Do you feel anxiety about the decline of religion?

[Don_L]

The Church in General Spread Literature as well, The Catholic Church used Latin, from the Dead Roman Empire, the Germanic Kingdoms Adopted Vernacular (similar to Romance languages, Medievalish) If The Church didn’t use Latin, then many Latin Works, such as The Epic Poems. Would Never have been copied, the Catholic Church did much to revive Literature.

Now Science, such as Galileo’s discovery of us revolving around the sun. Was dismissed by the Church (but note the Church did give a some-what Recent Apology). Do you think the Church is impervious to our own lack of knowledge? The Holy Spirit guides us away from Doctrinal Error. Not Scientific Theories. That was our Own fault, we’re all Human as are you, Agreed?

That Galileo thingy again? As I recall it - the scientists of the day (consensus) supported the Church position (or the other way around) and though Galileo was right about some things he was dead wrong about others.

 

[chris_molter]

My "Go and read some history that isn’t polluted by piety! " still stands.

Not really. History, if not polluted by piety, is polluted by something else. There is no perfectly objective pristine source.

Obviously some prefer certain flavors of pollution to others. Oddly enough it almost always coincides with the reader’s preconceptions. Go figure.

Anyway, in my experience it’s a hellova lot harder to find history books written from a Catholic perspective than a Protestant or secular one. But knowing an author’s predispositions makes reading it more interesting. Kind of like Herodotus.

 

[paul_c]

Most of you would do well to take points concerning history advanced by Gottle and Dameedna far more seriously. There is such naivety and ignorance on this thread as makes me more convinced than ever that leaving the church was wisdom, let alone that I am thankful and joyful about it. If there is a sacrament of confirmation, you all have bestowed it on me and I am deeply grateful.

Why are you so angry at the church and why take it out on us. Why are you calling us ignorant and why do you think you know more than people you have never met? Is is because we dont’ agree with you? And how do you justify your claims that the church held back learning? Lets go through your examples:

It is true that in the middle East and India, and in China progress was being made in fields clamped down on by the church in Europe. Zero was invented,

This source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_(number, suggests that the number zero was discussed for centuries in both the east and west. No where does it even hint that the theory of zero was in any way opposed by the church. Why would it be.

the circumference of the Earth calculated,

windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/the_universe/uts/eratosthenes_calc_earth_size.html&fr=t&edu=high
the circumference of the earth was calculated by a greek, long before the time of Christ. Obviously the church did not suppress it:

movable type used,

this is what wikipedia says about the historical impact of the printing press versus wooden movable tupe in East Asia.
Printing as developed in East Asia did not make use of a printing press as in Gutenberg’s case. Although the invention of movable type in China and Korea preceded Gutenberg’s printing press, the impact of East Asian movable type printing presses was not as influential as it was in Western European society. This was likely due to the enormous amount of labour involved in manipulating the thousands of porcelain tablets, or in the case of Korea, metal tablets, required by the use of written Chinese characters. Nevertheless, hundreds of thousands of books, on subjects ranging from Confucian Classics to science and mathematics, were printed using the older technology of woodblock printing, creating the world’s first print culture.[8].

In contrast, the impact of Gutenberg’s printing press in Europe was comparable to the development of writing, the invention of the alphabet or the Internet, as far as its effects on society. Just as writing did not replace speaking, printing did not achieve a position of total dominance. Handwritten manuscripts continued to be produced, and the different graphic modes of communication continued to influence each other.

metallurgy and the sciences advanced

this is to vague to discuss

, gender equality,

explain how the relative gender equality is better in the middle east or Asia than it is in the West.

astounding architecture

This is a matter of taste. The church built some pretty impressive churches.

, canal systems and dams, all these things happened centuries earlier there than in Europe because of the brakes put on thought by the church.

Canal systems and dams happened in both the east and west before the Christian era. The church certainly didn’t suppress civil works.

And that is the least of it. In those areas the philosophy of understanding the actual relationship of God and Man were advanced and incorporated while the church was promoting a guilt ridden duality that enhanced the feeling of separation of Man from his God. Go and read some history that isn’t polluted by piety! Go love yourself enough to THINK!!! In the name of the God you ignorantly worship, please do so!

Have you read Augustine or Aquinas or even Pope Benedict XVI?
he church teaches the truth. Guilt is your consience telling you that you have sinned against God or man. If you have guilt, you need to look inward, not outward.

Things I have read on here make me wonder if anyone, save a few, even opens a newspaper or watches the news with other than the kind of polarized lens that only allows you to project on to the world your habitual primitive notions about the world and yourselves. For instance, heres’s a good one: "*… the growing open hostility toward religion (the closer to Catholicism, the worse the hostility) constitutes a great trial of faith, and, ultimately (perhaps I am being paranoid!), I fear an old-timey persecution is a’comin’. And that - despite all the saints that get made during persecutions - would suck. I don’t want to be a martyr! * Where in this person’s mind are the current religious genocides being carried out, not to mention those throughout history???

What I have read on here is more of an indictment of the American people than anything else. These posts are proof positive of the “Dumbing down of America.” The lack of critical thinking, even according to Catholic dogma, the ignorance, and bigotry is astonishing! How can allegedly mature people hold to the drivel put forth on these posts??? How is it different from the geocentricism that the church held to for so long? Instead of the Earth, you have put Rome there, mistaking it for your precious selves. Wake up and prove for yourselves the God of Love!

So now you are indicting the American people as dumb, in addition to Catholics. Take a step back. Your just lashing out at everyone now. There is no point in bashing people indescriminately. We get it , you are angry with the Catholic Church. Do you even know why?

 

[PJM]

=EphelDuath;5491311]It seems as if developed countries, foremost, are being critically hit by the growth of secularism. The traditional worldview of Judeo-Christianity in Europe and North America is becoming viewed as “bigoted,” “medieval,” and “naive” by our younger generations.

I’ve not heard about it much on CAF, but is this trend reversible? Am I the only one who seems to be worried?

***I am not so much “anxious” as I am deeply concerned specifically for fallen away catholics.

The specific point of my concern is the issue of lack of teaching and example by so many Bishops, priest and religious. That 12 years, three Presidentail elections could have in excess of 50% of professed Catholics vote party line NOT Conscience is a sad commenraty of the state of the Catholic Church in america. The second largest group of christians in America is fallen away catholics.

Keenly aware that Satan is winning this battle; I find great comfort knowing in knowing that He loses thee War. [Mt. 16:18]

What can be done?

Know what we belief and why.

Practice our Faith visibily and piosly

Share our beliefs in Charity at every opportunity. and

Pray, Pray, Pray!***

 

[paul_c]

***I am not so much “anxious” as I am deeply concerned specifically for fallen away catholics.

The specific point of my concern is the issue of lack of teaching and example by so many Bishops, priest and religious. That 12 years, three Presidentail elections could have in excess of 50% of professed Catholics vote party line NOT Conscience is a sad commenraty of the state of the Catholic Church in america. The second largest group of christians in America is fallen away catholics.

Keenly aware that Satan is winning this battle; I find great comfort knowing in knowing that He loses thee War. [Mt. 16:18]

What can be done?

Know what we belief and why.

Practice our Faith visibily and piosly

Share our beliefs in Charity at every opportunity. and

Pray, Pray, Pray!***

Satan is NOT winning this battle. Where this is struggle, there is increased devotion.
your advice is good.

 

[Kaninchen]

I can’t help but feel that this is all really a kind of shadow war - the problem being faced is not atheism but indifference, not hatred of religion but “religion is a (mainly harmless) eccentricity”.

Not only that, I think you could say exactly the same about atheism and that both religion and atheism were stronger when there seemed to be a battle between them that people vaguely cared about. Now, growingly, they don’t care - except as an entertainment, for example ‘Atheism as a media event’ (like what could be described as ‘The Dawkins Road Show’).

 

[paulonei]

And that the human body was being studied in the middle east, while christians refused to cut open a human body to discover it’s contents because it would be an attempt to divine God’s secrets?
Cheers

You should read at least some articles in Wikipedia:

Ronald Numbers states that misconceptions such as “the Church prohibited autopsies and dissections during the Middle Ages”, “the rise of Christianity killed off ancient science”, and “the medieval Christian church suppressed the growth of natural philosophy” are examples of widely popular myths that still pass as historical truth, although they are not supported by current historical research.

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages)

Why do you not stop spreading lies ?

“… Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

The Church is Truth.

 

[Contarini]

" but it’s only fair to point out that you are hardly approaching this from a neutral point of view." I appologize, Contarini, I should follow your sterling example of that.

I was not claiming any such thing. But then, I wasn’t the one telling people to go avoid material from a particular perspective. I know that I’m very far from neutral. That’s why I do my best to expose myself to all kinds of “pollutions” in my reading

If you were aware of your own lack of neutrality, you would deliberately seek out works with biases different from your own.

Neutrality is not the answer. It’s a false goal. The answer is to be open to perspectives with which you disagree, and to be aware of your own biases so that you are not totally controlled by them.

My "Go and read some history that isn’t polluted by piety! " still stands.

Why? You haven’t explained why it’s a good approach to avoid pious perspectives, rather than reading all perspectives as much as possible.

Edwin

 

[ML561]

Grace and peace be with you. Please remember the words of the Eucharistic Prayer…“Protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Undue worrying will not serve us well, in fact, giving way to this fear may just be what the devil wants us to do. Remember the words of Pope John Paul II, “Be Not Afraid!”

I also heard a great saying from a friend “If you pray, why worry, and if you worry, why pray?”

Also, what do you mean by the “decline of religion?” That seems to me a very broad term. If you are referring to a decline in the practice of Catholicism, I personally have not seen it. In my city , we receive hundreds of adult converts every year and I don’t know how many infants and children who are baptized. In my parish alone, Masses are celebrated four times on Sunday and twice on weekdays, and many people attend. (There are more than 40 Catholic churches in Omaha, Nebraska.)

Yes, we do have the world to contend with, with all its empty promises, but it was always thus. We just know more about it because of the speed of communication. I truly do not believe, as many seem to, that the world is worse now than it ever has been. We are still dealing with the same old original sins.

I’m getting a bit off the subject here, but maybe this will help put things in perspective:

A stone engraving was once found from ancient Greece, presumed to have been made centuries before the birth of Christ. It said (I am paraphrasing because I can’t remember the exact words): “These are bad times. Children no longer obey their parents, people have forgotten to worship, they do not want to work but spend their time in idleness…” well, you all get the picture. May the peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Detales]

Contarini,

I appreciate the stand you are taking for your beliefs. I know it well, I was a very zealous and sincere Catholic, devoted to the Church, Pope, the Saints. That is all well and good, and works exceptionally well within its own “culture.” For me that culture started to break apart when the questions I started asking from the basis of my own rather thorough knowledge of the faith. Then one day I saw something in film club, a group of us who were interested in going beyond even the rich academic offerings of our Catholic school, We were a group with some initiative, I guess, All of us went on to do very well in our fields.

What we saw, and what deeply moved me, was a documentary about the Ituri Pygmies in the Congo. The description of their social interactions led me to conclude that they might be the sanest group of people I’d ever encountered. But what almost knocked me off my seat, there in that Catholic sanctuary, was that these people worshiped a God who was born of a virgin, was wise at a young age, had a public life which included many miracles, and he was crucified, died, and rose again from the dead.

These people, to the best ability of the scholars encountering them to determine, had never had contact with christianists of any description. It was not Jesus whom they worshiped. they were surprised that people they didn’t know knew the story of their God but had for him a different name. That made me exceedingly curious. It took me along time to find out what was going on. It was a marvelous and wondrous journey away from belief.

What really made me turn course was that I had a remarkable transformational experience of my own. It completely altered/altared my life. Of course, everyone thought I had gone mad, and even recommended I see a shrink. Subsequent events showed that not only was I fine, I had increased capacity. but it took me years to adjust.

Part of why it took me so long was that, true to form, the resources I had available to me through and as the Church did not directly address my dilemma, nor the perfectly sane and logical questions surrounding it. In utter frustration I looked elsewhere. Eureka! Though I tried some different Eastern ways, none fully addressed my question either, though one came close. Then, while explaining, or trying to, my cosmological understanding to someone in a counseling session, the person said “You have to meet a man I know.”

I met that man after hearing him give an astounding spontaneous lecture on the nature of God, Love, and Man. I could not believe my ears. He was, to my best perception, cohesively speaking at three levels of meaning at least. This is consistent with the Teaching language used at the time and region of Jesus. On meeting this man in person, he asked me to sit as one of a group of others around him. I listened as he spontaneously spoke a poem that answered many question I had had since my transformational experience. He did not know me then, nor had anyone told him about me save that I was interested in meeting him after the lecture.

Now thirty odd some years after meeting him, I can say that he was someone who spoke his walk. He went about doing good. He was consulted by Jesuit scholars who were at an impasse, and by Mother Theresa, who’s assistant didn’t want to leave. He had the ability to elevate the understanding of anyone of any religion who came to him with sincere questions. Teachers of many descriptions form the East came to him as well, many not understanding how it was possible for him to Teach what they understood as “Living Vedanta” in English, a language known for its dualisms. One Buddhist nu told him that what he was giving had not been given in her tradition by a living teacher in two thousand years. It became very clear to me that wherever from he was speaking, it was a a place before the adementization of religions had taken hold of Truth and dogmatized it into a system. And, in my opinion, I saw what would constitute “miracles.”

One of the chief things I learned, Contarini, was that what I had understood as Catholicism is a veil over the actual Teaching attributed to Jesus. And the unveiled teaching is not for everyone, by any means. The whole New Age thing is a travesty of what in fact is a living and ancient Way of Understanding. In fact, it is over 5000 years old. In fact, if I asked you who I was talking about when I went through the points of significance starting with the Annunciation and ending in the Resurrections, You would answer Jesus. And you would be right. But you would also be right if you named a surprisingly large number of other crucified saviours as well.

And it will not be sufficient to say that these were only similar stories, or foreshadowings. That would be like a fundamentalist saying that dinosaur bones were put there by God to test our faith. No. What is going on is that there has always been and always will be an exoteric version, such as Catholicism, and an esoteric version, as the Way of Transformation that is ancient and honored by the Saints and Sages of the Ages. It puts “… Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” however sincerely quoted, into an entirely different perspective and dynamic than is commonly understood.

Ant that is why I recommend, despite your obvious sincerity and piety, that you read a more non-pious explanation of how things got how they are. It is because, generally speaking, we have been lied to on several fronts, the above being only one portion of the rather unsavory stew we are now eating. And as long as we don’t all get on the same page, it will get worse. If you lived next door, I would invite you over to look at some interesting documents and photographs. This is not a game. But it is to people who need you to believe certain things.

I am not talking here about a conspiracy, but more like a business plan. And I am meeting more and more individuals who are saying, “OK, lets talk.” It is not to destroy faith, but t elevate one’s understanding of God to a more inclusive state of awareness. As we have seen, faith will only go so far. After more than 1700 years, the Catholic Church is only 1/6th of the world population. And we now know of more than 300 exoplanets, so we may yet find someone out there. How will the Church proselytize them?

I’m only asking for some critical thinking in this matter beyond our emotional investment in something we feel we have a stake in. That is drama; having a stake in something. It is, in fact, far more stable, secure, and Real than the picture we are asked to put faith in.

Personally, I care not a whit if you believe any of this or not, or think I’m bonkers or not. I went and found out for myself. I own my knowledge and am responsible for my reckoning. And what I see is not different from what has been said for these five millennia or more by the Saints and Sages, including Jesus. I have not been deceived.

 

[bmadamsberry]

Citations, please.
The reason I ask is that, while everything you said is well and good… what basis does it have? Zip.
To compare Jesus to a “surprisingly large number of other crucified saviours” is laughable. Oh, true, the Jesus Narrative does have some similarities, but it really means nothing. We could compare each other’s life narratives and I’m sure that we would find many similarities. We both went to school. We both experianced the Catholic Faith. We were both born from a mother’s womb. We both lived in the same country. And yet we are so vastly different. False analogy- easy to make and annoying as ****. So, yes, I can say that they are similar and whatnot, because you again use a VERY loose and weak analogy when comparing it to a Fundamentalist and fossils.
This “teacher” that talked to you, that had an “impromtu” speech sounds like he knows his schemes. I had a high school friend whose father was a conartist. Your “teacher” sounds like he did the things that my friends father used to do. He has a generic speech that isn’t very specific and nice and broad. Furthermore he reads you, the way you walk, talk, look, to try and see what he might also fit into his speech. Please… give me a break.
In reference to the Catholic Church being a veil over Jesus’ true teachings… I have 2,000 years of scholarship behind me, of men and women that knew Christ, knew the people that interacted with him personally, or who had excellent manuscripts, what comprises the Bible, to look at, research, and contemplate.
Because you did not comment on what happened to you, I cannot address that. But I have a feeling that if I knew what it was, I could figure out what got screwed up and why your “questions” weren’t answered by the Church.

“Ant that is why I recommend, despite your obvious sincerity and piety, that you read a more non-pious explanation of how things got how they are. It is because, generally speaking, we have been lied to on several fronts, the above being only one portion of the rather unsavory stew we are now eating.” I agree. Everything you just told me about your “journey” left a very bitter taste in my mouth.
Please don’t bring “300 exoplanets” into this. I mean… really? The question “HOw will the Church proselytize them” is pointless… because there is no such thing.

“I’m only asking for some critical thinking in this matter beyond our emotional investment in something we feel we have a stake in. That is drama; having a stake in something. It is, in fact, far more stable, secure, and Real than the picture we are asked to put faith in.”
But you also have a stake in it, do you not? Emotions are existant in any conversation. You can’t get rid of them because you’re talking about what people think and believe. To think that you can is ignorance.

“I have not been deceived.” Deceived, lied to, pointed in the wrong direction. Yeah… they pretty much fit.

Before you posted this, I thought that while your history and facts were off about the Catholic Church, at least you had a slightly level head on you and were at least thinking critically. Now I see that you have no clue what’s going on. I don’t know if it’s what you’ve been taught, if it’s that experiance that you had that led you down the wrong path, or if you’re just senile, but you have got to wake up!

 

[Detales]

How very Catholic of you. There is little doubt in my mind that if Jesus taught again, you wold be in the mob screaming for His crucifiction.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi Detales,

Sorry for budding into your conversaion with Contarini - but I wanted to say that your story of your conversion is very interesting. I would love to hear more.

What I don’t understand, though, is why these ideas of yours aren’t compatible with Roman Catholicism. The teachings of the church are very deep and go way beyond the literal - the saints have spent 2000 years expanding on the significance of Christ’s story.

I’m curious, how many other examples of simlar-to-Christ saviours did you find in other religions?

Neil

p.s. googling isn’t turning up anything about this religion of the Ituri pygmies - do you have a link?

Contarini,

I appreciate the stand you are taking for your beliefs. I know it well, I was a very zealous and sincere Catholic, devoted to the Church, Pope, the Saints. That is all well and good, and works exceptionally well within its own “culture.” For me that culture started to break apart when the questions I started asking from the basis of my own rather thorough knowledge of the faith. Then one day I saw something in film club, a group of us who were interested in going beyond even the rich academic offerings of our Catholic school, We were a group with some initiative, I guess, All of us went on to do very well in our fields.

What we saw, and what deeply moved me, was a documentary about the Ituri Pygmies in the Congo. The description of their social interactions led me to conclude that they might be the sanest group of people I’d ever encountered. But what almost knocked me off my seat, there in that Catholic sanctuary, was that these people worshiped a God who was born of a virgin, was wise at a young age, had a public life which included many miracles, and he was crucified, died, and rose again from the dead.

…

 

[bmadamsberry]

Christ has no need to come to Earth to teach again. I couldn’t be shouting for his crucifixtion because that is not the chosen form of execution today. Furthermore I don’t get into the whole mob thing. It doesn’t interest me. I stay away from mobs and angry farmers with pitch forks. It’s all too much screaming and fire torches and stuff.
I wouldn’t mind knowing from where you pulled the idea that I would be in the mob (besides your bum where you seem to pull a lot of things out of, like your “facts”). Let’s see, though, who would be in that mob with me? Surely many Muslims would, as well as Jews and Christians. Atheists would also, because there is no G-d and so we should put a man that claims to be to death, especially for creating such a fuss against the establishment. But where would you be? Surely not defending him, because he is after all just a man and not the Son of God. Hmmm… maybe you would be John. Because your eyes are, after all, so more open than mine. You, after all, are the only one to question your faith. You, after all, are the only one who has looked at other religious beliefs, has researched Jesus, and you, after all, are the only unbiased, free thinking, impartial human being (there are 300 exoplanets that might have someone like yourself) around. Oh… wait… that doesn’t describe St. John at all.
With that said, and the point hopefully not missed, I noticed that you didn’t answer my overall question… What is your basis? I’m here, LOOK! Tell me about this “teacher” that you met. Go ahead, I’m listening. I’m a religion major, and so I would love to find out and study this new religion that is the Truth, and that, though seeming oddly identical, is not a New Age belief. However, please tell me about him with a message to my Inbox, because these fellow Catholics probably don’t want to hear it.
I look forward to your message inspiring me about this “teacher”.

And for the rest of you… please pray for my patience and anger. As you can see, it sometimes gets the better of me. Love you all.

 

[Detales]

bmadamsberry, go see a thread called Tolle 2 and really get your steam up. Bon Chance! All I meant was that your dismisive attitude is the same as what allowed such a purported event to happen 2K years ago. But don’t worry, it may not have.

Neil, I’m going out the door to water at my sister’s and shop for my Mom. I will get back to you. But in the mean time, see if you can find Zeitgeist, the Movie and watch at least part 1. You can also get a copy of Tom Harpur’s The Pagan Christ. Also look into the first 300 years of the Church’s history from an outside perspective and ask why there was so much book burning by early “christians.”

I agree with you about the compatability idea, especially with Augustine; it is there, but as I said, very veiled for the public. There is a bit about that at Tolle 2 as well. If you find a book on Amazon called Basic Self Knowledge by Harry Benjamin, you can read the intro material and see a bit of what I am getting at.

Thanks for both of your interest.

 

[paul_c]

Contarini,

Part of why it took me so long was that, true to form, the resources I had available to me through and as the Church did not directly address my dilemma, nor the perfectly sane and logical questions surrounding it. In utter frustration I looked elsewhere. Eureka! Though I tried some different Eastern ways, none fully addressed my question either, though one came close. Then, while explaining, or trying to, my cosmological understanding to someone in a counseling session, the person said “You have to meet a man I know.”

I met that man after hearing him give an astounding spontaneous lecture on the nature of God, Love, and Man. I could not believe my ears. He was, to my best perception, cohesively speaking at three levels of meaning at least. This is consistent with the Teaching language used at the time and region of Jesus. On meeting this man in person, he asked me to sit as one of a group of others around him. I listened as he spontaneously spoke a poem that answered many question I had had since my transformational experience. He did not know me then, nor had anyone told him about me save that I was interested in meeting him after the lecture.

Now thirty odd some years after meeting him, I can say that he was someone who spoke his walk. He went about doing good. He was consulted by Jesuit scholars who were at an impasse, and by Mother Theresa, who’s assistant didn’t want to leave. He had the ability to elevate the understanding of anyone of any religion who came to him with sincere questions. Teachers of many descriptions form the East came to him as well, many not understanding how it was possible for him to Teach what they understood as “Living Vedanta” in English, a language known for its dualisms. One Buddhist nu told him that what he was giving had not been given in her tradition by a living teacher in two thousand years. It became very clear to me that wherever from he was speaking, it was a a place before the adementization of religions had taken hold of Truth and dogmatized it into a system. And, in my opinion, I saw what would constitute “miracles.”

And it will not be sufficient to say that these were only similar stories, or foreshadowings. That would be like a fundamentalist saying that dinosaur bones were put there by God to test our faith. No. What is going on is that there has always been and always will be an exoteric version, such as Catholicism, and an esoteric version, as the Way of Transformation that is ancient and honored by the Saints and Sages of the Ages. It puts “… Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” however sincerely quoted, into an entirely different perspective and dynamic than is commonly understood.

Ant that is why I recommend, despite your obvious sincerity and piety, that you read a more non-pious explanation of how things got how they are. It is because, generally speaking, we have been lied to on several fronts, the above being only one portion of the rather unsavory stew we are now eating. And as long as we don’t all get on the same page, it will get worse. If you lived next door, I would invite you over to look at some interesting documents and photographs. This is not a game. But it is to people who need you to believe certain things.

I am not talking here about a conspiracy, but more like a business plan. And I am meeting more and more individuals who are saying, “OK, lets talk.” It is not to destroy faith, but t elevate one’s understanding of God to a more inclusive state of awareness. As we have seen, faith will only go so far. After more than 1700 years, the Catholic Church is only 1/6th of the world population. And we now know of more than 300 exoplanets, so we may yet find someone out there. How will the Church proselytize them?

I’m only asking for some critical thinking in this matter beyond our emotional investment in something we feel we have a stake in. That is drama; having a stake in something. It is, in fact, far more stable, secure, and Real than the picture we are asked to put faith in.

Personally, I care not a whit if you believe any of this or not, or think I’m bonkers or not. I went and found out for myself. I own my knowledge and am responsible for my reckoning. And what I see is not different from what has been said for these five millennia or more by the Saints and Sages, including Jesus. I have not been deceived.

Detales,
This post has two things in it which I find very disturbing. The first is that you attack Catholicism and religion in general without a single detail that could be verified or a single supporting document. Do you really expect anyone to put their soul on the line and follow something with no details. You met a man who you claimed changed your life and was a advisor to Mother Teresa amoung others, yet you didn’t mention his name. Why is that? You claim there are many crucified saviors, yet you didn’t identify any. You had this fundemantal question that you needed answered, yet you never identified it or the answer that solved it for you. If you want us to understand, Fill in some of the blanks.

The second thing is that you imply that the Catholic Church lies as part of a business plan. This suggest you don’t understand what the church is about… It is not a money making venture. It’s job is to save souls. That is its business plan. Further, it is all about truth. If it wasn’t, it probably wouldn’t have crucified its savior. And it probably wouldn’t have had its first leader deny Christ three times.

 

[Contarini]

Contarini,

I appreciate the stand you are taking for your beliefs. I know it well

No, you don’t. You don’t know much about me. So wouldn’t it be better if we could have a respectful conversation about the historical evidence, instead of making patronizing guesses about each other’s motivations?

You made some wild claims about history which are not borne out by the evidence. That’s the point on which we disagree. You assume that I don’t accept your historical claims because of my commitment to “piety.” But it would be really astounding if I were to accept sweeping claims about history which contradict what I already know and are made by someone I have just encountered on the Internet. Do you really need to start speculating about my supposed strong commitment to my beliefs in order to explain my skepticism about your claims?

Suppose that instead of engaging in such speculations, you cite the historians whose detailed examination of the evidence supports the claims you made earlier.

What we saw, and what deeply moved me, was a documentary about the Ituri Pygmies in the Congo. The description of their social interactions led me to conclude that they might be the sanest group of people I’d ever encountered. But what almost knocked me off my seat, there in that Catholic sanctuary, was that these people worshiped a God who was born of a virgin, was wise at a young age, had a public life which included many miracles, and he was crucified, died, and rose again from the dead.

I don’t claim to know about this particular culture, and would welcome any sources you could name. (A quick Internet search didn’t provide the details you describe, but of course that’s a very superficial way of getting information!) However, there are indeed a number of cultures throughout the world which have beliefs and myths which match Christian beliefs and/or the Christian story in various ways. This is often cited by missionaries as evidence for the truth of Christianity. Clearly it affected you in the opposite direction. That’s not surprising–different people often take the same evidence as pointing in very different directions.

I met that man after hearing him give an astounding spontaneous lecture on the nature of God, Love, and Man. I could not believe my ears. He was, to my best perception, cohesively speaking at three levels of meaning at least. This is consistent with the Teaching language used at the time and region of Jesus.

Could you name scholarly works on Second Temple Judaism which speak of this “Teaching language”?

One of the chief things I learned, Contarini, was that what I had understood as Catholicism is a veil over the actual Teaching attributed to Jesus.

Are your claims about the teaching of Jesus based on historical evidence, or on some kind of esoteric revelation? If the former, could you share with us the scholarly sources where this evidence can be found? If the latter, naturally those of us who have not had your religious experiences will not find your claims convincing.

In fact, if I asked you who I was talking about when I went through the points of significance starting with the Annunciation and ending in the Resurrections, You would answer Jesus. And you would be right. But you would also be right if you named a surprisingly large number of other crucified saviours as well.

I join in the common request for you to name some of these “crucified saviours.”

And it will not be sufficient to say that these were only similar stories, or foreshadowings. That would be like a fundamentalist saying that dinosaur bones were put there by God to test our faith.

No, it’s not like that at all. The fossil record points to a story of the world quite different from the one fundamentalists believe in (and in fact fundamentalists today do not usually claim that this record is a “test of faith”–rather, they give a revisionist reading of that record). You are claiming that similarities between other mythologies and the Christian story count as evidence *against *the Christian story. This presupposes that the truth of Christianity is inversely proportional to the truth of other religions and mythologies. Many Christians do believe this, but it’s a false and destructive belief.

Ant that is why I recommend, despite your obvious sincerity and piety, that you read a more non-pious explanation of how things got how they are.

You have no idea of what explanations I have or haven’t read. I assure you that I read both pious and “non-pious” historical works, and you choose not to believe me. That makes respectful dialogue rather difficult, doesn’t it? You assume that my views derive from my alleged “piety” (about which you know nothing except that I don’t buy the secular “Whig narrative” you have presented as undoubted truth). But in fact you are the one who presents your religious experience as an important foundation for your beliefs. I haven’t had the kind of experiences you describe. I haven’t experienced anything I’d describe as a “miracle.” I am very skeptical about my own faith. But I’m even more skeptical about other narratives proposed for my belief. Why shouldn’t I be?

I’m only asking for some critical thinking in this matter

Critical thinking is exactly what I haven’t seen from your posts so far. I have seen a lot of assumptions (some of them rather patronizing and demeaning) and unfounded claims.

Yours truly,

Edwin

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As Christ said, all the miracles in the world won’t convince some people -wipe the dust off your sandals folks, this one just seeks to attack God, not find truth.

Where is there any “attack” - other than yours, that is ?​

Rather than dissing a poster, perhaps it would be an idea to discuss the remarks made by the poster. Just a suggestion. But that, I thought, was what threads - including this - were for: discussion.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What happened, Gottle of Geer, your profile used to say “Catholic” and you used to stand up for Catholic teaching… what happened?

I deleted that bit “accidentally on purpose”, like a lot of other things There’s nothing sinister in the omission though ​

 

[paul_c]

I deleted that bit “accidentally on purpose”, like a lot of other things There’s nothing sinister in the omission though ​

I don’t think anyone thought it was sinister. Maybe more like disappointing that you seem to have lost faith. I also wondered why…