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2nd_Adam
Guest
Therefore, when the Pope speaks for the chair, it is not God-breathed, correct?
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PRmerger
Guest
Correct. All divine revelation ended with the last apostle. Do you believe that, too?
Still waiting for the Scripture verses that tell you that Scripture is your authority.
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ronin67
Guest
Good question, I don’t know I never asked him (I no longer attend the Baptist church I use to go to since I moved). I currently go to mass during the week. Good answers above. Thank you ma’am and my apologies for calling you sir in prior posts. No I meant marry someone totally different. Also, what about a wife that is beaten on a daily basis by her husband. Would divorce be warranted to save her life and her children’s life?So was Jesus!
Words are important. And even a slight change in the nuance of a word or phrase can change the meaning entirely.
Example: The CC is waging a war against poverty.
The CC is waging a war against the poor.
2 similar sentences, yet with 2 vastly different meanings.
The CC does not teach that.
Remember, the CC honors the Holy Infants who were JEWISH, every single Dec. 28.
Now you are being disingenuous. Of course it would *not *be ok with you if I told you you’re going to hell. Else why would you be so earnest about this topic.
It diminishes your integrity when you make statements like that, and although I try to see whether your arguments are incisive, statements like that above make me wonder about your ability to dialogue.
You mean if they repented that they divorced and “re-married” their first spouse? For that would be what true repentance means, right? I mean if someone says, “I repent of my adultery”, but keeps on doing the deed, then that’s not really repentance, is it?
I suspect, however, that the above example is not what you mean. You mean if someone feels bad that they disobeyed God’s law but continues to live in their sin will they be allowed to go to communion? The answer is, sadly, no. They have chosen to separate themselves from God and His church and to receive “communion”–meaning union with God and His Church, would be a lie.
So, does your pastor marry someone who’s been divorced, Ed?
Take Care and May God Bless!
Ed
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Our Triune God is my final authority!
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Hisalone
Guest
PPm not only these verses but the ones I gave you demonstrate the authority of Gods word. The word of God goes out and does not come back void demonstrates the authority of Gods word. That God holds His word higher than His Name again demonstrates the authority. That His word cannot be broken again speaks to the authority of His Word.Heaven and earth shall pass away but His word shall not pass away that is authority.
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Hisalone
Guest
Of course not.
God continues to reveal Himself to His people.
You have been given a number of scriptures which you chose to ignore.
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ncgolf
Guest
Revealing and revelation are 2 entirely different things. God reveals himself in Scripture, yes, but the messages of revelation have not changed. If additional revelation authored by God has ocurred then why has Scripture not changed.
If you believe additional revelation has occurred … what doctrines or beliefs would those be?
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Leadee
Guest
I guess am wrestling with understanding CC theology. I was raised in the CC and one thing I have to say is, I learned very little about the bible but was taught plenty on the doctrine of the church yet I still don’t understand even that and most catholics I know don’t either. One thing mentioned here is that the CC started the day of penticost. Where in the bible does it say that? Another big question I have is, If the bible says our works are like filthy rags and to have eternal life we must believe in Jesus, why on top of that are we to do more works to hold on to that life? In all honesty, I can see why so many fall away from the church because I went through a period in my life when I just gave up because I couldn’t be “good enough”. It sure seems to me like it takes a whole lot away from the whole Gospel, which is that Jesus died and rose again so that we could LIVE. If we are made alive that means we were dead. Obviously Jesus is talking about spiritual life here so if we are made alive, aren’t we in *personal *relationship with the Father? If so why do the rules and doctrine of men supercede the bible? The reason I ask is that I find doctrine that contradicts scripture in quite a few circumstances and this concerns me. Jesus tells us to search the scriptures to test *everything *and I believe he’s not just talking to the leaders of the church but to each and every one of us. So I am always asking new questions and studying the scriptures on my own time so that I can learn from the only real teacher of truth, the Holy Spirit, that has been promised to each and every one of us.
If Jesus’ blood covered all our sins, why do we have to keep working to get rid of them? The bible makes it clear that there is nothing we can do to be saved except to believe in Jesus. If the CC (or any other church) leaders are perfect, how do you explain all the corruption in the church over the history of it? That right there should be a huge tip off that each one of us is accountable to seek after God and his truth on our own. Of course I believe church is critical but it’s still made up of imperfect humans from the top on down.
If Jesus’ blood covered all our sins, why do we have to keep working to get rid of them? The bible makes it clear that there is nothing we can do to be saved except to believe in Jesus. If the CC (or any other church) leaders are perfect, how do you explain all the corruption in the church over the history of it? That right there should be a huge tip off that each one of us is accountable to seek after God and his truth on our own. Of course I believe church is critical but it’s still made up of imperfect humans from the top on down.
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PRmerger
Guest
And here’s another example of 2 similar sentences with 2 vastly different meanings:
-The CC is waging a war against apostacy.
-The CC is waging a war against apostates.
(Lest people read this post too quickly and jump to conclusions, let me clarify: The first statement is true. The second is false.)
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PRmerger
Guest
Oh. I thought that you claimed that your church teaches divorce and re-marriage is wrong, like the CC does.
What did you mean here then:
I said
You responded:
It sounded like you were certain that your denomination preached the same as Jesus, now you’re saying you don’t know?
The CC would affirm and encourage her right to leave the household with her children.
Divorce would not be warranted to “save her life and her children’s life”, Ed. If her life is in imminent danger what would save her life is leaving, not divorcing.
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen!Our Triune God is my final authority!
So when 2 people have 2 contrary interpretations of the same Scripture verse, in your theological system, Adam, how does one determine which is correct?
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PRmerger
Guest
You make the mistake, Leadee, of assuming that everything we believe must be in Scripture. Scripture does not say that at all, so you are adding something to God’s Word.
The CC does* not* teach that “we have to do more works to hold on to that life.”
I believe that you have been misled, Leadee. Jesus dying and rising again so that we could live is NOT the WHOLE Gospel. The whole Gospel is…well…the *whole *Gospel.
The CC does not take one or two verses out of Scripture and say that the entire message of Christ is encapsulated in that verse. We use the entire Word of God, the* entire *Deposit of Faith that God has gifted us with.
There are no doctrines in the CC that contradict Scripture.
That is another thing that you have been taught incorrectly, Leadee.
The Bible makes clear that there are LOTS of things we must do to be saved. Again, the CC takes ALL of God’s Word as revelation:
We are saved…
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?
The CC does NOT teach that its leaders are perfect.
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PRmerger
Guest
No, what they say is that God’s word is inspired–Amen! and profitable–Amen!
But, they DO NOT SAY THAT THE BIBLE IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY.
If you continue to insist that it says that, then you must also accept the Scriptural verses we provide for purgatory, Mary as Mother of God, the papacy, etc etc etc, which you continue to deny as Scripturally supporting our doctrines.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Historic church creeds and confessions are very valuable, but not authoritative over what is written in the Scriptures. You will find that I am a Creedal Christian, but Scripture trumps creeds and confession because creeds and confessions are not considered Inspired by God like the Holy Scriptures. I do not believe the Catholic Church teaches that creeds and confessions are God-breathed, correct? You will find that Catholic theologians have contrary interpertations all the time. Try following the different interpertations of predestination within the Catholic Church.
Christians believe that God is always authorative. The disagreement of authority is about how God reveals Himself to us. Remember, we share many of the same historic creeds.
Here is a link to some of the Reformed creeds and confessions embraced by many Reformed Christians. Will share some of the same historic creeds!
reformed.org/documents/index.html
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PRmerger
Guest
You are correct. I am not certain why you brought this up.
That’s a little ironic, given the over 40,000 different denominations of Protestantism.
The universal Catholic Church has one deposit of faith, one teaching. The CC in Japan teaches the same doctrine as the CC in Jordan, which teaches the same doctrine as the CC in South Africa.
Your denomination–whatever it is–teaches doctrines contrary to the church down the street. It is based on your pastor’s fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of Scripture.
*And remember, since he’s fallible, BY DEFINITION, he’s going to be wrong *in his preaching sometimes, so you best be wary! **
So when you disagree with your pastor (and you will, and SHOULD, since he’s fallible!), what will be your authority, Adam?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
If you were honest about the Catholic Church, there is much disagreement within those who are in the Catholic Faith in many levels on many issues. Again, my Pastor is not authorative, nor is my denomination. God is the final authority. How does God reveal Himself authoritatively to His adopted children? My answer is through His Special Revelation known as the Holy Bible. And through the 3rd person of the godhead, He reveals and illuminates the written word of God to His children progressively in their lives.You are correct. I am not certain why you brought this up.
That’s a little ironic, given the over 40,000 different denominations of Protestantism.
The universal Catholic Church has one deposit of faith, one teaching. The CC in Japan teaches the same doctrine as the CC in Jordan, which teaches the same doctrine as the CC in South Africa.
Your denomination–whatever it is–teaches doctrines contrary to the church down the street. It is based on your pastor’s fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of Scripture.
*And remember, since he’s fallible, BY DEFINITION, he’s going to be wrong ***in his preaching sometimes, so you best be wary!
So when you disagree with your pastor (and you will, and SHOULD, since he’s fallible!), what will be your authority, Adam?
If you want to see the division and disunity between Catholics, all you need to do is read some of the threads on Catholic Answers. There is a mixed bag of beliefs within the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church had perfect unity, why is there a companion to the Catechism for the current Catholic Catechism? Why is there a new Catholic Catechism which replaced the older ones?
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PRmerger
Guest
There are indeed disagreements among* Catholics*, but not in what is proclaimed by the CC. Again, the nuances of language are quite significant and speak volumes. To the degree that a Catholic teaches something contrary to what the CC teaches, he is wrong.
However, you are correct in that Catholics are given much freedom to discuss and dialogue about matters of faith and morals in which God has not provided us with any revelation.
Example: we are free to discuss whether Mary actually died and was assumed into heaven, or simply "fell asleep’ (aka “the Great Dormition”) and was assumed into heaven. However, God has spoken and told us that Mary was assumed into heaven, and I dare not disagree with God on that!
Now, here’s a list of different doctrines that your pastor has a view on that disagrees with the pastor down the street (and probably disagrees with *your *interpretation on something!) However, the CC has a quite consistent view on all of the following:
What is original sin and its effects on humanity
Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture
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PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, you are mistaken in thinking that the CC has “perfect unity”. It does not, nor does it claim to.
Secondly, if you can find any contradictory teachings in any of the Catechisms, or compendia, please provide them here.
Thirdly, when you disagree with your pastor (and you will, and SHOULD, since he’s fallible!), what will be your authority, Adam?
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fhansen
Guest
No one says any different and this simply confirms the CCs teaching on original sin. And Jesus addresses this matter in Matt 23:1-4:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
The New Covenant acknowledges that man cannot live up to Gods standards on his own.. But this in no way should mean that God would simply abandon His standards for man. What kind of capricious God would make man, give him laws that He knew he could never live up to, blame him for it, cast him into a world of pain, suffering, and death, and then at some arbitrary time save him in spite of his rebellion anyway? God’s purpose from the beginning has always been the same-to create beings of integrity who* willingly* love and obey Him. Read what St Paul says:
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Pressing on Toward the Goal
**Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 4:4-14 **
Even if a person could obey the law perfectly on his own, his righteousness would still be as “filthy rags” because “the law made nothing perfect” -he’d only be putting on a pretense of true righteousness. Man can only be made righteous by God-a work of grace- and the beginning of this is faith. The point is that true conversion is a process, during which God writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds, where we are to be molded/perfected in love, fulfilling the commandment to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. The doctrine of imputed righteousness that claims we’re saved by Jesus’ blood covering our sins so that we can enter heaven still attached to sin is heresy-it’s to give up seeking the prize.
**Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-20
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36-40
If you love Me, keep My commandments.” John 14:6-15
This is my command: Love each other. John 15: 9-17
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48
…for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Pet1:16 (from Lev.)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:9-11
“Apart from me you can do nothing” John 15:5
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds. Heb 10:16**
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