Do you believe the Kingdom of God is within you?

[grannymh]

May God bless you and give you Grace to keep you on the right path.

I did not repeat your valuable post because it is your closing which speaks to me and how I view the Kingdom of God within us. My thought is that our State of Sanctifying Grace is the Kingdom of God within us. I certainly need more information about this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Before you give any credence to the “Divine Dance…” I suggest you dig up information on what the author has to say about the “Cosmic Christ.” This guy believes that Christ came twice, first in the Big Bang and then when he was born. He says that Christ is in the rocks, trees, grass and us, equally. He says that we are not superior to animals. He call the sun, Brother Sun and the moon, Sister Moon. He has elaborate solstice celebrations. He has been reprimanded for not teaching according to the Catholic Church. He agreed to move his teachings more in line with what the Catholic Church teaches, but he has not. Every time a piece of literature from his organization that is contrary to Catholic teaching gets posted and someone makes a link to it, the link gets broken or the link takes you to something else.

I posted about the author of the “Divine Dance” on this site before. My post was taken down and most of the links that I posted were broken within hours of my post. I don’t think CAF broke the links.

I know someone who was in IT for a large corporation. He said that large corporations sometimes employ an IT person to search the internet for negative things about the company and then crash the site or break the links. It’s called scrubbing the internet. A university in California tried to get the internet scrubbed of a certain incident, but were not successful because too many news outlets carried it. People accused the Republicans of scrubbing Melania Trump’s background info. from the internet. There are companies that advertise that they will scrub the internet for you. I would suspect that someone does this for the author, but I have no idea if he is aware of it.

Here is a review of the “Divine Dance…” The reviewer says that the author has taken Trinitarian terminology and applied it to his own brand of religion. I think the author does this with everything he writes. He takes Catholic terminology and uses it to mean something different than what the Catholic Church teaches.

thegospelcoalition.org/article/book-review-the-divine-dance

May God bless you and give you Grace to keep you on the right path.

Your failure to understand Fr Rohr, doesn’t make what he wrote wrong. Sometimes his words are not easily understood, and not specific enough on Catholic Doctrine alone, for he tries to include, rather than exclude those who are not Catholic.

From his meditations, I’ve seen nothing that contradicts what other contemplatives have written, especially in the likes of St John of the Cross, and of course Thomas Merton.

As Contemplatives like Thomas Merton and other contemplative author’s have written, without the experience of interior prayer, the words about contemplation will not be understood and even be viewed as unorthodox by those who have not had the experience.

Today’s Mass readings are an example of how the Apostles were treated by the Sanhedrin, when they expressed their faith through the experience of Christ death and resurrection.

Contemplatives today are treated in a similar way, by those who have religion without the experience of contemplative spirituality.

Jim

 

[grannymh]

Shall we go back to the specific meditation material presented by a CAC faculty member.
The opening post 1.

 

[simpleas]

It’s kind of like asking, ‘Where is heaven-is it a state or a place or both?’ In any case it’s the “place” where God is, where we encounter Him, where we commune with Him, where we know Him. And we begin to encounter Him now, in this life, most completely via encountering Jesus. But that’s still not the be all and end all of it: “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 13:12. Our communion with God is only complete “then”, with the Beatific Vision, the full knowledge of God.

I have often thought about how we encounter God, speak to him/know him.

People have various ways, through other people, animals, creation.

This maybe why we have many old religions that are still practised. Each person will experience God in their own way.

 

[grannymh]

I have often thought about how we encounter God, speak to him/know him.

People have various ways, through other people, animals, creation.

This maybe why we have many old religions that are still practised. Each person will experience God in their own way.

While it is true that each person will experience God in their own way. There are multiple ways people explain God. Not all the ways people explain God are based on true Catholic teachings.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

He call the sun, Brother Sun and the moon, Sister Moon. .

Certainly you have heard of St Francis and his Canticle of the Sun

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord, All praise is Yours, all glory, all honor and all blessings.

To you alone, Most High, do they belong, and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun,
Who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,
Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,
So useful, humble, precious and pure.

Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth
who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon for love of You and bear sickness and trial.

Blessed are those who endure in peace, By You Most High, they will be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.

No second death can do them harm. Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,
And serve Him with great humility.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Your failure to understand Fr Rohr, doesn’t make what he wrote wrong. Sometimes his words are not easily understood, and not specific enough on Catholic Doctrine alone, for he tries to include, rather than exclude those who are not Catholic.

From his meditations, I’ve seen nothing that contradicts what other contemplatives have written, especially in the likes of St John of the Cross, and of course Thomas Merton.

As Contemplatives like Thomas Merton and other contemplative author’s have written, without the experience of interior prayer, the words about contemplation will not be understood and even be viewed as unorthodox by those who have not had the experience.

Today’s Mass readings are an example of how the Apostles were treated by the Sanhedrin, when they expressed their faith through the experience of Christ death and resurrection.

Contemplatives today are treated in a similar way, by those who have religion without the experience of contemplative spirituality.

Jim

Thomas Merton’s teachings are considered questionable by the Catholic church and were withdrawn when they were considered for inclusion in Catholic Catechism. You can google this if you are interested in truth. I understand perfectly what the author of “The Divine Dance…” means, and what he is doing. I have spent hours researching things that he has done and said. He believes that Jesus didn’t come to establish a church. He believes that Jesus came on this earth to unite all the existing religions into one big religion, including pantheists, Hindus, and Buddhists. It’s a mix of the heresy of relativism (one religion is as good as another) and gnosticism, (salvation by knowing the mysteries of the universe.) He believes that Christianity has been wrong for 2000 years, and he has come up with the real way to pray. He has the real message of the Bible not the Catholic “institution” as he calls it, that has existed for 2000 years.

I find it arrogant that someone would believe that God would allow his Church to be in error for 2000 years and then all of the sudden reveal what He really meant to this one guy and the people who follow him.

Just so you know, the Church has taught that God has bestowed the gift of mysticism on a handful of saints throughout the history of the Church. This was a gift given from God. It is not an altered state of consciousness where people can grasp for the god within on their own terms.

If you want to find the truth about him, look up what he has to say about the “Cosmic Christ” If you’re not a please-don’t-confuse-me-with-the-facts type person, look how he has used enneagrams and solstice celebrations and then read “Jesus the Water Bearer of Life” on the vatican website. Read what it describes there and compare it to this man’s teachings.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Or, you can believe whatever you want to believe, just don’t call it Catholicism.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thomas Merton’s teachings are considered questionable by the Catholic church and were withdrawn when they were considered for inclusion in Catholic Catechism.

This is false.

The only book I know of that didn’t have the Imprimatur, by Thomas Merton was Zen and the Birds of Appetite.

The others were approved by the Church.

The Catechism isn’t a book review text, nor does it get into the depths of Contemplative Prayer and Spirituality.

Jim

 

[grannymh]

This is false.

The only book I know of that didn’t have the Imprimatur, by Thomas Merton was Zen and the Birds of Appetite.

The others were approved by the Church.

The Catechism isn’t a book review text, nor does it get into the depths of Contemplative Prayer and Spirituality.

Jim

Please check out what the nihil obstat and *imprimatur actually mean.
They are not a stated approval of the entire text. Rather the nihil obstat *only indicates that [heretical] errors do not appear in the text. A good writer, bent on tampering with Catholicism, can use a lot of words which ultimately distract from main Catholic doctrines. For example – the fly in the ointment. Normally, some internet meditations do not ask for the nihil obstat and imprimatur.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Please check out what the nihil obstat and *imprimatur actually mean.
They are not a blanket approval of the text. Rather the nihil obstat *onlyindicates that [heretical] errors do not appear in the text. A good writer, bent on tampering with Catholicism, can use a lot of words which ultimately distract from a few main Catholic doctrines. For example – the fly in the ointment. Normally, internet meditations do not ask for the nihil obstat and imprimatur.

I understand what it means, Its means the work is free of doctrinal errors and was commonly used during the time Merton wrote.

It’s used less today.

Also, the Imprimatur is showing that the text has the approval for Catholics to read.

The Church never rejected his work as previously claimed which is the point.

Fact is, Merton’s work is recommended for Catholics to read by Bishops priests and religious teachers in the Church.

Jim

 

[Galnextdoor]

Certainly you have heard of St Francis and his Canticle of the Sun

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord, All praise is Yours, all glory, all honor and all blessings.

To you alone, Most High, do they belong, and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun,
Who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,
Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,
So useful, humble, precious and pure.

Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth
who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon for love of You and bear sickness and trial.

Blessed are those who endure in peace, By You Most High, they will be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.

No second death can do them harm. Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,
And serve Him with great humility.

I have read this before. This is a prayer written in a poetic context. St. Francis was praising God for His creation. He was not saying that Sun is equal to us and the moon is equal to us. Nor was he saying they were gods. They are objects with no soul. I actually heard the author that I have been writing about say that the sun is our brother and the moon is our sister. You can hear him say it, too if you choose to do the research. He said that Christ is in the Sun and the Moon just the same as he is in the Earth, trees, and grass. He says that these inanimate objects are our equals and we must embrace them as such. He says that we should treat the animals and plants with the same dignity that we treat human beings. (I have no idea what he eats, but I have read that he is very into Nativism. So perhaps he thanks their spirits before he eats them? I don’t know.) The author was close and holds beliefs similar to the defrocked Matthew Fox.
The difference is that he takes Catholic terminology and applies it to mean Eastern Mysticism concepts. The author is a great friend of Fr. Thomas Keating who mixed Eastern Mysticism with Catholicism, something the Church denounced in it’s publication “Jesus the Water Bearer of Life.” This information can be found by simply googling Fr.Thomas Keating’s name and then read what is written on the vatican website.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

I could post a whole page of links validating what I say, but then those links would all be broken just like the original poster’s link has been broken.

 

[grannymh]

I understand what they mean.

However, they are a an approval of the text for Catholics to read.

The Church never rejected his work as previously claimed which is the point.

Fact is, Merton’s work is recommended for Catholics to read by Bishops priests and religious teachers in the Church.

Jim

Yup. Now I understand the problem.
So, can you go back to the link provided in post 1?

If this is a personal question, please ignore it. What are your feelings about having the Kingdom of God within you?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I have read this before. This is a prayer written in a poetic context. St. Francis was praising God for His creation. He was not saying that Sun is equal to us and the moon is equal to us. Nor was he saying they were gods. They are objects with no soul. I actually heard the author that I have been writing about say that the sun is our brother and the moon is our sister. You can hear him say it, too if you choose to do the research. He said that Christ is in the Sun and the Moon just the same as he is in the Earth, trees, and grass. He says that these inanimate objects are our equals and we must embrace them as such. He says that we should treat the animals and plants with the same dignity that we treat human beings. (I have no idea what he eats, but I have read that he is very into Nativism. So perhaps he thanks their spirits before he eats them? I don’t know.) The author was close and holds beliefs similar to the defrocked Matthew Fox.
The difference is that he takes Catholic terminology and applies it to mean Eastern Mysticism concepts. The author is a great friend of Fr. Thomas Keating who mixed Eastern Mysticism with Catholicism, something the Church denounced in it’s publication “Jesus the Water Bearer of Life.” This information can be found by simply googling Fr.Thomas Keating’s name and then read what is written on the vatican website.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

I could post a whole page of links validating what I say, but then those links would all be broken just like the original poster’s link has been broken.

He seems to me to be saying that perhaps if we thought of God as all around us all the time and within us as well we might experience a more intimate and less cerebral relationship with God. Then the Kingdom will be within us and we will be in the Kingdom. Like the Trinity, rather than an abstract intellectual mystery more like the very life within us and all our relationships. I have already linked to that Vatican document but everyone seems to pick what they want from it to shoot at someone else and skim over the questions for discernment.

 

[Galnextdoor]

This is false.

The only book I know of that didn’t have the Imprimatur, by Thomas Merton was Zen and the Birds of Appetite.

The others were approved by the Church.

The Catechism isn’t a book review text, nor does it get into the depths of Contemplative Prayer and Spirituality.

Jim

Thomas Merton was the first to try to mix Eastern Mysticism with Catholicism, a practice condemned by the Catholic church. Please read the document “Jesus the Water Bearer of Life” published by by the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Or should we just discount what the Magisterium teaches, as well, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Galnextdoor]

He seems to me to be saying that perhaps if we thought of God as all around us all the time and within us as well we might experience a more intimate and less cerebral relationship with God. Then the Kingdom will be within us and we will be in the Kingdom. Like the Trinity, rather than an abstract intellectual mystery more like the very life within us and all our relationships. I have already linked to that Vatican document but everyone seems to pick what they want from it to shoot at someone else and skim over the questions for discernment.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Kingdom of God is the Church. The Church is a belief system, as well as, all the people living, and the people purgatory, and the people in heaven. (The communion of the saints that we profess to believe in at mass every Sunday.)

The links that I previously posted from the Catholic Catechism were discussing the Kingdom of God and were under the heading of The Church. It said that the Kingdom of God was the Church now here on earth and will be completed in heaven.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thomas Merton was the first to try to mix Eastern Mysticism with Catholicism, a practice condemned by the Catholic church. Please read the document “Jesus the Water Bearer of Life” published by by the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Or should we just discount what the Magisterium teaches, as well, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Galnextdoor, perhaps it wont surprise you that I am also a great fan of Thomas Merton. I almost became a Trappist back in the early 80’s. Your analysis of him is much too facile. he was a complex man and his theology was very sophisticated. He never discounted the magisterium nor do those faithful Catholics who find value in his writings today.

Why are you so eager to target others?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Kingdom of God is the Church. The Church is a belief system, as well as, all the people living, and the people purgatory, and the people in heaven. (The communion of the saints that we profess to believe in at mass every Sunday.)

The links that I previously posted from the Catholic Catechism were discussing the Kingdom of God and were under the heading of The Church. It said that the Kingdom of God was the Church now here on earth and will be completed in heaven.

So then we are the Kingdom of God?

 

[grannymh]

He seems to me to be saying that perhaps if we thought of God as all around us all the time and within us as well we might experience a more intimate and less cerebral relationship with God. Then the Kingdom will be within us and we will be in the Kingdom. Like the Trinity, rather than an abstract intellectual mystery more like the very life within us and all our relationships. I have already linked to that Vatican document but everyone seems to pick what they want from it to shoot at someone else and skim over the questions for discernment.

Yes, it is time for Catholics to realize the importance of God in our lives.

Those people who are in the State of Sanctifying Grace already experience a more intimate and less cerebral relationship with God. (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) Is there really something better than Genesis 1: 27 or CCC 355-356?

Do people really think that the Kingdom of God is something foreign to God’s presence?

The very clever beginning of the post 1 link sets the stage for confusion. Then comes the down to earth conclusion which is a metaphor. Metaphors are loved because they do not require hard work. When one studies Genesis 1: 27 which is related to the State of Sanctifying Grace, confusion can slip away into real knowledge about Catholicism and God’s love. Genesis 3: 15 and John 3: 16-17.

And yes, the Catholic Church is also the Kingdom of God because God is present in it.

It is not a good thing to limit the presence of God.

 

[Galnextdoor]

This is false.

The Catechism isn’t a book review text, nor does it get into the depths of Contemplative Prayer and Spirituality.

Jim

The Church has traditionally taught that contemplative prayer is a form a prayer that contemplates God and His attributes while adoring and praising Him. (i.e. meditating on the wounds of Christ while giving thanks and praise for His Mercy.)

The term contemplative prayer has been used by the author of “The Divine Dance…” to mean a form of eastern mystical emptying of the mind while placing oneself in an altered state of consciousness. This is Eastern meditation and is not approved by the Church. The altered state of mind can make a person more suggestable to things that are not from God. It is similar to being hypnotized. People who are hypnotized are in an altered state of conscious. Under hypnosis, people will think, do, and say many things that they would not if they were in full control of their free will. Eastern meditation is like a form of self-hypnosis. In this state, our mind is opened to temptations and thoughts that we would not normally be open to. If this no one is around, then this may seem harmless, but the problem is that people have come to believe this is what God is all about. They think that they are praying and being One with the God that lives inside themselves. Whatever thoughts they might encounter, they think are coming from becoming part of God. Trying to become God has never ended well in history or the historical parts of the bible. We are not part of God. The author of the “Divine Dance” puts out a periodical publication that he calls the Oneing. The title refers to his belief that we don’t have die and go to heaven to experience the ultimate union with God. We can have Him here on our terms by simply allowing ourselves to go into an alternate state of consciousness that he calls contemplative prayer.
You will find that Chopra advocates the same thing.

I know that this seems like a new exciting way to God that the author and his followers have found, and other people just haven’t been smart enough to figure it out. But it is not the way that the Catholic Church has taught us is the path to God. Jesus founded the Catholic Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. This whole “new way” of becoming “part of the Christ” reminds me of the snake in the Garden of Eden telling Eve she would be like God if she just ate of the Forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

[Galnextdoor]

So then we are the Kingdom of God?

If we follow the teachings of the Magistarium and the Catholic Church, and we strive to have a personal relationship with God, then we are the Catholic Church which is part of the Kingdom of God. The other part is in heaven.