Do you ever feel sorry for Judas Iscariot?

[redrosetea]

I just heard Fr Mitch Packwa say last night, that the church won’t say Judas was condemned to hell…we might draw some conclusions but that is all they are…the same with Hitler…we know what scripture warns about…and we should be careful we don’t even find ourselves in that postion

 

[debraran]

Yes, there is a lot of grey area. The apostles and others in Jesus’s time had trouble understanding him and his teachings…Mother Angelica once said they were a bit dense (she has to explain that to them not me!!) : ) Truthfully, they saw things in black and white, they would have a hard time understanding someones motives/feelings beyond what they saw.

I know true evil is scary…I’ve read articles by KKK members that said they would deliberately hunt for blacks to kill or torture in the South years ago…how did they justify that to God? I read chilling stories of Nazi guards that used Jewish babies as baseballs for fun…was that forgivable? Does a sociopath get a pass because he is mentally disturbed after murdering/torturing someone? It’s all in God’s hands who knows justice and things we don’t.
Judas wanted freedom for his people, but he wasn’t really evil…he felt remorse,something true evil doesn’t. If he could backtrack a few hours, he would have,I know it. But he had to do it, Peter had to deny him 3 times…Jesus said so. I think the example of the the two was made for us to see though…seek and you will find the shepard.

 

[redrosetea]

I don’t want anyone to misunderstand my last posting Fr Pacwa didn’t portray Hitler or Judas as sympathetic characters…he sort of said to connect the dots about what scripture teaches when you think about them

 

[jblake]

thistle;:

This stupidity is from the heretical Gospel of Judas which was not written by Judas but by an unknown more than 200 years after the death of Jesus.

a) We don’t have an accurate time frame as to when the Gospel of Judas was written;

b) The extant data implies that the theory that somebody had to play the role that Judas did, dates to the first century;

discussing about this means they should talk to a priest and get help!

There are roughly a dozen pericopes in the Gospels, for which there is both a primary interpretation, and a secondary interpretation that is opposite to that of the primary one. In all instances the secondary interpretation is the harder cross to bear.

xan

jonathon

 

[jblake]

debraran;:

I’ve read articles by KKK members that said they would deliberately hunt for blacks to kill or torture in the South years ago…how did they justify that to God?

Probably using the same theological justification that the Nederduitse Gereformeerde Kerk (? Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk?) (? Nederduitsch Hervormde Kerk) gebruik voor 1983, en Die Afrikaanse Protestantse Kerk nog gebruik.

xan

jonathon

 

[thistle]

a) We don’t have an accurate time frame as to when the Gospel of Judas was written;

b) The extant data implies that the theory that somebody had to play the role that Judas did, dates to the first century;

There are roughly a dozen pericopes in the Gospels, for which there is both a primary interpretation, and a secondary interpretation that is opposite to that of the primary one. In all instances the secondary interpretation is the harder cross to bear.

xan

jonathon

We know the Gospel of Judas is a Gnostic writing.
We know it was not written by Judas.
Even though the exact date is not known we know it was 150AD or later, long after all the apostles were dead.
We know the Gnostics were heretics.

Read St Iranaeus Against the Heresies.

 

[jblake]

thistle;:

We know the Gnostics were heretics.

Read St Iranaeus Against the Heresies.

Do you know when the first century ended?

Ponder at that answer, and then ponder on why Gnostics had partial control over the Catholic Church during the early second century.

xan

jonathon

 

[thistle]

Do you know when the first century ended?

Ponder at that answer, and then ponder on why Gnostics had partial control over the Catholic Church during the early second century.

xan

jonathon

150AD is mid second century.
By the way are you denying the Gnostics are heretics?

 

[jblake]

150AD is mid second century.

And at least 50 years, and probably closer to a century after the hypothesis that somebody had to play the role that Judas played was first proposed.

By the way are you denying the Gnostics are heretics?

Were it not for Gnostic Christians, you’d have neither a canon, nor a list of heresies.

Had the Gnostic Christians been more politically savvy, they would have been on the winning side, instead of simply being a major influence on thew theology of the side that won the political battles.

xan

jonathon

 

[Tracyms1974]

You pray for Judas you say. That made me wonder about purgatory. No one is really “damned” because of purgatory.

Actually what I’ve heard in church and other places is that yes, there is a Hell, but I think it’s kinda hard to go there. A person would literally have to WANT to go there to end up there. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do think this is the case. In other words, if a person does not want to go to Hell, then this may be indicitive of remorse and therefore that person has a good chance of getting into Purgatory. I think the only people who go to Hell are those who are completely obstinate in sin and have no remorse. The mentally ill don’t count because they don’t know any better - sort of.

Tracy

 

[NTOT]

While it’s theoretically possible, it seems extremely unlikely. Jesus said, “Better for him never to have been born.”

I think we may be pretty surprised who is or isn’t in heaven. It is probably much better to worry about whether we ourselves will one day be ‘worthy’.

I don’t know how much more catastrophically one can fall than by sellling Jesus for thirty pieces of silver.

How about receiving Him unworthily through reception of the Holy Eucharist while not in the state of grace? I think Jesus is able to forgive someone who sells Him for thirty pieces of silver. Is this very much unlike those of us who have ever remained silent, refused to speak up, or otherwise outright denied Christ when the appropriate occasion presented itself?

 

[NTOT]

Actually what I’ve heard in church and other places is that yes, there is a Hell, but I think it’s kinda hard to go there. A person would literally have to WANT to go there to end up there. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do think this is the case. In other words, if a person does not want to go to Hell, then this may be indicitive of remorse and therefore that person has a good chance of getting into Purgatory. I think the only people who go to Hell are those who are completely obstinate in sin and have no remorse. The mentally ill don’t count because they don’t know any better - sort of.

Tracy

That would mean almost nobody goes to hell except for a very few deranged who actually do want to go there. I can want a cake. I can want to go to heaven. I can not want to go to hell. I can want to steal a car. I can want to have an abortion. I can want to extort money. I can want to sleep in all the time instead of going to Mass. All at the same time. Will I go to Heaven? Probably not.

 

[debraran]

I’ve never heard a priest say that anyone who doesn’t want to go to hell, goes there. But how God judges, that capability is not in our brains.You just have to try to live your life as much as our Lord wants you too, but the guidance of your church. That though varies by religion. You can’t tell anyone who doesn’t have confession they are going to hell because their remorse wasn’t heard “outside of the box”. I remember saying to a priest in my teens, So, because I’m Catholic, I have to do this and that, I can’t die with mortal sin, etc. but someone else not taught that is okay? He looked at me and said he knew it sounded strict, but we have so many graces in our religion, etc. At that time, I balked and said I could see why some are either scrupulous or just leave. I’ve grown since then, but how our faith is taught, makes a BIG difference in how a Catholic grows in their faith.

I also think some forget Judas didn’t want Jesus arrested, he thought he would break free and Judas would get what he wanted, an earthly freedom. That’s why his remorse and hanging happened so soon after that…and only God knows if not under mental duress he would have wanted forgiveness, as with any suicide victim. I can’t see why he wouldn’t, he wasn’t an evil person, taking the money and trying to overflow the enemy another way…he couldn’t bare the fact that he did that to our savior, even if he couldn’t fully understand who Jesus was.
Jesus did want us to know though that his actions were wrong.

 

[redrosetea]

Remorse isn’t the same thing as repentance…Peter repented, Judas hung himself instead of trying to face his medicine and change his life…Remorse isn’t the same thing as changing your life

I just heard Mother Angelica speaking about this…If Judas would have had enough faith he would have acted as Peter did

One is a saint… the other …well ,he is certainly no saint that I ever heard of

 

[graceandglory]

Only about as often as I feel sorry for Hitler.

My son has a really hard time with this. He told me he doesn’t want to go to heaven if the likes of Hitler are there.

Kinda hard to respond to that. Who’d want to spend eternity with Hitler? Or your MIL for that matter?

 

[jmcrae]

Only about as often as I feel sorry for Hitler.

My son has a really hard time with this. He told me he doesn’t want to go to heaven if the likes of Hitler are there.

Kinda hard to respond to that. Who’d want to spend eternity with Hitler? Or your MIL for that matter?

Well, remind him that if Hitler is there, he has been converted, and cannot commit any sin.

Imagine if Hitler had become his best self - an artist, a poet, a philosopher? Imagine listening to someone with the oratorical power of Hitler, speaking about good things, and exhorting people to do good? That’s the Hitler we would meet in Heaven - not the bad one that we read about in the history books.

 

[debraran]

A lot of people have deep remorse and low self-esteem and don’t think they can be forgiven (for doing less than Judas in a sense) That’s why the church doesn’t judge, it’s up to God. If Hitler is in heaven, he paid his dues and anyone who doesn’t want to be with him, wouldn’t be there. (mother has said that often)
There are stories of guards being converted from the bible, sinners of all kinds, even Pilate…we’ll hopefully know one day. But Judas did kill him, whip him, beat him, laugh at him, sell his clothes etc. He also didn’t deny he knew him…if he can’t have a chance for forgiveness, than no one who commits suicide or isn’t Catholic has a chance…and that’s not true. Jesus, was dealing with simple people and he had to divide right from wrong without a lot of gray, but life is full of gray. No one is perfect. His discilples had trouble right to the end and resurrection quite “getting it”. We still don’t always see him and have a bit of “Thomas” in us.

I remember reading in a book, the Holy Cure’ of Ars(Saint John) telling a women that her husband who threw himself off a bridge was in heaven.She had been very distraught. In the seconds before death, he told her, Our Lady gave him a chance to repent. Similar stories have been told in religous books I’ve borrowed from my church library. I will NEVER be assured of salvation, too self-confident, that’s just me, but I will never put anyone else in hell. The best I can do is say, “Lord you know better than I the person’s heart and soul”.

I also don’t get the Hitler reference…Hitler might never have touched a Jewish person or “inferior” but he planned the demise of millions of people…Judas didn’t want Jesus to die, he was almost too intelligent, he saw what he could do and wanted him to do it for the people on earth. A heaven was not a concept most people grasped and that’s why the divide came later. But he must have loved him…I never would think of killing myself over someone I hated.

 

[hays1122]

That would mean almost nobody goes to hell except for a very few deranged who actually do want to go there. I can want a cake. I can want to go to heaven. I can not want to go to hell. I can want to steal a car. I can want to have an abortion. I can want to extort money. I can want to sleep in all the time instead of going to Mass. All at the same time. Will I go to Heaven? Probably not.

Some people here write about hitler being in heaven.
And yet you say,“Will I go to Heaven? Probably not.”
I’d say if the Catholic church teaches that hitler is or even “may” be in heaven,then you have nothing to worry about.
So that’s why all those priests committed those horrible crimes against children. Because if hitler is in heaven,they’ll be right there next to him partying.

 

[Tracyms1974]

That would mean almost nobody goes to hell except for a very few deranged who actually do want to go there. I can want a cake. I can want to go to heaven. I can not want to go to hell. I can want to steal a car. I can want to have an abortion. I can want to extort money. I can want to sleep in all the time instead of going to Mass. All at the same time. Will I go to Heaven? Probably not.

If you want to do something bad and then don’t end up doing it, then God actually gives you extra brownie points for that because you effectively resisted temptation. You never said anything about going through with the aforementioned desires. However, if somebody is a big time car thief and they not only want to steal cars but do it for a living, then they better repent of their sin and walk away from that whole lifestyle before they get shot or they shoot somebody. (Organized crime and violence always go hand in hand.) If they quit stealing cars then God will be happy and yes, they have a chance then to clean their soul in Purgatory and join the rest of the saints in Heaven. Really, those who turn away from committed sins do the same as those who turn away from non-committed sins in that they (finally) resist the devil’s temptation effectively. The only difference is that unfortunately those who sin, like the car thief, cause distress and problems in other people’s lives. (Those whose cars he/she stole are now without a car. Those who resist sin to begin with cause no problems for anybody.)

Tracy

 

[Whdevo]

Remorse isn’t the same thing as repentance…Peter repented, Judas hung himself instead of trying to face his medicine and change his life…Remorse isn’t the same thing as changing your life

I just heard Mother Angelica speaking about this…If Judas would have had enough faith he would have acted as Peter did

One is a saint… the other …well ,he is certainly no saint that I ever heard of

Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders."

(THis is what I mean when I say: “always go back to the source” … ).

God Bless

William