Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

[Cal_Fullerton]

But Cal, do you not see that these are you own man-made, fallible judgments about what is a non-negotiable? The Bible says nothing at all about any of those being essential. It is simply your judgment…which, of course, could be wrong. (In fact, you you claim to be fallible–which I am sure you do, just like I do–then by definition, you’re **going to be **wrong at some point in your judgment.)

Did you notice that you cited nothing at all about needing to love your neighbor? Do you not think that is an essential?

What about belief in the forgiveness of sins? Is that not a non-negotiable?

Can one believe that there are many gods and still be a Christian? Monotheism wasn’t mentioned at all in your verses.

What about belief in the Virgin Birth? Can one believe all the Scriptures you cited above but claim, “Well, I don’t think Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a Virgin but I certainly profess and proclaim all those verses that you cited, Cal!”

So, you see, Cal, that there is NOTHING in the Bible that speaks of non-negotiables. If you have them they are a result of tradition.

Now, of course Catholics acknowledge that there are essentials. But we do it because we affirm Sacred Tradition as being another source of the Word of God. And it is through Sacred Tradition that we know what’s essential and what’s not.

Not from the Bible.

I’m new to the fact that the Catholic Church relies on Sacred Tradition as well as the Bible. What books are part of the Sacred Tradition? Does Marian dogma come from Sacred Tradition? (I am aware that the Catholic Bible has books in it that the Protestant Bible does not.)

 

[PRmerger]

I’m new to the fact that the Catholic Church relies on Sacred Tradition as well as the Bible. What books are part of the Sacred Tradition?

All the books in Scripture are part of Sacred Tradition. It was Sacred Tradition which produced for you and me these books that became a codex of inspired writings called the Bible.

For the Bible does not tell you what books belong in it. You need Tradition, guided by the Holy Spirit, to discern this.

Does Marian dogma come from Sacred Tradition? (I am aware that the Catholic Bible has books in it that the Protestant Bible does not.)

Marian dogma comes from the* kerygma,* which is the teaching, given once for all to the saints and proclaimed by the Apostles and their successors.

 

[Arizona_Samson]

I am a Protestant making a transition into the Catholic Church, and well I can’t get past Mary. I have listened to a lot of arguments made in defence of the CC teaching on Mary, and I am still not convinced.

Greetings Dndspoon. Just curious…Why are you converting to Catholicism if you are struggling with the Marian dogmas?

 

[eddadonkey]

I’m new to the fact that the Catholic Church relies on Sacred Tradition as well as the Bible. What books are part of the Sacred Tradition? Does Marian dogma come from Sacred Tradition? (I am aware that the Catholic Bible has books in it that the Protestant Bible does not.)

Hi Cal Fullerton!

Sorry for intruding into this discussion, but I find this discussion fascinating.

Let me ask you this: how did you first come to know Sacred Scripture? Who told you?

And those people who told you, who told them? And them, who told them? And so on.

Isn’t that “tradition?”

Also, where in Sacred Scripture does it say which books should be included in the Bible?

And lastly, have you read Genesis chapters 1 and 2 in parallel with the Gospel of John chapters 1 and 2? You might get surprised

 

[eddadonkey]

I am a Protestant making a transition into the Catholic Church, and well I can’t get past Mary. I have listened to a lot of arguments made in defence of the CC teaching on Mary, and I am still not convinced.

If Mary was born sinless, that would not make her human, for the very definition of human is a flawed creature by the Biblical standard. So she would have to be like goddess or something.

Are you trying to say that Adam and Eve, who were sinless before the fall, were god and goddess or something?

I was told that Jesus could not have been inside a sinful woman, yet when we partake of the Hold Sacrament, Jesus ends up inside us, His literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Yet we are sinners.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. 1 Corinthians 11:27-31

That is why we have to be, as much as possible, sinless, have ourselves cleaned inside through God’s forgiveness and mercy, before we receive Holy Communion. That’s why we go to Confession if we are aware of serious sin, then, upon going to Holy Mass, sprinkle ourselves with holy water, pray the Kyrie, pray the Confiteor, pray the Agnus Dei, pray the Lord’s Prayer, pray The Centurion’s Prayer, before we could even approach the Holy Eucharist.

Then there is the whole “Mary full of grace” thing, that if she is full of grace therefore she is with out sin. But why is “full of grace” not in the Protestant Bible?

Why? Ask the Protestant Bible makers, I don’t know

But anyways, please read on what the Bible truly says in Luke 1:28; i.e., what does kecharitomene mean? socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/luke-128-full-of-grace-immaculate.html

As for her remaining a virgin for the rest of her life, it seems to contradict the Bible, well my Protestant Bible anyways. In, Matthew 1:24-25, it says " Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not KNOW her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus." I don’t know what the Catholic version says so, if you could help me out, that would be great.

Misunderstanding about Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her “not until”)

Then finally the assumption into heaven body and soul. I think if such a miracle had happend, you would at least have seen it in the Bible, and the very early Church fathers would have mentioned it.

Actually the greatest proof for me that the miracle of the Assumption actually happened is this: where is Mary’s body? Is there any evidence that we have relics of Mary, when we have relics of St. Paul, St. Peter, St. James, and other Christian personages of that era? Never in history, legend, or archeology do we have evidence that relics of the Virgin Mary were ever found. The only “relic” we have pertaining to the Virgin Mother’s death is a tomb…an empty tomb. It is housed in an ancient church named (yep, you guessed it) the Church of the Assumption.

Other than that, I do believe she intercedes for us just like all the other Saints. I mean I don’t mean to argue with the church, for I respect Her and the Pope, but I want to go into Catholicism knowing that what I believe is the truth, and I don’t want to lie to myself, or to you, or to God. So could you, I guess, convince me about Mary, and if not, is it still be possible to be a good Catholic without believing in the Churches teaching in Mary? Also, please pray for me. I am not just saying it, I really truly need prayer. This is a hard transition for me, leaving my Protestant roots and coming to the HCC. Pray for me. Thank you for your answers in advance, and may God richly Bless you all.

You are truly blessed for thinking and believing this way, Dndspoon! I am keeping you in my prayers.

God love you.

 

[Arizona_Samson]

With all due respect, I can’t just switch my brain to believe. I don’t want to doubt.

You don’t want to doubt but you obviously have doubts. Why does it appear you’re trying to force yourself to become a Catholic? Am I missing something here Dndspoon?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

PRmerger said, “All the books in Scripture are part of Sacred Tradition. It was Sacred Tradition which produced for you and me these books that became a codex of inspired writings called the Bible.”

So Sacred Tradition and the Bible are one and the same?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi eddadonkey,

What branch of Protestantism are you in or transitioning from?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi Cal Fullerton!

Sorry for intruding into this discussion, but I find this discussion fascinating.

Let me ask you this: how did you first come to know Sacred Scripture? Who told you?

And those people who told you, who told them? And them, who told them? And so on.

Isn’t that “tradition?”

Also, where in Sacred Scripture does it say which books should be included in the Bible?

And lastly, have you read Genesis chapters 1 and 2 in parallel with the Gospel of John chapters 1 and 2? You might get surprised

Intrude anytime, edda!

Your point about tradition & Scripture is received.

As far as I know, there is no verse in the Bible that says which books are supposed to be in there.

No, I haven’t compared the first two chapters of Gen. to the first two chapters of John. I’ll plan on doing that.

 

[AMB1991]

I wanted to post this i put this together its a dedication on the Sorrows of the blessed mother, I hope this helps you on your path to finding her…
The sorrows of the blessed mother
1st heres how you pray the rosary of the seven sorrows –
A) Begin with an Act of Contrition
B) Pray one Our Father along with seven Hail Mary’s after meditating each sorrow of Our Blessed Mother.
C)The seven sorrows of Our Blessed Mother are:

1. The prophecy of Simeon 2) The flight into Egypt 3) The loss of the Child Jesus in the temple 4) The meeting of Jesus and Mary on the Way of the Cross 5) The Crucifixion (6) The taking down of the Body of Jesus from the Cross 7) The burial of Jesus
   Now my thoughts to further meditate on the sorrows-
   ( They wouldn’t all fit so look to my next post!) Sorry–

 

[AMB1991]

Luke 1:30
And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy— the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her-
Mary never once said to herself oh but people “are going to shred me” she took her calling “behold I am the servant of the lord let it be to me according to your word” … Let us all take this and use it in our own “world” I know none of us are the blessed mother but if we all could understand god doesn’t give us anything we can’t handle and that wasn’t meant for us god has his hand in everything in our lives he knows all and if we just trust and say “let it be to me according to your word” he knows all and gives us exactly what we need when we need it even if it is a cross to Carry it is all in gods work! … Now lets take a look into marys 1st sorrow, the presentation luke 2:34
“behold this child is set for the fall and for the resurrection of Manu in Israel and for a sign which shall be contradicted and thy own soul a sword shall pierce that out of many hearts thought may be revealed” - they had took jesus to present him in the temple which was to be a joyful experience and though it still was. Just imagine taking your baby to be christened and told “and behold this child is set for the fall” but Mary knew this is gods plan for my son and myself she took all sufferings as blessings she is obedient and humble " he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid" Aka servant" Mary proclaimed this and it shows how please god is with her. You can see through the presentation how yes Mary always shows grace and how humble, but in this we see how obedient Mary is and took her calling and followed the lord… Now taking a look into the 2nd sorrow when Mary flees to Egypt with Jesus and Joseph. Matthew 2:13 “When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” -this sorrow shows Mary was awaken in the middle of the night and told our child is in danger we have to leave and it says it was a foreign and strange land for Mary and this trip was not easy it was over 80 miles on foot with a young child and yet she never worried she simply trusted her husband an the lord and took yet another cross and started there journey we all face things everyday we just have to trust and even though it may be a “sorrow” it all will be ok. And it shows after they got to Egypt Herod tried to and yet did not succeed because the holy family trusted the lord… The 3rd sorrow - Mary seeks Jesus lost in Jerusalem Luke 2: 45-48 " when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him.After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions; and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.” And he said to them, “How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” this sorrow shows imagine how terrified for 3 days if you had no idea where your child was you’d be out of your mind and then you found them at church? I get out of this again Mary trusted god and was patient and although was in agony looking for her son it shows it turned to be so joyous and proud imagine the feeling you’d feel once you found him in church you would be so proud. So each sorrow of marys in some way, yes was a sorrow but god his hand in as it turned from being a sorrowful to joyous! Now we will skip 4,5,6,& 7 and combine all together …
luke 23: 44 " it was now Bout noon an darkness came over the whole land until 3 in the afternoon because of the eclipse. Then the veil of the temple was torn down the middle. Jesus cried out in a loud voice " father into your hands i commend my spirit” and when he said this he breathed his last … Imagine standing watching your son your baby boy who you raised and held and carried in your womb you seen him thru everything now you have seen him to his death and as she stood there he never questioned god she was graceful and held her head in sorrow not anger with grace!!! Mark 4: 35-41 this scripture shows to have jesus in our lives doesn’t mean we wont have storms but that he will be with us he will be carrying us through!!.. Let us all carry ourselves with grace and love and trust in god he carries us thru our good times as well as our bad! He’s always there he was there to assist the blessed mother and assists us in our everyday trials and our everyday happiness! He loves us thru all! … Let’s now pray the sorrows of the blessed mother rosary

 

[PRmerger]

So Sacred Tradition and the Bible are one and the same?

The Bible is the written part of Sacred Tradition.

For the first 400 years* of Christian history there was no Bible. There was only the kerygma–which was the oral teaching of the Apostles handed down under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

*incidentally, 400 years without a Bible is a LONG time. Think about that. Imagine going from the time that the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Rock to current day, without a Constitution or written “rule”.

400 years without a Bible, yet the teachings of the Apostles survived–how? Via Sacred Tradition. Part of this teaching was written down–Sacred Scripture, and part continued to be orally transmitted–Sacred Tradition.

 

[eddadonkey]

Hi eddadonkey,

What branch of Protestantism are you in or transitioning from?

Hi again!

I’m a cradle Catholic who has fallen truly in love with the Faith and the Object of that Faith.

I have taken as my patrons the Holy Family: Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. And I have taken as my vow in life St. Josemaria Escriva’s theology of the donkey:

My child, my little donkey: if the Lord, with Love, has washed your grimy back, so accustomed to the muck, and has laid a satin harness on you, and covered you with dazzling jewels, don’t forget, poor donkey, that with your faults you could throw that beautiful load on to the ground… But on your own you couldn’t put it back on again. Forge, 330

Would that you could acquire, as I know you would like to, the virtues of the donkey! Donkeys are humble, hard-working, persevering — stubborn! — and faithful, with a sure step, tough and — if they have a good master — also grateful and obedient. The Forge, 380

Continue thinking about the donkey’s good qualities and notice how in order to do anything worth while, it has to allow itself to be ruled by the will of whoever is leading it… On its own the donkey would only… make an a*s of itself. Probably the brightest thing that would occur to it to do would be to roll over on the ground, trot to the manger and start braying.

“Dear Jesus”, you too should say to him, “ut iumentum factus sum apud te! — you have made me be your little donkey. Please don’t leave me: et ego semper tecum! — and I will stay with you always. Lead me, tightly harnessed by your grace: Tenuisti manum dexteram meam… — you have led me by the halter; et in voluntate tua deduxisti me… — make me do your Will. And so I will love you for ever and ever — et cum gloria suscepisti me!” The Forge, 381

So just call me Jesus’ little burro

Intrude anytime, edda!

Your point about tradition & Scripture is received.

As far as I know, there is no verse in the Bible that says which books are supposed to be in there.

Correct! That is why when it comes to determining which books are supposed to be in Holy Scripture it is the tradition of Protestants vs. the tradition of Catholics.

No, I haven’t compared the first two chapters of Gen. to the first two chapters of John. I’ll plan on doing that.

That’s going to be eye opening, I assure you, especially when you come to realize that the first two chapters of both books happen in seven days.

God love you.

 

[Arizona_Samson]

I cant answer your question I don’t have the knowledge but I will offer advice, pray to the blessed mother ask her to show you and guide you and truly pray to accept her in your heart,

Greetings AMB!

Where in God’s infallible word does He instruct us to pray to the “blessed mother” or any other deceased person?

 

[eddadonkey]

Greetings AMB!

Where in God’s infallible word does He instruct us to pray to the “blessed mother” or any other deceased person?

Hi Arizona Samson :tiphat:

Infallible means that someone cannot fall into error (see the root word there?). In other words, one that is infallible makes proclamations that cannot err, and thus can defend itself, explain itself, answer questions. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures (if that is what you are referring to as “God’s infallible word”) is inerrant (not containing any errors).

So who told you about the Scriptures? Are you even sure that the Scriptures are the True Scriptures? How can you know?

 

[Arizona_Samson]

Good afternoon PR,

Marian dogma comes from the* kerygma,* which is the teaching, given once for all to the saints and **proclaimed by the Apostles **and their successors.

Yet we find absolutely nothing about an immaculate conception or assumption of Mary in the “Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude 3

We know the Apostles didn’t proclaim any of the Marian dogmas since they are not found in their writings, simply because these 'developments" didn’t come about until centuries after the last of the Apostles had died.

 

[eddadonkey]

Greetings AMB!

Where in God’s infallible word does He instruct us to pray to the “blessed mother” or any other deceased person?

And oh, before I forget, why did you place quotation marks around “blessed mother”? Do you not call Mary blessed?

 

[Contarini]

Hi Arizona Samson :tiphat:

Infallible means that someone cannot fall into error (see the root word there?). In other words, one that is infallible makes proclamations that cannot err, and thus can defend itself, explain itself, answer questions. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures (if that is what you are referring to as “God’s infallible word”) is inerrant (not containing any errors).

This is not standard Protestant usage. The two words are often helpfully used to distinguish between a stricter (inerrant) and more limited (infallible) understanding of what Catholics would call inerrancy.

Imposing your usage on Protestants as the precondition of dialogue isn’t really very helpful.

Edwin

 

[eddadonkey]

This is not standard Protestant usage. The two words are often helpfully used to distinguish between a stricter (inerrant) and more limited (infallible) understanding of what Catholics would call inerrancy.

Imposing your usage on Protestants as the precondition of dialogue isn’t really very helpful.

Edwin

Uhm nope, I am imposing the true meaning of words, which is very important in discussion.

The word infallible, you see, comes from Latin And if he is going to use words from our heritage, I would suggest he use them properly.

That’s why, incidentally, we have all this misunderstandings about the Pope’s and the Church’s infallibility. All this albeit unintended misunderstanding of words.

It is best to start clearing up things as soon as possible, no?

 

[Arizona_Samson]

And oh, before I forget, why did you place quotation marks around “blessed mother”? Do you not call Mary blessed?

Absolutely I call her blessed, because God calls her blessed.

The difference between our views is that I see her as being blessed in a different context then you probably do.

God declares Mary “Blessed among women” (Luke 1:42), not blessed *above *women.