Do you have Questions for a Southern Baptist?

[USMC_Convert]

See the Baptist Faith and Message, which is as close a you get with a dogmatic document from Southern Baptist.

Section 6 states: “A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers…”

But earlier in this thread wasn’t it said that children should not be baptized? So then your children are not really part of your church?

 

[lanman87]

Hey, lanman87!

Thanks for making yourself available for questions on your beliefs. An old friend of mine is a Reformed Southern Baptist. During some of our conversations, he seemed to indicate that because of his baptism in the Christian faith, he cannot sin. The example I posed was what if he had walked into his bedroom one day and found his wife in bed with another man. Could he have a temporary lapse in judgement attack the man? His answer was that neither his wife would cheat, nor he would attack because of their Christian faith. Looking back, I think he was ascribing to a “once save always saved” belief. Is that something all Southern Baptists believe? And if so, what your scriptural justification for it?

Southern Baptist do teach Security of the Believer. This is one teaching I’m personally on the fence on. I could argue from both positions.

There have been many books written about OSAS and if you really want to dig into it I suggest you find a good book on the subject that articulates the SBC position. This is pretty much the only reformed position that the SBC agrees upon.

However, since you asked. I’ll give you the logic behind it and then list the scriptures the SBC associates with OSAS.

The thinking is that once someone truly places faith in Christ they are adopted as sons (Romans 8:14) and sealed by the Spirit. If we are truly adopted and sealed then we are secure in our salvation. If we are adopted then it is a binding that cannot be broken. Just as a legal adoption cannot be broken.

I have a son. If my son disobeys, he is still my son. If he screams at me and cusses me to my face, he is still my son. If he goes out and tells his friends that he hates me, he is still my son. If he tells folks that I’m not really his dad, he is still my son.

If I will love and cling to my son that much, how much more will God, who gave his own son for me and then adopted me as His child, love and cling to me?

The SBC however, does not teach that it is okay to sin. As a matter of fact, historically the SBC has been one of the most consistent teachers against sin as any group in the world.

I know it sounds like a paradox but the teaching is way to much to put into a post on a message board. Here is the paragraph and scriptures to support this position from the Baptist Faith and Message

*All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2.*

 

[omgriley]

Section 5 states: “All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.”

So if let’s say you had someone who truly believed but went out and persecuted a group of people, did horrific and awful things and then died, that person is saved even though they have committed so many sins?

This goes to the gist of my original question as well…

Do SBs believe it is possible for Christians (Believers) to lose their salvation?

 

[lanman87]

Section 5 states: “All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.”

So if let’s say you had someone who truly believed but went out and persecuted a group of people, did horrific and awful things and then died, that person is saved even though they have committed so many sins?

See post #42

 

[Contarini]

I haven been on this board for a few weeks and have appreciated the answers to my inquiries about Catholicism. I have learned a great deal about the Catholic church and theology both from the threads on this message board and other places (websites books…).

Being in the Bible belt I’ve had very few interactions with Catholic believers. I’ve never been in a Catholic church. I’m from Alabama and most cities in Alabama have one or two Catholic churches and many counties in Alabama have no Catholic church at all. The most exposed I’ve been to Catholicism is that I’ve visited the Ava Maria Grotto.

I’ve come to realize that most of the regular posters on the site are very well versed in theology and many of you probably know Southern Baptist beliefs and practices better than me, even though I’m a cradle baptist.

However, I thought it might be interesting to see what questions you might have about the largest protestant group in the country. I’m not a trained theologian or pastor. However, if any of you have any questions about Southern Baptist I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability. If I don’t know the answer I will say so and seek to find the answer.

My question would be:
A. Are you a Calvinist? and if not
B. How do you account for the history of the doctrine of eternal security? Do you believe that God guided Calvinists to develop the doctrine in the context of predestination, even though predestination is itself a mistaken doctrine?

This only works if you’re the kind of SB who believes in eternal security but is otherwise an “Arminian.” If you don’t fall into that category, my question is wide of the mark. But as someone who cut my teeth arguing with Baptists about eternal security, this is something that I’ve puzzled over ever since I learned the history of the doctrine. Most Baptists don’t seem to know or care about the history of their doctrines, but clearly some do.

 

[lanman87]

Section 6 states: “A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers…”

But earlier in this thread wasn’t it said that children should not be baptized? So then your children are not really part of your church?

Children are part of the church, in that they are nurtured, taught scripture, taught to worship, and encouraged to have faith in Christ. However, they are not considered “members” of the church until they make a profession of faith in Christ and are baptized.

 

[USMC_Convert]

See post #42

Yes my friend but in that post I think you are coming dangerously close to your description of a Northern Baptist!!!

Let me rephrase, can a true believer go to hell?

 

[lanman87]

What about the “households” that were Baptized? Did they leave out the babies and little ones not old enough to understand. Just because those in the “household” weren’t listed by age, doesn’t mean they were excluded!! God Bless, Memaw

To put it simply. You are assuming they had small children/infants who couldn’t understand the Gospel. Baptist and those who hold to believers baptism assume any children in the household were old enough to believe in Christ.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Children are part of the church, in that they are nurtured, taught scripture, taught to worship, and encouraged to have faith in Christ. However, they are not considered “members” of the church until they make a profession of faith in Christ and are baptized.

Interesting, so then being members of the church, or not members of the church, how does that work as the church is supposed to be the body of Christ, correct? Then they are not members of the body of Christ?

 

[lanman87]

Yes my friend but in that post I think you are coming dangerously close to your description of a Northern Baptist!!!

Let me rephrase, can a true believer go to hell?

Southern Baptist say no. If you are asking my personal opinion, it is definitely maybe.

 

[Thom18]

To put it simply. You are assuming they had small children/infants who couldn’t understand the Gospel. Baptist and those who hold to believers baptism assume any children in the household were old enough to believe in Christ.

And, as you said, Baptists assume that all children in the households (were there any) were old enough to believe in Christ. Which one sounds more probable? That there were infants among those baptized (or simply, children under the age of reason) or that there weren’t?

 

[omgriley]

Southern Baptist do teach Security of the Believer. This is one teaching I’m personally on the fence on. I could argue from both positions.

The thinking is that once someone truly places faith in Christ they are adopted as sons (Romans 8:14) and sealed by the Spirit. If we are truly adopted and sealed then we are secure in our salvation. If we are adopted then it is a binding that cannot be broken. Just as a legal adoption cannot be broken.

I have a son. If my son disobeys, he is still my son. If he screams at me and cusses me to my face, he is still my son. If he goes out and tells his friends that he hates me, he is still my son. If he tells folks that I’m not really his dad, he is still my son.

The SBC however, does not teach that it is okay to sin. As a matter of fact, historically the SBC has been one of the most consistent teachers against sin as any group in the world.

I know it sounds like a paradox but the teaching is way to much to put into a post on a message board. Here is the paragraph and scriptures to support this position from the Baptist Faith and Message

Thanks lanman87.

It seems to me though that your analogy is flawed. Yes, your son is still your son even if he’s a rotten one. But in this analogy your son is clearly sinning, perhaps gravely sinning. You have a son who, despite disobeying you, is still your son. God has his elect who, despite sinning against Him, are still His elect?? Are you saying that even if your son persisted to the end in such a state, he’d be saved? If that’s the case then what separates a believer from a non-believer, and how do we objectively know which one we are?.

For instance, a so-called Believer can go his entire adult life believing he is assured of his salvation because of his acceptance of Jesus into his life… But then one day turn around and repudiate the whole thing and become an atheist! Would a SB look at such a character and say “Well, I guess he was never really a believer after all.”? Then what does that say about the character’s lifelong assurance of salvation? Was he simply wrong about it the whole time? If so, that indicates that we cannot be assured of our salvation. In fact, it seems to indicate that we can be lured into a false sense of security.

What are your thoughts?

 

[omgriley]

See post #42

Thanks, I jumped the gun.

 

[lanman87]

Interesting, so then being members of the church, or not members of the church, how does that work as the church is supposed to be the body of Christ, correct? Then they are not members of the body of Christ?

I guess not, members of church are baptized believers.

 

[elohimrules]

What do protestants think about the church before the reformation? Where was the protestant religion? Or do they think it just began at the time of Martin Luther?

Do protestants still view themselves as protesting the Catholic church like Luther? Do they think of the history of the church and what was before Luther?

 

[lanman87]

And, as you said, Baptists assume that all children in the households (were there any) were old enough to believe in Christ. Which one sounds more probable? That there were infants among those baptized (or simply, children under the age of reason) or that there weren’t?

It is all speculation. I count 4 instances in scripture where someone’s household was baptized. I’ve seen children as young as 4 be baptized as believers. I’m skeptical that a 4 year old can have saving faith, or maybe they can, it is not for me to say.

However, it is not beyond the realm of reason to think that 4 families all had children from 4 years old and up.

The fact is we just don’t know. They could have had infants or they could have kids that were grown and gone.

 

[USMC_Convert]

I guess not, members of church are baptized believers.

So if they are not members of the body of Christ and die do they go to heaven?

 

[TechieGuy]

How well (or not) is your denomination doing in retaining members/children of members once they reach the age of 18?

 

[ffg]

I guess not, members of church are baptized believers.

How does the church look at those with dementia?

Once a believer, always a church member? or always have to be believing?

What if I forget someday, and for the rest of my life - about Jesus because my grey matter crumples (some might argue the crumpling is already happening)?

No more a church member?

 

[lanman87]

Why attend any SB church, instead of just praying at home for the Holy Spirit to inspire one’s own reading of the Bible?

Do SB’s ask for their pastor to pray for them - why / why not?

Do SB’s ask for spiritual advice from their pastor - why / why not?

Are all non-SB churches are incorrect theologically according to the SB? If so, why did the Holy Spirit not preserve them? If not, why the difference between SB and them?

1. Christianity is done in community. We come together to pray, fellowship, worship, learn, put our learning into action by being doers of the word and not hearers only, give, support each other and so on.
2. Yes, because the Bible teaches us to pray for each other.
3. Yes, because he has been called by the Holy Spirit to be a pastor/teacher/shepherd. He has also, usually, been trained to be a counselor or can direct someone to others who are more versed in whatever spiritual issue someone may be dealing with.