Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

[PRmerger]

My question is, “How important to the CC are these doctrines for one’s spiritual maturity?”

Again, I have to posit that this is the wrong question for any lover to be asking.

Imagine if you’re asking your spouse to do something for you, to believe something about you, to discuss something with you and you ask: “Ummm, how important is it that I do this, or believe it, or discuss this with you? Will it enhance our relationship?”

 

[Contarini]

No, I don’t believe that. Calvinists believe God overrules our choices.

Actually they don’t think that–they think God causes our choices (at least our good ones).

But that’s not the topic here!

Edwin

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Actually they don’t think that–they think God causes our choices (at least our good ones).

But that’s not the topic here!

Edwin

That’s true.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Great job with #1-4.

#5 and #6 do not correctly limn Catholic teaching.

-We do not quantify Mary’s love.
-We do not proclaim that praying to Mary is “better than praying directly to God.”

And a tweak to #4: it is not Catholic teaching that Mary “never died.” The Church has not made that definitive teaching–she may have died and then been assumed into heaven, or she may have not died and been assumed into heaven.

OK.
Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Do most Catholics pray to Mary?
Is Mary in any way above Abraham, Moses, or the other great saints?

A technical question regarding the use of this forum: Is it wrong for me to edit quotes of other forum users such as yourself? I’ve been editing some of them for the purpose of honing in on the points I’m responding to.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Again, I have to posit that this is the wrong question for any lover to be asking.

Imagine if you’re asking your spouse to do something for you, to believe something about you, to discuss something with you and you ask: “Ummm, how important is it that I do this, or believe it, or discuss this with you? Will it enhance our relationship?”

I understand your point. It’s like if you asked me, “Can I be a good charismatic and have jealousy in my heart?”
I would smile or laugh and ask, “Why? Do you have jealousy in your heart?”
If you said yes, I might respond, “You aren’t going to lose your salvation because you have jealousy in your heart but it will put a black spot on your spirit that will keep you from experiencing all of God’s peace and joy.”

My point is I would answer the question.

To help you understand why I’m asking, I have been in contact with Christians who are very sectarian in that they have a long list of doctrines that they consider necessary for salvation. If you don’t agree with them on one of those rules, they don’t want to fellowship with you. For example, one woman was shunned by her sisters in the Lord because she began putting makeup on.
There are Christians of other groups who have a good sense of what is necessary, what is important, and what is not so important (for example, how many stained windows are in the sanctuary). They are not judgmental. They don’t look down on Christians of other persuasions for minor disagreements. Paul addresses this problem in Romans 14.

I am trying to determine how sectarian the Catholic Church is. I’ve received the impression in the past that they are quite open to non-Catholic Christians.

Thanks.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I hope I haven’t strayed from Mary. I don’t think I have.

 

[PRmerger]

OK.
Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

For the same reason that you ask someone who’s righteous to pray for you. The prayers of a righteous man avails us much, no?

Do most Catholics pray to Mary?

I don’t know what percentage of Catholics pray to Mary.

Is Mary in any way above Abraham, Moses, or the other great saints?

I don’t think she’s “above” any of the great saints, but she is given the title “Queen of All Saints”. Now, to the degree that a queen is above others, then I guess Mary is “above” them. But a queen is not superior to her subjects, just as Mary is not superior to anyone else, as far as humanity goes, of course.

A technical question regarding the use of this forum: Is it wrong for me to edit quotes of other forum users such as yourself? I’ve been editing some of them for the purpose of honing in on the points I’m responding to.

You can delete some of the comments inside the quotes. However, if you delete a large portion it’s better to designate you’ve done this by using this term:

to indicate you’ve cut out a large section of the other person’s post.

 

[PRmerger]

My point is I would answer the question.

Fair enough.

And what would your answer be if your lover asked you, “What’s the minimum amount of contact with you that I have to have to be considered your wife still?”

Would you answer the question? Is there a minimum?

 

[PRmerger]

There are Christians of other groups who have a good sense of what is necessary, what is important, and what is not so important (for example, how many stained windows are in the sanctuary).

Is there a list in the Bible that says what is “necessary” and what is “not so important” as far as beliefs required for salvation?

 

[Linda_Marie]

OK.
Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Do most Catholics pray to Mary?
Is Mary in any way above Abraham, Moses, or the other great saints?

A technical question regarding the use of this forum: Is it wrong for me to edit quotes of other forum users such as yourself? I’ve been editing some of them for the purpose of honing in on the points I’m responding to.

All grace and mercy entered the world through Mary. She brought Christ to us. All grace and mercy still comes through her as the Mediatrix of all Graces.

As we are the body of Christ, with Him as our Head, she is the neck. Everything that comes from Christ, goes through her, before it reaches us. Every grace you have received has come through Mary because her abiding desire is to bring all mankind to Christ.

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.” St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.

She is Queen of Heaven, Queen of Saints, Queen of Angels, so, yes, she is above all other Saints, above Abraham, above Moses. She is the New Eve.

Heaven is a heirarchy, a Kingdom. Jesus is the King, Mary is the Gebirah, the Queen Mother.

Not all Catholics have a devotion to Mary so I can’t speak for them.

I pray to Mary because she is my spiritual Mother. It was through her influence that I came to Christ. She continues to help me get closer still to Jesus.

She has power, granted to her by God, to use as she desires. Her will is united with God’s Will and she desires the salvation of all. She uses her power to help all of us reach heaven.

Another reason to be devoted to her is because she is Family. It follows naturally from claiming brotherhood with Christ. She is Jesus’s mother. If Jesus is our brother, then His Mother is also our mother. We are called to honour our mother, not only the mother who gave birth to us, but also the mother of Jesus. I don’t see how we can claim kinship with Jesus and ignore His mother.

You are most welcome to come to Mass. Do not be surprised if no one speaks to you. We have lots of visitors, either Catholics from other parishes, or those inquiring or just curious so we don’t necessarily know everyone who comes. Just a caveat that those not fully initiated into the Church may not receive the Eucharist.

It used to be practice that all conversation stopped on entering the Church. The time before Mass is to be used to prepare for the reception of the Eucharist, in quiet prayer. These days, we are finding more ‘fellowship’ and chatting going on before the start of Mass but the general rule is still silence.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Fair enough.

And what would your answer be if your lover asked you, “What’s the minimum amount of contact with you that I have to have to be considered your wife still?”

Would you answer the question? Is there a minimum?

You’re making your point very well. But I’m not asking God how little contact I can have with him and still be considered his child. I’m asking my new friend, a representative of the Catholic Church, what you have to believe to be a good Christian in the eyes of the CC. Isn’t that question like the question of this thread?

Maybe the reason we’re not connecting is that you see the Catholic Church as the church of Jesus Christ, while I see it as one of many Christian denominations.

Then you asked, “Is there a minimum?”

Yes. Since salvation is a gift received by faith, God considers you his child as soon as you give your life to him. The minimum is that you repent, which I understand to mean that you turn away from your old way of life in which you were King, and start following the King of kings.

Once the minimum is satisfied, then God starts to renew your mind and purify your whole heart, dislodging every lie that still has a hold on you. While this process is ongoing, you are covered by the Atonement. God sees you as clean because Jesus paid the penalty for your sins. Jesus said to his disciples in John 13:10, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you [referring to Judas].”

Have a good day! We’re enjoying the foliage of Vermont & New Hampshire—God’s art!

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Thanks, Linda Marie.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re making your point very well. But I’m not asking God how little contact I can have with him and still be considered his child. I’m asking my new friend, a representative of the Catholic Church, what you have to believe to be a good Christian in the eyes of the CC. Isn’t that question like the question of this thread?

There is no minimum, Cal. It’s a marriage between God and His Church–so to ask, “What does a Catholic have to believe in order to be a good Christian” is akin to asking, “What does a wife have to do in order to be considered a good wife? Is washing clothes once a week enough? Or must it be twice?”

Any wife who asks this is surely demonstrating her inability to understand what marriage is.

Maybe the reason we’re not connecting is that you see the Catholic Church as the church of Jesus Christ, while I see it as one of many Christian denominations.

Yes. This is true.

And these tens of thousand of Christian denominations are an obscenity. Chaos and confusion orchestrated by the Author of Chaos and Confusion.

Then you asked, “Is there a minimum?”

Yes. Since salvation is a gift received by faith, God considers you his child as soon as you give your life to him.

Not saying I disagree with you here, but what verse in Scripture says this.

And if one becomes a child of God by giving your life to him, how does one do this? By saying the Sinner’s Prayer? By answering an altar call?

If so, what verses in Scripture say this?

The minimum is that you repent, which I understand to mean that you turn away from your old way of life in which you were King, and start following the King of kings.

Chapter and verse for this, too, please. The word “minimum” in there would be helpful.

Have a good day! We’re enjoying the foliage of Vermont & New Hampshire—God’s art!

Right back at cha!

Post a photo in your signature of the foliage–that would be pretty!

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

a bit busy now. I’ll get back to you later.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

PR, here are some verses I’ve taken from a collection I have.
I believe you’ll find some absolute requirements, some nonnegotiables—we must do them OR ELSE!

John 3:16, 18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. . . . Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.

Romans 8:14 NCV
The true children of God are those who let God’s Spirit lead them.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

John 3:3
Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Romans 8:9
If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction.

1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist–he denies the Father and the Son.

 

[bluelake]

I’m sure others will respond to the specific objections you have raised, but I will answer your central question.

Yes, it is quite possible to be a good and faithful Catholic and not be persuaded that the Church’s teaching on Mary is true.

We can’t force ourselves to believe something. I shared some of your same doubts about the Church’s Marian teaching when I converted.

To be “faithful,” you must be open to the possibility that the teaching really is true but that you are simply not understanding it properly. You are also free to question why it is true, but not to claim that it is untrue (ie, you can’t be a faithful Catholic and say, “the Church is wrong about this”).

I like your response.
I agree, no one should be forced to believe something that the Holy Spirit has put in your heart.
The Bible refers to other children born to Mary. Mt.46-47.
I don’t think this would be a salvation issue. What do you think?

God bless,
bluelake

 

[PRmerger]

PR, here are some verses I’ve taken from a collection I have.
I believe you’ll find some absolute requirements, some nonnegotiables—we must do them OR ELSE!

John 3:16, 18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. . . . Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.

Romans 8:14 NCV
The true children of God are those who let God’s Spirit lead them.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

John 3:3
Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Romans 8:9
If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of ou
r Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction.

1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist–he denies the Father and the Son.

But Cal, do you not see that these are you own man-made, fallible judgments about what is a non-negotiable? The Bible says nothing at all about any of those being essential. It is simply your judgment…which, of course, could be wrong. (In fact, you you claim to be fallible–which I am sure you do, just like I do–then by definition, you’re **going to be **wrong at some point in your judgment.)

Did you notice that you cited nothing at all about needing to love your neighbor? Do you not think that is an essential?

What about belief in the forgiveness of sins? Is that not a non-negotiable?

Can one believe that there are many gods and still be a Christian? Monotheism wasn’t mentioned at all in your verses.

What about belief in the Virgin Birth? Can one believe all the Scriptures you cited above but claim, “Well, I don’t think Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a Virgin but I certainly profess and proclaim all those verses that you cited, Cal!”

So, you see, Cal, that there is NOTHING in the Bible that speaks of non-negotiables. If you have them they are a result of tradition.

Now, of course Catholics acknowledge that there are essentials. But we do it because we affirm Sacred Tradition as being another source of the Word of God. And it is through Sacred Tradition that we know what’s essential and what’s not.

Not from the Bible.

 

[wheels10]

I like your response.
I agree, no one should be forced to believe something that the Holy Spirit has put in your heart.
The Bible refers to other children born to Mary. Mt.46-47.
I don’t think this would be a salvation issue. What do you think?

God bless,
bluelake

Matthew 12:46 As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. 47 And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. 48 But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? 49 And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mary did have other children. But they were not born of her flesh but rather of her Spirit. Mary is the Mother of all Christians. All Christians are Her Children.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s something that may get some of you thinking. I wrote it for my blog some time back. The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[AMB1991]

I cant answer your question I don’t have the knowledge but I will offer advice, pray to the blessed mother ask her to show you and guide you and truly pray to accept her in your heart, because once you have the most blessed mother in your life I promise you will think back and think. " how did I ever live with out her", I hope this helps you and I’m sorry if it offends or did nothing at all, but pray the rosary pray to the blessed mother even if you don’t believe in her as your praying to her, keep trying and pray to accept her, god bless!