non Dualistic thinking is not about doing away with discernment of good and evil. But it is about recognizing that in this world things are not always black and white. He does. Not speak to meditation in this video but I think the idea comes more from St. John of the Cross than Franciscan tradition and that is to pay no attention to thought good or bad, pleasant or unpleasant, joyful or sad. Contemplative prayer is not about how one feels.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by Galnextdoor

youtube.com/watch?v=4LYQQO5uFtA

This was the first time I had heard about the cosmic Christ. It shocked me at first because it was nothing I’d heard expressed that way, yet I’d heard many times that Jesus was God, the father, Lord, creator of Mankind and creation etc.

Being reminded that Christ isn’t Jesus’ last name was another eye opener for me.
Jesus became the Christ.

John 1 explains the word became flesh.

Seems clear that Jesus the Christ was with/in the ‘big bang’ although it is difficult to comprehend.

 

[grannymh]

Here is the difference between Catholic contemplative prayer and CAC Meditation contemplative prayer.

In Catholic contemplative prayer, we share in God’s life.

In CAC Meditation contemplative prayer, God shares in our life.

Yes, there is a real difference. Arrow going up. Arrow going down.

 

[Galnextdoor]

This was the first time I had heard about the cosmic Christ. It shocked me at first because it was nothing I’d heard expressed that way, yet I’d heard many times that Jesus was God, the father, Lord, creator of Mankind and creation etc.

Being reminded that Christ isn’t Jesus’ last name was another eye opener for me.
Jesus became the Christ.

John 1 explains the word became flesh.

Seems clear that Jesus the Christ was with/in the ‘big bang’ although it is difficult to comprehend.

I guess I shouldn’t have posted that video because it has led to even more confusion. Jesus was not within the big bang. Jesus was present when the earth was created by His Father as was the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not in the rocks and the trees and grass, which is where this man goes with his line of thinking. That is pantheism. You can’t break Jesus up into two separate Beings. It is a heresy condemned by the Church in 431 A.D. called nestorianism. It created great confusion in the Church and the line of thinking that it caused, led even more heretical thinking.
The man in this video is fond of saying Christ came twice. Christ means messiah. The messiah did not come twice. He came once to fulfill the prophesies of the old testament, and open the gates of heaven. In the bible, when he died, the dead came out of their tombs. Matthew 27; 52-53 He came and died once for all our sins. This author/speaker says that Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross. That just being here was enough. That is so contrary to what the church teaches. Jesus came to show us how to live. Death is part of life. His resurrection shows that we will have another life after this one. (Maccabees is not included in the Tanakh or Hebrew bible of the Jews. They didn’t necessarily believe in a life after this one.)

The speaker believes that Jesus came simply to meld all the religions into one religion. So the speaker borrows parts of other religious thinking and melds them with Catholic teaching. He searches through old heresies, gives them a new twist, and says that they were part of the early Church. He forgets to mention that they were condemned by the early Church.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Here is the difference between Catholic contemplative prayer and CAC Meditation contemplative prayer.

In Catholic contemplative prayer, we share in God’s life.

In CAC Meditation contemplative prayer, God shares in our life.

Yes, there is a real difference. Arrow going up. Arrow going down.

I don’t know, Granny, your Catholic view sounds like it is all us doing all the work and the CAC version more orthodox in that God does the action reaching down for us.

The truth of the matter is that it is not an either/or situation. Meditation (and all life) is **both **we share in God’s life **and **God shares in our life.

 

[simpleas]

I guess I shouldn’t have posted that video because it has led to even more confusion. Jesus was not within the big bang. Jesus was present when the earth was created by His Father as was the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not in the rocks and the trees and grass, which is where this man goes with his line of thinking. That is pantheism. You can’t break Jesus up into two separate Beings. It is a heresy condemned by the Church in 431 A.D. called nestorianism. It created great confusion in the Church and the line of thinking that it caused, led even more heretical thinking.
The man in this video is fond of saying Christ came twice. Christ means messiah. The messiah did not come twice. He came once to fulfill the prophesies of the old testament, and open the gates of heaven. In the bible, when he died, the dead came out of their tombs. Matthew 27; 52-53 He came and died once for all our sins. This author/speaker says that Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross. That just being here was enough. That is so contrary to what the church teaches. Jesus came to show us how to live. Death is part of life. His resurrection shows that we will have another life after this one. (Maccabees is not included in the Tanakh or Hebrew bible of the Jews. They didn’t necessarily believe in a life after this one.)

The speaker believes that Jesus came simply to meld all the religions into one religion. So the speaker borrows parts of other religious thinking and melds them with Catholic teaching. He searches through old heresies, gives them a new twist, and says that they were part of the early Church. He forgets to mention that they were condemned by the early Church.

Thanks.

I did say Christ was with / in, because I was unsure how to word what I was saying.

 

[Galnextdoor]

He is not teaching Nestorianism. He is saying Christ existed before the incarnation of Jesus. But also was Jesus. Big Bang Jesus? He was certainly present as he was The Word and the Word was in the beginning.

Non Dualistic thinking is not about doing away with discernment of good and evil. But it is about recognizing that in this world things are not always black and white. He does. Not speak to meditation in this video but I think the idea comes more from St. John of the Cross than Franciscan tradition and that is to pay no attention to thought good or bad, pleasant or unpleasant, joyful or sad. Contemplative prayer is not about how one feels.

Nestorianism is a heresy that Jesus was two Beings, a physical being (which this author/speaker calls the Historical Jesus) and a Spiritual Being. This line of thinking created great confusion in the Church and was condemned as a heresy in 431. He says that Christ came twice. Christ is the Jewish/Greek word for Messiah. The messiah did not come twice. Jesus was present when the world was created, but He did not come to us in the rocks, trees, planets, etc. That is pantheism. He is not the Creator, which this speaker claims. I know you know this because you say it every Sunday. “I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.”

This speaker takes Catholic terminology and applies his own meaning to it. He asserts that dualistic thinking is saying that something is morally black or white. Historically, the Church has used this word to mean spirit and matter, God and world. His use of it as moral judgement is not the way the Church has used it in the past. This alone, can create confusion. This speaker/author who supports Gay and Lesbian rights, says that when we are contemplative, we turn off our thinking (judgement) and we let whatever thoughts come to us without judging the morality of these thoughts. We don’t judge other’s sexuality, we don’t judge whether the thought is right or wrong, we should just be in the moment and accept it. He says this is a non-dualistic, contemplative mind. This is what we should strive for. We shouldn’t have “opinions” about what is right and wrong.

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP2KCLNfwJQ

The Church teaches us that we should form a conscience according to the Catholic traditions, bible, and doctrine. This conscience should be used to determine whether something is right or wrong. It never tells us to turn off our conscience.

This author sows seeds of confusion and divisiveness. Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing…By their fruits ye shall know them.”

The fruits of this author/speaker are confusion, dissension, and people thinking that this type of prayer is a sacrament of some kind. They think that if God is everywhere equally, why go to Church? If God is in everything equally, why do I need Holy Communion? If I can decide what meaning the scripture has to me and how I should live, why listen to what the Church teaches about that scripture? These questions, which a Catholic with a good faith foundation should know the answers to, have caused people without a strong faith foundation to listen to the author/speaker and say: “I don’t need the Church. I don’t need Holy Communion. I can decide what the scripture means for myself. I can choose to ignore what’s right or wrong.”

 

[Michael_Mayo]

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP2KCLNfwJQ

So when you sit to pray I hope you are not thinking about how sinful gay people are and how good and right it is to oppose their rights. Is that prayer? It sounds more like Luke 18:9 The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax-Collector.

How can you possibly have issue with that 7 minute video? He is talking about an open mind in Lectio Divina. For that moment of prayer, not judging or trying to prove anything but having an open mind to the work of God.

He is not teaching that Jesus has two beings. It seems to me that it is you who are sowing seeds of confusion as you clearly are not understanding him. Let the proper Church authorities deal with Fr. Richard if they feel the need.

But I have enjoyed the discussion. I simply do not agree with your conclusions.

May God bless you.

 

[simpleas]

Characteristics of the Kingdom and Its Demands

1. Jesus gradually reveals the characteristics and demands of the kingdom through his words, his actions and his own person.

The kingdom of God is meant for all mankind, and all people are called to become members of it. To emphasize this fact, Jesus drew especially near to those on the margins of society, and showed them special favor in announcing the Good News. At the beginning of his ministry he proclaimed that he was “anointed…to preach good news to the poor” (Lk 4:18). To all who are victims of rejection and contempt Jesus declares: “Blessed are you poor” (Lk 6:20). What is more, he enables such individuals to experience liberation even now, by being close to them, going to eat in their homes (cf. Lk 5:30; 15:2), treating them as equals and friends (cf. Lk 7:34), and making them feel loved by God, thus revealing his tender care for the needy and for sinners (cf. Lk 15:1-32).

The liberation and salvation brought by the kingdom of God come to the human person both in his physical and spiritual dimensions. Two gestures are characteristic of Jesus’ mission: healing and forgiving. Jesus’ many healings clearly show his great compassion in the face of human distress, but they also signify that in the kingdom there will no longer be sickness or suffering, and that his mission, from the very beginning, is meant to free people from these evils. In Jesus’ eyes, healings are also a sign of spiritual salvation, namely liberation from sin. By performing acts of healing, he invites people to faith, conversion and the desire for forgiveness (cf. Lk 5:24). Once there is faith, healing is an encouragement to go further: it leads to salvation (cf. Lk 18:42-43). The acts of liberation from demonic possession-the supreme evil and symbol of sin and rebellion against God-are signs that indeed “the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Mt 12:28).

1. The kingdom aims at transforming human relationships; it grows gradually as people slowly learn to love, forgive and serve one another. Jesus sums up the whole Law, focusing it on the commandment of love (cf. Mt 22:34-40; Lk 10:25-28). Before leaving his disciples, he gives them a “new commandment”: “Love one another; even as I have loved you” (Jn 13:34; cf. 15:12). Jesus’ love for the world finds its highest expression in the gift of his life for mankind (cf. Jn 15:13), which manifests the love which the Father has for the world (cf. Jn 3:16). The kingdom’s nature, therefore, is one of communion among all human beings-with one another and with God.

The kingdom is the concern of everyone: individuals, society, and the world. Working for the kingdom means acknowledging and promoting God’s activity, which is present in human history and transforms it. Building the kingdom means working for liberation from evil in all its forms. In a word, the kingdom of God is the manifestation and the realization of God’s plan of salvation in all its fullness.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t know, Granny, your Catholic view sounds like it is all us doing all the work and the CAC version more orthodox in that God does the action reaching down for us.

The truth of the matter is that it is not an either/or situation. Meditation (and all life) is **both **we share in God’s life **and **God shares in our life.

" …and God shares in our life."
Pardon me. That reminds me of an old misunderstanding of the Incarnation. Because the Incarnation would be off topic, I will drop that thought.