Do you believe the Kingdom of God is within you?

[Galnextdoor]

Just a few places in the Living Flame of Love, where St John uses the term, “Center.”

The entire text can be read on-line here.

Jim

As I mentioned before, I have seen this book listed for use at “New Age” retreat centers.

This a translation of something, not the actual writings, and I am not familiar with this translator or how accurately or in what context he placed the writings.

 

[Galnextdoor]

To my mind, the kingdom of God is a huge subject and isn’t just one thing. I’m no scripture scholar, but that much I’m pretty clear on. So for me to agree it’s this, or that, or something else would be agreeing to something that is untrue.

That makes me so sad. I trust the Church’s teachings because Jesus founded it. Although the Catholic Catechism doesn’t go into every detail, it does say that the Church is the Kingdom of God. (We aren’t talking about the church as a building.) So, … I think the Church is the real mystery here.

Here is the link to the CC vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P27.HTM

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Michael Mayo;14636507:

I am not talking about a word. I am talking about a phrase. The "core of my being "which is the first part of the mantra that I cited. You say those words to a practicing Hindu and she can finish the rest of the mantra. I am infinite reality is the last part of the mantra. Aham Brahmasmi is like saying the Our Father to a Catholic. If you say “Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name” to a Catholic they can finish the rest of the prayer. We call it the Our Father, which is part of the prayer. Others call it the Lord’s prayer.

It may be the first part of a mantra, but that is simply coinsidental and not really surprising since spirituality, by its very nature, brings one to introspection.

I get that you are “trying to inform people so they wont be taken in by New Age ideology”. But you may also be making things more confusing by introducing non-Christian terms in a Christian discussion. Are you also trying to associate St John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, with “New Age” spirituality?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Actually, I am not familiar with that translator. I have seen that this particular book is used in New Age “Christian” retreats.

The translators are Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD.

They are Discalced Carmelites, OCD with PHD’s.

I’m a professed member of the Discalaced Carmelite Order, Secular, OCDS.

We used their translation throughout our formation.

This translation of “The Collected Works of St John of the Cross,” along with “The Collected Works of St Teresa of Avila,” are published by The Institute of Carmelite Studes, ICS.

The translation both of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila by these two Friars, : Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, are what is accepted and used by the Discalced Carmelite Order.

It makes little difference to us, if New Ager’s use it, just as it makes little difference to us that people New Ager’s also use Rosary Beads and a bastardized version of the Catholic Mass.

We don’t follow the New Age, but Catholicism as authorized by the Catholic Church.

I believe you may be a troll, for you’re posts are nothing more than baiting, even though you’ve been given accurate information.

I’m only responding here so that other’s reading this thread won’t be misled by you.

Jim

 

[ThisOne]

As I mentioned before, I have seen this book listed for use at “New Age” retreat centers.

This a translation of something, not the actual writings, and I am not familiar with this translator or how accurately or in what context he placed the writings.

That doesn’t mean that its content is suspect! It means that its being used to mislead people.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Galnextdoor;14637252:

It may be the first part of a mantra, but that is simply coinsidental and not really surprising since spirituality, by its very nature, brings one to introspection.

I get that you are “trying to inform people so they wont be taken in by New Age ideology”. But you may also be making things more confusing by introducing non-Christian terms in a Christian discussion. Are you also trying to associate St John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, with “New Age” spirituality?

I see that your mind is closed to the fact that “Core of my Being” is the first part of a Hindu mantra that has existed for thousands of years.
If you want to see how Hindu practices and beliefs are being integrated into Christianity, check out the link I provided. Here it is again. I challenge you to watch it. It gives an honest history of centering prayer or “contemplative prayer” as the New Agers call it. youtube.com/watch?v=TufpAQUXpTo
This woman gives retreats at “Catholic” venues, including the Center for Action and Contemplation. She mentions the Hindus more often than God. Boston College, where she is giving this workshop, is supposed to be a Jesuit university.

I’m sorry but New Agers are the people who associated St. John of the Cross with their movement. They are the ones who are using him to try to give their movement some validity.

BTW, I did not bring up St. John of the Cross, I was responding to a post by Jim.

 

[Galnextdoor]

The translators are Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD.

They are Discalced Carmelites, OCD with PHD’s.

I’m a professed member of the Discalaced Carmelite Order, Secular, OCDS.

We used their translation throughout our formation.

This translation of “The Collected Works of St John of the Cross,” along with “The Collected Works of St Teresa of Avila,” are published by The Institute of Carmelite Studes, ICS.

The translation both of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila by these two Friars, : Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, are what is accepted and used by the Discalced Carmelite Order.

It makes little difference to us, if New Ager’s use it, just as it makes little difference to us that people New Ager’s also use Rosary Beads and a bastardized version of the Catholic Mass.

We don’t follow the New Age, but Catholicism as authorized by the Catholic Church.

I believe you may be a troll, for you’re posts are nothing more than baiting, even though you’ve been given accurate information.

I’m only responding here so that other’s reading this thread won’t be misled by you.

Jim

I am happy for you that you do not follow New Agers. Thank you for acknowledging that the information I have given is true. I have never mentioned the Discalced Carmelite Order before. I don’t know for sure that you are actually a Discalced Carmelite lay person as you claim, but if you are, you are not setting a good example by suggesting that I am a troll, because you don’t like what I am saying. It doesn’t matter to me what your walk in life is. I only care about your soul.

I don’t want people to be led away from the Church that Jesus established. It’s part of loving my neighbor. Through Jesus’ mercy, if I make it to heaven, I would like to see all of you there.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I see that your mind is closed to the fact that “Core of my Being” is the first part of a Hindu mantra that has existed for thousands of years.
.

The fact does not matter, just as it does not matter that Hindus have also used incense for thousands of years. Why do you have such a problem with a common phrase?

I am well aware of Rev. Cynthia and will watch the video. Thank you for it but I am not as much interested in “Centering Prayer” as I am, like Jim, more drawn to St John and even St Bonaventure.

I think you are overreacting to those who seek common ground in contemplative spirituality and practices. Why not be more concerned with your own journey than that of others?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I don’t like her speaking style. She is right though, Centering Prayer comes from The Cloud of Unkowing. Are you familiar wiith that classic?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am happy for you that you do not follow New Agers. Thank you for acknowledging that the information I have given is true. I have never mentioned the Discalced Carmelite Order before. I don’t know for sure that you are actually a Discalced Carmelite lay person as you claim, but if you are, you are not setting a good example by suggesting that I am a troll, because you don’t like what I am saying. It doesn’t matter to me what your walk in life is. I only care about your soul.

I don’t want people to be led away from the Church that Jesus established. It’s part of loving my neighbor. Through Jesus’ mercy, if I make it to heaven, I would like to see all of you there.

You say you don’t know if I’m actually a Discalced Carmelite or not.

Well, why would I say so in this forum if I was not ?

Also, it’s not your job to prevent people being led away from the Church. That’s the job of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to merely follow Christ with love and compassion, and the rest will take care of itself.

I can’t help it if you have a mental block against why Michael, myself and others have posted, which you feel it’s your job to attack.

That being said, continuing further on this thread is not conducive toward spiritual growth.

It merely causes division, between people of faith and people of religion. They are two different things.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t like her speaking style. She is right though, Centering Prayer comes from The Cloud of Unkowing. Are you familiar wiith that classic?

I’m subscribed to Fr Rohr’s site for daily meditations.

A few weeks ago, instead of his meditation, he used Cynthia Bourgeault’s.

I tried reading the first few, but found she tries to speak on an intellectual plane which merely makes it sound like she’s confused and trying to establish just what it is she believes.

Contemplation really isn’t that difficult, because it’s given by God to the simple soul who is open to God’s grace and not by some method of prayer or level of thought.

Jim

 

[grannymh]

Also, it’s not your job to prevent people being led away from the Church. That’s the job of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to merely follow Christ with love and compassion, and the rest will take care of itself.

Do I dare mention Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, paragraphs 11 & 12.
As for mentioning stealth (modern) Arianism…

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc

I am ready to give up my attempts to present basic Catholic teachings…

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Do I dare mention Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, paragraphs 11 & 12.
As for mentioning stealth (modern) Arianism…

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc

I am ready to give up my attempts to present basic Catholic teachings…

1. Now if these only aimed at adapting ecclesiastical teaching and methods to modern conditions and requirements, through the introduction of some new explanations, there would be scarcely any reason for alarm.

Sometimes this is what is going on. But difficult to tell. that is why we need bishops to help discern.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Do I dare mention Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, paragraphs 11 & 12.
As for mentioning stealth (modern) Arianism…

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc

I am ready to give up my attempts to present basic Catholic teachings…

Pope Piux XII, teaching as the head of the Catholic Church, to the Bishops of the Church, who are also our teachers.

Doesn’t apply to folks in here rejecting teachings by Discalced Carmelites authors, because they think its New Age.

Jim

 

[grannymh]

Pope Piux XII, teaching as the head of the Catholic Church, to the Bishops of the Church, who are also our teachers.

Doesn’t apply to folks in here rejecting teachings by Discalced Carmelites authors, because they think its New Age.

Jim

I am sure you would be totally surprised as to whom it applies. On the other hand, like many people point out – this would be dismissed because the encyclical refers to the 1940’s. Frankly my dear… I know it is often useless to point to Catholic teachings.

 

[Galnextdoor]

I don’t like her speaking style. She is right though, Centering Prayer comes from The Cloud of Unkowing. Are you familiar wiith that classic?

That is not what she said. She said it started 40 years ago with St. Joseph’s Abbey in Massachusetts. Don’t you remember the little story she told about the Zen retreat house opening up the road from the St. Joseph’s Abbey. People were getting lost and showing up at the Abbey. People were seeking spiritual guidance at the Zen retreat and Fr. Keating decided that they needed to figure out a way to tap into that and somehow find a “path” to make it Catholic. He assigned a monk to the task. The monk studied Hindu and read The Cloud of Unknowing and came up with an idea for a “path” to meld both religions together.

The really sad thing is that I read somewhere that the monk who came up with the idea ended up leaving the monastery and joining the Zen Transcendentalists up the road.

The New Agers are very fond of hi-jacking written works and interpreting them in way that they were never intended to be interpreted to support their new brand of religion.

What I am trying to do here is teach people to look for certain phrases and ideas that the New Age “Catholics” are trying to weave into the Roman Catholic Tradition. The ultimate goal of these people is to “tear down the old way of interpreting the Gospel and tear down the church container it emerged from.” After the old church container, as they call the Catholic Church, is torn down then they can build a new legitimate church without all that old negative baggage.

Jim Marion, the author that the original poster spoke so glowingly of, wrote, “Death of the Mythic God, The Rise of Evolutionary Spirituality.”

 

[Galnextdoor]

Pope Piux XII, teaching as the head of the Catholic Church, to the Bishops of the Church, who are also our teachers.

Doesn’t apply to folks in here rejecting teachings by Discalced Carmelites authors, because they think its New Age.

Jim

I am not saying to reject the teachings of saints or Discalced Carmelite authors. You are the one who keeps dragging the Discalced Carmelites into the discussion. I told you that I was not familiar with that author. I think that you are taking this personally and reading things between the lines that I never intended.

If you want to take this personally, than p.m. me and we can talk there. I think I get where you are coming from. I know, however, that you don’t understand where I am coming from.

Are you familiar with "Progressive Catholics or New Age Catholics?’

Try reading my previous post. Maybe that will help?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Gal, you said to Jim that you are not familiar with the Carmelite author. Are you at all familiar with Carmelite spirituality*,The Cloud of Unknowing *or the Mystical Theology of PseudoDyonisius? I ask because those are the real roots of Centering Prayer retrieved by Fr. Keating. I encourage you to at least read them. They are classics of Western Spirituality.

I think we all know that anything can be appropriated by anybody for any purpose. But contemplative spirituality is ancient in Catholic Christian faith.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Gal, you said to Jim that you are not familiar with the Carmelite author. Are you at all familiar with Carmelite spirituality*,The Cloud of Unknowing *or the Mystical Theology of PseudoDyonisius? I ask because those are the real roots of Centering Prayer retrieved by Fr. Keating. I encourage you to at least read them. They are classics of Western Spirituality.

I think we all know that anything can be appropriated by anybody for any purpose. But contemplative spirituality is ancient in Catholic Christian faith.

Ok. I see that your mind is set on centering prayer, which the New Age Catholics have tried to attribute to the special type of contemplative prayer that has existed for centuries. This is the weaving that I wrote about. Their attempt to give it some type of legitimacy. I guess you will not even listen to an authority on centering prayer who promotes it, such as Rev. Cynthia as you call her. She said it was invented 40 years ago by melding aspects of The Unknowing Cloud with Hindu. Try googling the history of centering prayer. Don’t go to a New Age website. Just click on wikipedia. I’m guessing that you will say that Wikipedia is wrong too?

May God bless you and lead you down the right path.

 

[ThisOne]

What I am trying to do here is teach people to look for certain phrases and ideas that the New Age “Catholics” are trying to weave into the Roman Catholic Tradition. The ultimate goal of these people is to “tear down the old way of interpreting the Gospel and tear down the church container it emerged from.” After the old church container, as they call the Catholic Church, is torn down then they can build a new legitimate church without all that old negative baggage.

I think your motive is commendable. We do need to be warned against watering down Catholic belief within the Church.