Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

[PRmerger]

Greetings Coptic.

Thanks for the links but I’m well versed with the arguments that Mr. Madrid and various other lay Catholic apologists use to support their position. Additionally, on a discussion forum it is next to impossible to engage in productive dialog with a link. Wouldn’t you agree?

Fair enough, Samson.

But I believe that I offered some Scripture verses way back in post #186, to which I don’t believe you’ve responded.

We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[CopticChristian]

Greetings Coptic.

Thanks for the links but I’m well versed with the arguments that Mr. Madrid and various other lay Catholic apologists use to support their position. Additionally, on a discussion forum it is next to impossible to engage in productive dialog with a link. Wouldn’t you agree?

No. You can as you did read the link. You are not the only one viewing this link. There are observers that see your dialogue and learn. It is presumptious of you to believe that you and you alone are in dialogue. There are observers that do not post and read and learn.

Think of it like reality posting where people that are interested in discussion that choose not to discuss can see points of view.

You can say after reading what it is you disagree with the link or agree with. You did not counter the position.

 

[catharina]

No. You can as you did read the link. You are not the only one viewing this link. There are observers that see your dialogue and learn. It is presumptious of you to believe that you and you alone are in dialogue. There are observers that do not post and read and learn.

Think of it like reality posting where people that are interested in discussion that choose not to discuss can see points of view.

You can say after reading what it is you disagree with the link or agree with. You did not counter the position.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Arizona_Samson]

Fair enough, Samson.

But I believe that I offered some Scripture verses way back in post #186, to which I don’t believe you’ve responded.

Yes, you did PRM. Please accept my apologies. Shortly after your post I typed out a rather in depth response only to have the system sign me out when I attempted to submit it. Rest assured that will be the last time I respond to a post on this site without saving it to a word document first.

School, ministry, and life in general keeps me extremely busy, so give me a couple of days and I’ll offer a response to each of the verses you’ve cited. Thank you for your patience.

 

[Arizona_Samson]

No. You can as you did read the link. You are not the only one viewing this link. There are observers that see your dialogue and learn. It is presumptious of you to believe that you and you alone are in dialogue. There are observers that do not post and read and learn.

Think of it like reality posting where people that are interested in discussion that choose not to discuss can see points of view.

You can say after reading what it is you disagree with the link or agree with. You did not counter the position.

CC I’m not presuming to be alone in this dialog. I do, however, refuse to respond to a link. As I’ve stated above my time is very limited. As such I choose to use it in responding only to those who graciously invest *their *valuable time by presenting their point of view, and not those who simply regurgitate the arguments of others.

 

[CopticChristian]

CC I’m not presuming to be alone in this dialog. I do, however, refuse to respond to a link. As I’ve stated above my time is very limited. As such I choose to use it in responding only to those who graciously invest *their *valuable time by presenting their point of view, and not those who simply regurgitate the arguments of others.

You are a hypocrite and a liar based on what you say for in post 17 of the assumption of Mary here is what you did.

Here is documentation that supports this claim;

christiantruth.com/articles/assumption.html

I wait for your response to what I asked for concerning Biblical Christianity. Define it. I asked you and you ignored my request. I graciously invested my valuable time and asked you to present your point of view.

William

 

[Protector]

PRmerger;8357762] …It doesn’t say in Scripture that Judas actually received the Eucharist.

Hi PR, just a thought -

Mark 14:19-20 “But they began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one: Is it I? (20) Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish." ( D-R)

But, the commentaries don’t actually say that Judas partook of the Eucharist (Communion), so you may be right.

Protector.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR, just a thought -

Mark 14:19-20 “But they began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one: Is it I? (20) Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish." ( D-R)

But, the commentaries don’t actually say that Judas partook of the Eucharist (Communion), so** you may be right.**

Protector.

My 4 favorite words to read here on the CAFs.

 

[PRmerger]

You are a hypocrite and a liar based on what you say for in post 17 of the assumption of Mary here is what you did.

I wait for your response to what I asked for concerning Biblical Christianity. Define it. I asked you and you ignored my request. I graciously invested my valuable time and asked you to present your point of view.

William

This is quite interesting and ups the ante considerably.

It does appear, Samson, that you are creating rules for others that you feel you are superior to? You can cite links but others can’t?

Curiouser and curiouser…

 

[Bilbo_Baggins_1]

Just going to point out the slight off-balance judgement in the last remark. CopticChristian’s posts consisted of a single link. The “hypocritical” post of Arizona Samson you linked to is him affirming a statement already put forth in the thread and providing support documentation for the position. From my reading, nowhere does he state that he can post links but others can’t, but rather is saying that a link does not constitute a statement. It does not take a lot of discernment to notice a difference between the two.

Not trying to take sides, simply noticing a seeming lack of charity.

 

[CopticChristian]

Just going to point out the slight off-balance judgement in the last remark. CopticChristian’s posts consisted of a single link. The “hypocritical” post of Arizona Samson you linked to is him affirming a statement already put forth in the thread and providing support documentation for the position. From my reading, nowhere does he state that he can post links but others can’t, but rather is saying that a link does not constitute a statement. It does not take a lot of discernment to notice a difference between the two.

Not trying to take sides, simply noticing a seeming lack of charity.

Bilbo,

This is called rescuing and is dysfunctional. Arizona never answered my question as put forth. You don’t read minds. I don’t read minds. Rescuing is a dysfunction. Arizona should be able to answer a question asked about Bible Christians and has never responded. I frequently lack Charity and I have on this post asked for forgiveness.

You can study up on Rescuing the Victim. Arizona is not a victim. Study Karpman’s triangle.

karpmandramatriangle.com/

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[Bilbo_Baggins_1]

CopticChristian,

It is not a matter of rescuing. As one of the “observers reading the thread without posting” I see a misrepresentation on your part. You did not put forth a question for Arizona to answer, but rather simply posted a link. If you want him to answer a question perhaps you should clearly state any questions you have in the post, so he knows what it is you are questioning.

You can study up on charity. You do not have to lack charity. Study Deus Caritas Est.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18437

Thank you.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian,

It is not a matter of rescuing. As one of the “observers reading the thread without posting” I see a misrepresentation on your part. You did not put forth a question for Arizona to answer, but rather simply posted a link. If you want him to answer a question perhaps you should clearly state any questions you have in the post, so he knows what it is you are questioning.

You can study up on charity. You do not have to lack charity. Study Deus Caritas Est.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18437

Thank you.

Post 78 Re: I am a Protestant I don’t think Protestant Christianity is true ?

First I want you to define for me what it is you believe “Biblical Christianity” to be.

Country of Origin
Beliefs
Salvation
Regeneration
How do you become one
Authority
Which Bible
What is true

Let me know when you are ready.

Direct Question Arizona Samson never answered…

I like this site better…no pop ups

papalencyclicals.net/Ben16/index.htm

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

The other site gave me a headache.

 

[Protector]

Quote:
PRmerger;8357762] …It doesn’t say in Scripture that Judas actually received the Eucharist.

Originally Posted by Protector
Hi PR, just a thought -

Mark 14:19-20 “But they began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one: Is it I? (20) Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish." ( D-R)

But, the commentaries don’t actually say that Judas partook of the Eucharist (Communion), so you may be right.

PRmerger;8583766]My 4 favorite words to read here on the CAF

Sounds as if it’s a rare occurrence PR. Actually, I only have three favourite words here on CAF. They are, “You ARE right.” (Those three are even rarer (?), (more rare??). Anyway, as we say in Australia, “They’re as scarce as hen’s teeth.”

Protector.

 

[PRmerger]

Sounds as if it’s a rare occurrence PR.

Indeed. I have found it quite rare to meet a Protestant in discourse who’s willing to concede that he is wrong and that his Catholic “opponent” is right. :sad_yes:

Perhaps it has to do with the Protestant’s lack of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. They just don’t know how to say it out loud: I was wrong. You are right.

 

[Bilbo_Baggins_1]

Direct Question Arizona Samson never answered…

I like this site better…no pop ups

papalencyclicals.net/Ben16/index.htm

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

The other site gave me a headache.

From only haphazardly observing this thread and glancing at the one you linked to I would simply be patient and allow Arizona Samson’s statement of, “School, ministry, and life in general keeps me extremely busy, so give me a couple of days and I’ll offer a response to each of the verses you’ve cited. Thank you for your patience.” suffice until he answers

(Edited)

Those are much more accessible reads! The Catholic.org link was simply the first one that popped up in a search. Own the book form myself.

 

[PRmerger]

School, ministry, and life in general keeps me extremely busy, so give me a couple of days and I’ll offer a response to each of the verses you’ve cited. Thank you for your patience.

Before you go through a line by line response to each of the many verses I provided which support the Catholic understanding of praying to the saints–which will be quite time-consuming and tedious–it would be better if you first address this question I posed prior:

First, welcome to the forums, Samson.

Now, as far as quoting you a verse in God’s infallible word supporting our belief in praying to Mary, you’ll have to first provide a verse in Scripture that says we must support all of our beliefs by Scripture.

If you can do that, then it makes the line by line refutation attempts worthwhile.

If you can’t provide a verse that says we must support all of our beliefs with Scripture, then it’s really unnecessary for you to attempt to refute those verses because, then, you’re not really even following your own paradigm, correct?

 

[Bilbo_Baggins_1]

PRmerger,

Would you be willing to concede the point that no belief may be found contrary to Sacred Scripture?

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

Would you be willing to concede the point that no belief may be found contrary to Sacred Scripture?

Yes, I would. No teaching of the Church can be contrary to Sacred Scripture.

But I am waiting for Samson to provide a verse (or acknowledge that he can find none) that states that we must look to Scripture to verify all our theological beliefs.

 

[Protector]

PRmerger;8584057]Indeed. I have found it quite rare to meet a Protestant in discourse who’s willing to concede that he is wrong and that his Catholic “opponent” is right. :sad_yes:

Matter of fact PR, as I said on another thread, “I don’t consider myself to be a Protestant as I was a Christian before I even knew what a Catholic was, and so I really had no basis on which to mount a protest”. However, as compliments are even rarer (?) in my experience I suppose that I could agree to being a pseudo-Protestant to take advantage of the one on offer now, (I think it’s a compliment is it not?).

Perhaps it has to do with the Protestant’s lack of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Maybe, but I don’t think they’ll beat themselves up about it, because they (apparently) disagree with the Tribunal of Penance, preferring instead to throw themselves on the mercy of God through the mechanism of 1 John 1:9,

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (KJV)

or Psalm 32:5,

“I acknowledged my sin unto Thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and Thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah”

The trouble is, as you have said,

They just don’t know how to say it out loud: I was wrong. You are right.

But then, is it not written,

“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” Matt.6:6 (KJV)

Anyway, what do I know - I’m not a real Protestant am I?

Protector.