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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
I’m curious as to your interpretation of the word, " dignity " and how that word could not exist if their were no God ?
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schaeffer
Guest
Yes, I’m curious as well.
The whole “I don’t believe as you do so I’m going to tell you what it is you ACTUALLY believe, and what you cannot believe!”
Um…OK
“Without God my life is meaningless…therefore if you don’t believe in God your life must be meaningless as well! And don’t try to tell me otherwise, because you’re wrong!”
Um…OK
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BrunoMaria
Guest
As to many people - not just here - who say „I do fear death. I mostly fear it than not. And I feel I will grow even more afraid, the closer I get to it.“
Just remember Luke 12,20: God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life48 will be demanded back from you, but who will get what you have prepared for yourself?
„Meltzerboy“ wrote: … At the same time, however, the dead person is to be treated with the utmost dignity. The rituals of the mourning period in Judaism reflect that…
True. The women who went to Jesus’ grave tried to as well, but Jesus had resurrected already. I myself could not, with my son’s body, for I had agreed to organ-donation… no more to that. But you all here - if Jew or Christian and I agree, that this corps is absolutely NOT the person we mourn about. The person herself is in God’s hemisphere. The question remains: “What do we mourn about.” He or she is with God. Is it the loss of a beloved? Sort of selfish - ain’t it?
The corps - the body then, actually is sort of nothing. It’s by no means the person. When we leave our coat behind and walk on just as oneself - who would care about the coat?! We wouldn’t even look back on it. That’s why I said to my wife - this we walk behind to the grave is NOT our son. He is with God! That’s one of the reasons Jesus said to one of His deciples: “let the dead bury their dead”. Mt 8,22/Lk 9,60.
Human dignity is not linked tot he body and then corps, but tot he soul - and this soul is now with God.
Let me say a final word to Agnosticism, who pleads “I DON’T KNOW”:
But how can anyone NOT KNOW when the Bible - the most spread book in the world, tells explicitly? When God in the Old Testament revealed Himself and let His Son Jesus Christ reveal Himself even extensively and personally. What then can one „NOT KNOW“.
Far more true it would be, if Gnostics would admit like atheists - "I don’t want to know and refuse all about God!“
Is it then a wonder or lacking love when under such circumstances God refuses this person in spite of His love? God in His love offered all of this refuser’s life His love. But there is a limit even to God’s love. It is terribly insulting, when we told something important to a friend, and he than claims he doesn’t know because he can’t know it it’s true.
Yours
Bruno
Just remember Luke 12,20: God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life48 will be demanded back from you, but who will get what you have prepared for yourself?
„Meltzerboy“ wrote: … At the same time, however, the dead person is to be treated with the utmost dignity. The rituals of the mourning period in Judaism reflect that…
True. The women who went to Jesus’ grave tried to as well, but Jesus had resurrected already. I myself could not, with my son’s body, for I had agreed to organ-donation… no more to that. But you all here - if Jew or Christian and I agree, that this corps is absolutely NOT the person we mourn about. The person herself is in God’s hemisphere. The question remains: “What do we mourn about.” He or she is with God. Is it the loss of a beloved? Sort of selfish - ain’t it?
The corps - the body then, actually is sort of nothing. It’s by no means the person. When we leave our coat behind and walk on just as oneself - who would care about the coat?! We wouldn’t even look back on it. That’s why I said to my wife - this we walk behind to the grave is NOT our son. He is with God! That’s one of the reasons Jesus said to one of His deciples: “let the dead bury their dead”. Mt 8,22/Lk 9,60.
Human dignity is not linked tot he body and then corps, but tot he soul - and this soul is now with God.
Let me say a final word to Agnosticism, who pleads “I DON’T KNOW”:
But how can anyone NOT KNOW when the Bible - the most spread book in the world, tells explicitly? When God in the Old Testament revealed Himself and let His Son Jesus Christ reveal Himself even extensively and personally. What then can one „NOT KNOW“.
Far more true it would be, if Gnostics would admit like atheists - "I don’t want to know and refuse all about God!“
Is it then a wonder or lacking love when under such circumstances God refuses this person in spite of His love? God in His love offered all of this refuser’s life His love. But there is a limit even to God’s love. It is terribly insulting, when we told something important to a friend, and he than claims he doesn’t know because he can’t know it it’s true.
Yours
Bruno
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exnihilo
Guest
I experience this myself, but without the consolation of a near death experience. Occasionally I just have this shock of fear come over me. The fear seems to be more of annihilation. I’m afraid I will cease to exist. This is ironic because I remember as a child hearing ‘world without end’ in church. I thought of living forever and that frightened me. I thought I’d be bored. But now I fear ceasing to exist.
I don’t seem to fear continuing to exist but failing to gain Heaven. It is not that I’m presumptive. It is just that my shock of fear is ceasing to exist. It is not that I lack faith. I firmly believe from logic alone that their is a God in the sense of that which is existence itself, with causal power and who is personal. I firmly believe in Jesus Christ. But when I say firmly that doesn’t mean that sometimes fear, which may be considered irrational, overcomes me and I seem to doubt.
As to the cause of the fear it could be, at least in part, due to several things. I really have a desire to know. I enjoy philosophy and pondering the big questions. I have a certain amount of skepticism which drives me. I also have a pride of intellect. I want very much to be right. But I’m not God. I don’t and can’t know everything. I can’t have perfect understanding. Maybe these shocks are moments for me to learn humility. Whenever they come from when I have them they are very unpleasant and can be terrifying.
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CRATUS
Guest
Yes. I am afraid of dying a tragic, painful, untimely death.
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ChainBreaker
Guest
If metaphysical naturalism is true then your thoughts and feelings have no real significance or meaning. Its just a chemically induced fantasy in your head, no different from a person having a delusional belief in God.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the next time you wake up in the morning feeling depressed and try to convince yourself that your existence is worth something or means something, please remind yourself that you’re lying to yourself - thats assuming that you have freewill.
I am yet to meet an atheist who truly accepts the logical consequences of their atheism.
meltzerboy
New member
I always thought Christians, perhaps more for Catholics than for (some) Protestants or Orthodox, feared hell more than they feared the annihilation of the soul (and body) or oblivion. The latter, I thought, was the main fear of Jews, who are not raised with the idea they might wind up in hell. So your own fear of oblivion somewhat surprises me, even though I realize people are people whatever their religious roots.
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ChainBreaker
Guest
There is an alternative to metaphysical naturalism, and that is to take a leap of faith that there is in fact a meaning purpose and value to your existence.
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Bradski
Guest
I’m going out for dinner tonight.
If you like I will do my best not to enjoy the company of some very good friends. I will try not to feel proud of my daughter when she arrives and how she is raising her son. I’ll dismiss the tightness in my throat when my grandson hugs me.
I will overlook the feelings I have for my wife of many decades. I will ignore the fact that I am missing my son and his partner and they’ve only been overseas a few days. I will treat the sheer unadulterated pleasure of my recently arrived brother’s company as a mere frippery.
I will promise not to enjoy that bottle of red I was planning to take with me or the excellent food we’ll be having. I certainly will do my best to ignore the great weather and the beachfront location and the fact that I don’t have to go to work tomorrow but will enjoy a great day at the cricket with my son in law.
If it will confirm your beliefs, I will not be amused by anything anyone says or be interested in any topic they bring up. I will refuse to smile, let alone laugh out loud. After all, none of it has any significance.
And if I should find myself sitting alone on the deck tonight with a glass of good whisky, looking at the stars and listening to the surf in the distance, I won’t contemplate how lucky I have been and how lucky I still am.
But sometimes, and it may sneak up on me tonight, because I am in such a good mood, it will come to me what I have and I will realise that I can’t have it forever. And if Caz comes out looking for me and says maybe it’s time for bed, I’ll have to pretend to have something in my eye.
I don’t fear death at all but gee, you don’t half miss a lot of things when you’re gone.
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schaeffer
Guest
Thanks! You beat me to it. I was so busy being meaningless yesterday that I was unable to get back here to partake in this meaningless discussion. My pointless bags of chemicals (ie family) required some meaningless interaction.
Good thing I wasn’t wasting my pointless time trying to logically convince every non human thing, and human thing that believes (well deludes themselves with) material naturalism that they are pointless.
Stupid tree, out there photosynthesizing…oh how it deludes itself.
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schaeffer
Guest
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exnihilo
Guest
In my tradition there is an attitude that those who die and are Christian will obtain Heaven. There is quite a bit of universal salvation and indifferentism in mainline protestantism which I was raised in. So in my experience Hell is not thought of much as a reality. However I personally do believe Hell is something to be feared.
For me the fear is more of a sudden shock. It is more of a sudden anxiety. It does not come from my beliefs but from doubts that enter my mind. It is more a realization of what annihilation would mean. I don’t know what others experience but I have a fair amount of skeptical thoughts that enter my mind. It is an area I’ve had to grow in by learning how better to deal with negative or skeptical thoughts.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I for one fear hell more than the annihilation of my soul.
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Partinobodycula
Guest
Death is that which gives life both its meaning and its mercy.
The greatest accomplishments of men are measured by that which they have overcome, and that which they have sacrificed.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
The fullness of life is measured not by what it gives us, but by what it requires of us, perseverance and sacrifice.
The meaning of life is that we persevere, the mercy of life is that it ends.
The greatest accomplishments of men are measured by that which they have overcome, and that which they have sacrificed.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
The fullness of life is measured not by what it gives us, but by what it requires of us, perseverance and sacrifice.
The meaning of life is that we persevere, the mercy of life is that it ends.
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ChainBreaker
Guest
Without God life has no meaning.
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ChainBreaker
Guest
Spoken like somebody in denial.
Don’t worry; If Metaphysical Naturalism is true it was all Meaningless to begin with.
You have no daughter. That object you call a daughter, that thing you give value to, is nothing more than a bag of chemicals and other objects and it has deluded you into giving “it” value, so “it” can survive and replicate for no meaningful reason or end. You are nothing more than a replicating object and you are aware of it.
Sorry to break it to you. But if you was a rational Atheist you would ignore every meaningful experience you ever had in your life and accept that they are nothing more than chemical delusions. In fact you would sit completely still so as to give no meaning to life by trying to stay alive. You would sit still until you starved to death because you are truly devoted to reason and you are not interested in being moved by irrational or meaningless forces. After all you gave up on God because the information or lack there of was not rational enough for you to act on, and the emotional reasons for believing in God was not a rational basis for you to act on. So why act on irrational feelings and emotions about other people. Forget careers, legacy, family, purpose, for all these things are just plain delusional.
I have never met a truly rational atheist. They are only brave enough to deny God’s existence… Any other delusion that they can control and have serve them they embrace with welcome arms.
Pretty ironic don’t you think?
meltzerboy
New member
“The mercy of life is that it ends.” What does this part of your statement mean exactly? Does it mean that we can better appreciate, treasure, and make good use of life because we know it has limits?
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
Not really. I suspect I’ll be more concerned when I have a reason to think it’s a bit closer, but at the moment I’m plenty happy living with the knowledge that I’ll die, but not a huge fear of it.
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
Just FYI, you can act in line with your emotions/desires/feelings even if you know they’re all hardwired into you. I know that hunger and love of my family, and everything in between, have their origins in evolution. I can still act according to them just fine- I don’t need a spiritual overlord to validate me.
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ChainBreaker
Guest
You are welcome to act on your meaningless impulses, and you are certainly free to blame them for your irrational choices.
God is required however if your choices are to be considered meaningful and rational.
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