Do you believe there is one true church?

[Tantum_ergo]

As far as I am aware, the Episcopal (Anglican) church does not consider abortion a mortal sin, does it?

40 million dead through abortion in the U.S. alone is a holocaust, is it not?

The sad abuse of children by a tiny fraction of people who went against Church teachings is awful. Key words "Against Church teaching’.

But the millions dead with nary a peep of protest from those whose Church does not even consider their death a sin. . .

Key words, "Does not consider their death a sin. . .is not ‘against church teaching.’

Well. You really think that the wrongful actions against Church teaching by some of its members ‘invalidate’ that church,

yet the wrongful actions of far more of the members of another church, who don’t even believe in some Christian teachings anymore and thus have ‘changed’ them, are not a problem?

 

[Traveller1534]

Where did the abortion argument come up?? I thought we were talking about child sexual abuse. Regardless of your opinion on abortion (mine just happens to be the same as yours) the issue still stands that many priests in the Catholic church sexually abused children for decades and got away with it. When the heat got too close, the Bishop would move them. This in itself is an atrocity. It would be for any major denomination not just the Roman Catholic church but the facts are that this scandal was indeed the Catholic churchs’. I heard in the news that Maryland was considering extending the statute of limitations in order for those abused in the Catholic church to step forward but the diocese of Baltimore was protesting it. That figures.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Are you aware that for the majority of the time these abuses took place, the MDs and psychiatrists believed that an abuser could be cured? That these priests were ‘moved around quietly’ not to ‘abuse again’ but because they were pronounced cured by the medical authorities and were considered safe to be around children, and that being around children would help them to adjust? Alcoholics were treated (around the same time period) in the same way; it was believed that an alcoholic could be cured permanently and that allowing an alcoholic to be exposed to ‘social drinking’ would help him adjust.

Now, are you going to hold the bishops responsible for following the qualified medical advice and not being able to fast-forward to the future when the medicos reversed their positions and decided, gee, I guess these people really can’t be cured?

Are you also going to hold bishops responsible for believing the priests who told them that they were ‘ok’; that they were ‘not guilty’. . .IOW, in the cases where the abusers abused and lied about the abuse to their bishops?

What about all the ‘other’ people guilty of abuse? The fathers, mothers, relatives, teachers, coaches, scout leaders etc., who lied and covered up their abuse? Are you blaming their faith communities, or the authorities who believed them?

 

[Traveller1534]

Sir, you don’t seem to want to deal with the issue at hand. The issue is that the abuses took place in what you would believe to be the one and only true church of Christ. If I were still Cathoic, I would find it simply horrific that the Bishops would even consider an answer from the medical sources trumping what they themselves profess to know what is right. I do not believe for one second that they didn’t grasp the severity of the problem. They never figured it would blow up like it did. How many children and families did it gravely hurt beyond repair??

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Point of information: It’s ma’am, not sir.

The issue is that the abuses took place in what you would believe to be the one and only true church of Christ. Yes. I believe that Jesus appointed 12 apostles, 1 of whom betrayed him and all of whom left him at the Garden of Gethsemane to be taken. If there can be betrayal and wrong actions by individuals, even good individuals (we know that Christ forgave them when they repented) while Christ was on earth, there can be betrayal and wrong actions by individuals, even good individuals who have repented. Are you lesser in charity than Christ? Didn’t he tell you to forgive?? If I were still Cathoic, I would find it simply horrific that the Bishops would even consider an answer from the medical sources trumping what they themselves profess to know what is right.Excuse me. Did you read what I said? The medicos did not, nor did the bishops, think that the actions were right. . .merely that the abuser could be cured. Do you usually think you know more about disease than your doctor? We are not talking about whether the abuse was right or wrong (it was wrong), but whether the abuser was thought capable of being cured. The bishops are not medical experts, nor would I expect them to be. I do not believe for one second that they didn’t grasp the severity of the problem.What you** believe **doesn’t matter. You don’t know their hearts and you were not privy to any of the cases, were you? I do not think that God is asking, “About Bishop so-and-so, did he sin? Guess I’d better check with Traveller.” They never figured it would blow up like it did. In one breath, you’re saying that they knew this was a huge problem–making them near omniscent; in the next, you say they ‘didn’t figure it would blow up’–making them totally clueless. You can’t have it both ways.How many children and families did it gravely hurt beyond repair?? Many, which is a sin and a scandal. Nobody argues that. But again, this hurt was done not by following the Church, but by disobeying the Church.

Basically, you’re trying to argue that disobedience to the church by some people equates to the Church being culpable for the disobedience . . .and that does not make sense.

 

[teachccd]

I believe that you are ducking the real issue here. Sure I am positive that every denomination has had someone in their realm from one time or another be involved in child sexual abuse but I am speaking of a scandal, a huge billion dollar plus scandal that the Catholic church attempted to cover up for years and years. It has been proven to be so. And FYI, they are called priests in the Episcopal church.

Thank you for reminding me that the Episcopal church calls them priests. So where exactly are you going with this thread??
You made your point. So now what?? My faith in the Catholic Church as the one true Church is not shaken by the heinous crimes of some of its clergy. The Sacramental life, apostolic succession and the antiquity of the Early Church Fathers all maintain the authenticity of our Church.

So where are you going and how many posts do you need to exhibit your displeasure with the Catholic Church?? We know your position and you know ours. So what is left to do here??

 

[Montalban]

It wasn’t Catholic.

The Orthodox Church is Catholic, so I’m going to have to say “Yes, it is” on this one.

The Apostles would be ashamed if they could see how todays Catholic Church acts. Sitting on all wealth and letting people in Africa to die of lack of food and water.

I’m sure the Africans will be glad to know that you’re going to sell your computer to help feed them.

Tá Criosd ar éirigh!
Christ is risen

 

[Montalban]

Where did the abortion argument come up?? I thought we were talking about child sexual abuse. .

Perhaps the killing of children (unborn) is the ultimate form of abuse?

Just my
:twocents:

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
(Christ is risen)

 

[mozart-250]

Is there only one true Christian church?

Coming back from a Lenten sabbatical.

It is clear from Scripture there is one church.

In other words: Did Jesus intend for there to be so many different churches? Why / why not??

Well, this is what you are really asking. To answer this question, you first have to answer the question “How did Christ intend His one church to be organized?”

I am not totally sure.

I see three possibilities now as an anwer to this questions.
(1) Christ intended His one church to be centrally organized
(2) Christ intended His one church to have no hierarchy.
(3) Christ did not have a specific organizational design for His one church that spans all time across all the globe.

I tend to lean to option 3 for the following reasons, but can be persuaded otherwise.

• It seems to be a good starting point. If Christ did have a specific organizational design for His Church, let the proponents of that specific organizational design prove their case.
• It is the only option that explains the present church environment. Under options 1 and 2, much of the present day church would be blatantly unscriptural.

Note that options 2 and 3 imply the existance of organizational factions. If organizational factions are in fact within God’s design, this does not mean that it is a part of God’s design for these organizational factions to bicker amongst themselves. Bickering does seems to be outside the design of Christ according to John 17,

As far as the Catholic church being a denomination, the dictionary disagrees with you:

4 : a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

In fact this seems to be a good starting point if one wants to try to examine Christianity with some semblance of objectivity with absolutely no assumptions. Why not view all religious organizations (within Christianity) as more-or-less equal, and if any religious organization claims superiority (or claims others as inferior), the burden of proof rests upon the religious organization making that claim.

 

[guanophore]

Many of you speak of schisms and such but isn’t the underlying truth here that many times the so called true church of Christ has fallen and fallen gravely??

No, Travellor, this is not the case. By saying the “so called church of Christ” you are slapping Jesus in the face. He HImself founded what he called “My Church”. You are insulting his ability to preserve the purity of His bride.

You can’t just sit there behind all of your self righteousness and pretend that no matter what happens, mother church will not and cannot be led astray.

It is not self righteousness, Traveller, but the righteousness that comes from God in Christ. None of us have an righteousness of ourselves, but in Him, we are preserved. He promised that He would send HIs Spirit to lead us into all truth, and that He would be with us till the end of the age. If you choose not to place your trust in Him, and in His precious promises, that is your affair, but don’t insult those of us that do!

All of the many scandals over the centuries, the child sexual abuse, the coddling and protection of Nazi war criminals, the Spanish Inquisition and need I go on??

They behaved scandalously when Jesus was on earth also. There will be more scandals too, and I think they will get worse. However, the evil that men do does not nullify the promise of Christ.

It is very evident in history that folks such as Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer knew that the church was meant to stay on God’s course but the folks from withing were too hell bent (I meant that intentionally) to do things their own self serving political way. If anyone has had an adgenda here, it is the Catholic church over the centuries with scandals, lies and God knows what else!

There were men that were self serving and power hungry in Luther’s day, and their behavior is one of the causes for the reformation. It is wrong for you to accuse the Bride of Christ of their wrongs. In a way, it impugnes Christ Himself.

 

[Contarini]

Is there only one true Christian church?

Yes, and it is composed of all baptized people who profess faith in Christ as witnessed in the Apostles’ Creed.

In other words: Did Jesus intend for there to be so many different churches?

“Denominations” are not churches. They are groups of local churches that share similar traditions and beliefs and have some kind of unifying organizational structure. Other terms that denote Christian divisions are “confession,” “communion,” and “tradition.” “Traditions” are broader than denominations. “Confession” denotes people who hold to a common profession of faith (more specific than the ancient Creeds). “Communion” denotes a group of local churches which fully recognize one another as members of the same Church and share the sacraments with each other.

In this last sense, Christ certainly intends all Christians to form one Communion. Of course He also wants us all to be united in the fullness of the Faith, but in my opinion this is a process that is never completed in this world (witness the development of doctrine within the Catholic Church), so full communion should not have to wait for full doctrinal agreement (this is one of my major points of difference with Catholicism). And of course there is nothing wrong with different traditions and even autonomous organizational structures within the one Communion of the Church (witness the different Rites and sui juris churches that compose the Catholic Church).

Edwin

 

[jmcrae]

Staying on course with this issue I still don’t believe that any one church can lay claim to being Christ’s only. After all, I seriously would doubt that he would lay claim to only one church and it be the one who condoned sexual abuse of children for decades and even centuries who has finally had to become honest with its parishioners about this grave travesty as over a billion dollars have been paid out in lawsuits.

The very first public act of our very first Pope was to deny that he knew Christ - three times.

A perfect opportunity for Christ to have founded the Methodist Church, or the Lutheran Church, etc., right then and there, no?

Yet, He did not. Instead, we see in John 21:15-19, that He reinstated the Pope back into his position, reiterated His promises to the Church, and charged him with the care of all of His sheep and all of His lambs except for those who will remain known only to Himself until the Last Day.

 

[jmcrae]

Sir, you don’t seem to want to deal with the issue at hand. The issue is that the abuses took place in what you would believe to be the one and only true church of Christ.

These kinds of things take place everywhere that there are gatherings of children. Predators go where the children are, and do whatever they have to, including get a teaching degree, become a coach, or join the priesthood, in order to gain access to children who will be required to be alone with them for at least some portion of the time.

Exactly the same things are going on at your local school and in your Protestant churches. You don’t know about it, because the press doesn’t want people to realize that celibacy doesn’t actually cause sexual deviancy. These people were deviant long before they took vows of celibacy.

They took the vows of celibacy because it was a necessary step in getting close to their victims.

The Church’s only fault was in not screening these people for mental illnesses - a fault that has since been remedied. It’s extremely difficult to get into Seminary, these days, even with a shortage of priests.

You may be surprised to learn that a Catholic Church is probably the safest place for children to gather, since the pedophiles aren’t being rounded up and (figuratively) burned at the stake anywhere else.

 

[teachccd]

You may be surprised to learn that a Catholic Church is probably the safest place for children to gather, since the pedophiles aren’t being rounded up and (figuratively) burned at the stake anywhere else.

I would have to agree. I teach junior high religious education at our parish. I had to get fingerprinted, background check and attend a Virtus training program geared at recognizing child sexual abuse. We are instructed not to touch the kids in any way and are really under the microscope. As a male teacher, I’m made to feel uncomfortable if a student should choose to give me a hug.

Yes, you are correct. The Catholic Church is probably the safest place for children at this time. You’d have to be an idiot to try any inappropriate behavior there. Other churches and organizations?? Well that’s anyones’ guess…teachccd:shrug:

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Where did the abortion argument come up?? I thought we were talking about child sexual abuse. Regardless of your opinion on abortion (mine just happens to be the same as yours) the issue still stands that many priests in the Catholic church sexually abused children for decades and got away with it. When the heat got too close, the Bishop would move them. This in itself is an atrocity. It would be for any major denomination not just the Roman Catholic church but the facts are that this scandal was indeed the Catholic churchs’. I heard in the news that Maryland was considering extending the statute of limitations in order for those abused in the Catholic church to step forward but the diocese of Baltimore was protesting it. That figures.

Traveler,

You seem to have a serious ax to grind. Is it the case that the ecclesial community you are in now has no skeletons in the closet? Did you stumble upon THE group that was the hotel for saints rather than the hospital for sinners?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I believe that you are ducking the real issue here. Sure I am positive that every denomination has had someone in their realm from one time or another be involved in child sexual abuse but I am speaking of a scandal, a huge billion dollar plus scandal that the Catholic church attempted to cover up for years and years. It has been proven to be so. And FYI, they are called priests in the Episcopal church.

Protestant congregations and public schools have been hit just as hard or harder by sex scandals of the very same sort the Catholic Church is in the headlines for. The difference? Government institutions (including schools) enjoy protections limiting liability to well under $200K in most states. And the Protestant congregations seldome have even a small portion of the assets that Catholic diocese do.

Basically (1) there is less money to be had other places and (2) the headline-value of “sex scandal in EpiscoLutherMethoByterian Church - Arkansas Synod of the Reform of 1932” just does not sound half as good as “Catholic Sex Abuse Scandal” on front pages.

OF course given Rome’s pernacious and zealous adherence to what all Christians held as orthodox bleief on sexuality before 1930, it is understandable how detractors - annoyed by this - would curl their tows all the harder when She is embarassed by a VERY FEW wayward sons.

I think every SOB who did anything of this sort should be thrown out on their ear, and likewise any bishop who covered for them. But the fact that in a 1.3B+ church there are some sinners (even the most depraved) does not cause my faith to waiver in the slightest.

And, FYI, the Episopal church, when founded in the US, went by Protestant Episcopla Church USA (PECUSA). It certainly is NOT the case that ministers in said denomination have universally felt comfortable calling themselves priests.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Excuse me for being so bold sir but these FEW men you refer to are in your church’s own doctrine as those who are in the place of Christ behind the altar in the only church where the sacrements are trully celebrated, so before you go making excuses for your infallible church, you had better check the facts and the seriousness of the situation. The men that were many many more than the few you laid claim to have screwed up the lives of many good folks who put thier trust into the church and these so called men in the place of Christ. This makes me nausiated to put Christ into the same line as these priests.

So we don’t claim as priests those that have proven to definately be in the order of Judas?

 

[Chancellare]

Staying on course with this issue I still don’t believe that any one church can lay claim to being Christ’s only. After all, I seriously would doubt that he would lay claim to only one church and it be the one who condoned sexual abuse of children for decades and even centuries who has finally had to become honest with its parishioners about this grave travesty as over a billion dollars have been paid out in lawsuits.

There you go again!
Did your pastors teach mudslinging as a means to spread your denomination? This topic about sexual abuses has been studied and analyzed ad nauseam. The findings indicate the national average 2% of pedophilia incidence is fairly distributed across ALL religious and secular institutions in the American society. I can’t believe you are still stuck with the fallacy that this is a CATHOLIC malady.

You cannot use this without pointing three fingers back to yourself for every finger pointed to others.

 

[Chancellare]

Did you say ANY sin? I guess I would be interested to see what you may know about the huge child sex abuse scandal going on in the Episcopal church then because I have never heard of it.

How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the plank out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:4-5.

ALL Protestant denominations - 108 instances primarily 1992, with a few from earlier years and also 1993 and 1997.

Already posted separately that this charge of sexual abuse IS NOT a Catholic malady but an American societal phenomenon.

Since you asked for it, see the 108 documented cases of sexual abuse by Protestant Clergy.

catholicapologetics.net/apolo_49.htm

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You seem to know me quite well in such a small amount of time. Maybe you should become my shrink.

Save the facetious and sarcastic comments. They are not helpful. They are not welcome.

***Forum rules:

Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.***

None of us here are claiming to be your shrink - but as an ex-Evangelical’s (now Catholic) grandmother used to say “‘Judge not lest ye be judged’ says the Good Book, but it also says ‘by their fruits you will know them’ so I won’t be a judge, but I will be a fruit inspector!”

So on 4/1/2007 when I wrote:

Traveller - some basic netiquette dictates it is time to stand up or stand down.

In the scant 15 posts you have merrily spread accross CAF you have mostly written a sentence or two or three as to why you are NOT Catholic with gems like:

***Why does the Roman Catholic church really lack that zeal for fellowship and out reach?

---

***If faith alone were not true, then how could a man who sinned graveously his entire life be saved just breaths before death by our one and true savior himself? Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, not if you say a set number of Hail Mary’s and such maybe you will make it through purgatory. ***

***There are many reasons why I left Catholicism and social behavior is just merely one of the smaller reasons. True tradition and doctrine would be two much larger ones.

---

I’m really sorry that you look at it that way. If you really and truly believe that God wishes you to be guilt ridden your entire life, than I think unfortunately you have missed the boat.

My favorite barb being the most recent:

I left the church when I realized that the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!

And it makes it all the harder to see this comment as ANYTHING by disingenuous:

*** Very sad that we can’t consider each other at least somewhat in focus together.***

Traveler, if you want to discuss the Catholic Faith here great. If you want to discuss questions you had over matters that lead you to leave, very good. If you want to get a feel for Catholic sensibilities on certain matters beyond your parochial world-view of your individual experience, wonderful.

If you don’t share Catholic views - we can live with that. If you disagree with us and play nicely, that is spectacular - there is room for that. If you want to post thoughtful posts that are a little longer than three-sentences and have a back and forth dialogue rather than make broad claims like “the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!”, well let’s talk.

But to pop in and out of threads it begs the question:

Are you hear to discuss difference, and ask questions, or to troll the forum with snide comments about how Catholocism got this that and the other thing wrong, and after 34 years you saw the light and became an Anglican?

What are you here to do?

(To date no response) you had only written 15 posts. Today you are at 47.

On Good Friday - the most solemn day of the Christian calendar, you posted 15 comments, the majority of which were condescending to the Catholic Church… Well what gives?

Why do you seek out the Catholic Answers Forums to post attacks? You did not pick some neutral forum or blog - you sought out and registered for participation in a forum founded by and frequented by Catholics.

So forgive us for being skeptical, but if you continue to pop up to take swipes at the Catholic Church - a church you left - what are we to think???

If you have found spiritula solace and succor in the bosom of the branch of Anglicanism you have affiliated with, why look back? Who come here and be argumentitive or combatitive or disagreeable? If in fact you have found peace and the “sensible way” why is it your time and effort here seems to indicate such strong animosity towards unresolved issues?