Do you have to repent to be forgiven

[Odell]

Unless, of course, repentance IS faith in Christ, John. Did you overlook that one little caveat to your theology? Repentance IS part of “having faith” in Christ, just like forgiving others is and loving one another is. Such an approach to “having faith” in Christ makes perfect sense and ties all the little “faith alone” loose ends together - like reconciling Paul and James. It also makes sense of Christs words unless you forgive others, you will not be forgiven by God (Matt 6:14)

Acording to John God forgives us before we even sin. So there is really no need to forgive others. But it is clear that God will not forgive you if you do not love and forgive others. And I doubt that you are on your way to heaven if God does not forgive you.

It is also clear if you are not sorry for the sin God will not forgive you either. clearly if you are not sorry you do not love the one you harmed.

 

[Philthy]

No, I didn’t say it(repentance) was required.

Originally Posted by bibleapologist forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Repentance of sin is … required …
John
*

A retraction would be nice
ba:

But sin is not necessarily a rejection of salvation. Remember, that Christ died for us “while we were yet sinners”.
John
www.gideonsword.net

Yes John, but the fact that he died for us “while we were yet sinners” doesnt mean we are saved or that we havent rejected salvation, otherwise everyone would be saved - and their not. You keep stumbling on this fact. Unrepentant sin remains a rejection of salvation unless you have something better to offer than a misunderstanding of the implications of Rom 5:8

 

[bibleapologist]

Milliardo,

It does? Just for a quick review, Romans 2:5-8 merely echoes Matthew 25:31ff. Revelation 20:11-15 fits in as well here. There is no other type of Judgment that Jesus said. Let us repeat that: there is no other Judgment scene that He recounted, just that one in Matthew. I am interested what other Judgment scenes there are that you claim the New Testament states.

I have already told you. Rev. 20:12 gives an account of the “book of life”… which is the book that contains the names of those who are “in Christ”. The book of life is not simply a book that contains all the works of all mankind, this is evident by verse 15.

“Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

“Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

This is the “Lamb’s book of life”, of those who are saved, and have eternal life…

“Phi 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.”

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Odell,

Faith is a act of rightousness but yet we are not saved by acts of rightousness

You are missing the point. The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us upon faith… our faith is not equal to righteousness. Remember the devils also believe and tremble.\

if you dont repent you do not have the righteousness of God and you go to hell.

So can you tell me logically (according to your quote above) why Jesus had to shed His blood for sinners?

And if you do not repent you are not indewelt with the Holy Spirit and if you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit …

If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, then you were never saved to begin with.

The fact that a person doesn’t repent after salvation, doesn’t negate the need to be saved to facilitate true repentance.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Stillwater,

this is where i am also confused. some people claim you can be saved by repentance alone, some say by good works, and some say both. so how bout those who haven’t heard of god? like unborn babies and mentally-disabled people?

There is an active thread that covers this topic at the “Baptism… and the true church” thread.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Philty,

it seems you are saying that God will take his vengence out for sin twice - once when he took it out on Christ and again on the individual sinner in hell. Please correct me if Im wrong.

Not at all. The payment Christ made on the cross was sufficient for all sin.

“Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Jesus absolutely paid the price for all sin, but it is up to us to believe in him, and accept that payment…

“Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

If you do not believe, and have not trusted Christ… you will be condemned, but you are condemned already. That is to say, your future sins, or good works don’t mean anything… and your past sins and good works don’t mean anything. The only thing that matters is whether you believe in him, and accept the free gift of salvation.

If you haven’t accepted the free gift of salvation… you are already condemned.

Therefore, the only sin we will be judged for (or are already judged for) is the rejection of Christ.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Philthy,

I can only shake my head at such myopic theology. You are really gonna hold on to the ridiculous notion that sinning is not rejecting Christ?

This really deserves it’s own thread. I would like to engage in a philosophical discussion regarding sin, but it would stray off topic here.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Philthy,

I always find this interesting - the separation of Salvation and Reward. Is it your understanding that if someone is “saved” and yet they live a life of sin that they will remain saved but have no reward in Heaven?

Heaven is the reward. It is not rewarded on our own merits, but on the merits of Christ. Which is why we will lay our crowns at His feet.

But, it cannot be denied that there will be “extra” rewards in heaven for those who are faithful. In the passage of scripture that accounts the rapture we see evidence that those saints were given rewards according to their faithfulness…

"Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. "

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Philthy,

Now Im confused. Why is repentance required AFTER salvation, and what is the eternal consequence of not fulfilling the requirement?
Furthermore, this completely contradicts the answer you gave to “julie ann” or whatever her name was. She asked you if her adulterous father needed to repent to be forgiven and you said, “NO” Obviously the “need” to repent is for some other reason…what is it?

The “need” to repent is simply to PLEASE GOD.

"Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. "

The only way to please God is by faith… God is not pleased in any way with your works… in fact, He abhors them. In order to please God, we must first be “born again”. And by that new life through the Holy Spirit we can begin to please God because we don’t have to walk in the “flesh” anymore, we can walk in the “Spirit”.

“Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

A person who is not saved cannot do anything but walk in the flesh… because they are not “born again”. But, after they are saved (born again), they can begin to please God by walking in the Spirit.

To “walk in the Spirit” is a continual repentance of our old works, and a continual “learning” of the ways of God. This is not salvation in itself… it is the Christian life, which is begun by salvation.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Odell,

Acording to John God forgives us before we even sin. So there is really no need to forgive others. But it is clear that God will not forgive you if you do not love and forgive others. And I doubt that you are on your way to heaven if God does not forgive you.

Matthew 6:14,15 is not referring to forgiving condemnation to hell. It is referring to the physical consequences of our sins on earth.

Matthew 18:23 - 34 gives us an account of the “wicked servant”. If you will study that passage, the wicked servant owed a debt he could not pay (10,000 talents). The judgment passed to him was that his family, himself, and everything he had would be sold to pay the debt, and he would live in servitude to pay the debt.

But mercy was granted to the servant, and he was forgiven all the debt. But, he failed to reciprocate that same forgiveness to his fellowservant who owed him (100 pence).

When that wicked servant was brought back to his lord, there was a judgment enacted on the wicked servant… but the original mercy was NOT RESCENDED. His lord did not once again order that he and his family be sold… but rather he turned him over to the tormenters until the debt was paid… what was the debt to be paid?..

"Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. "

The last portion of that verse says that “he should pay all that was due unto him”. The “he” in that verse is obviously the “wicked servant”… but who is the “him”? The pronoun “him” in that verse is referring to himself. So, he should pay all that was due unto himself… or, until he forgave the debt owed to him.

The wicked servant who refused to forgive his fellowservant, was turned over to the tormentors until he forgave the debt. But the original mercy was NEVER taken away.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Odell]

Odell,
You are missing the point. The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us upon faith… our faith is not equal to righteousness. Remember the devils also believe and tremble.\

Are you saying that the devils are righteouse?

So can you tell me logically (according to your quote above) why Jesus had to shed His blood for sinners?

I said:if you dont repent you do not have the righteousness of God and you go to hell.

You say:

If you are not saved, you have died without the righteousness of Christ and you will be condemned to hell.

so can you tell me logically why Jesus had to shed His blood for those who are not rightous?

And then maybe I will give you a answer to your question. Hopefully somone else will help me with the question you asked who has a little better understanding of Catholic teaching. But I can at least see that I basically am asking you the same question. I would really like to compare your answer to one of these great catholics we have in this thred.

Did you not say that repentance is a act of rightousness. So what is non repentance? I would say you do not have rightousness if you do not repent, what do you think?

If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, then you were never saved to begin with.

if you are not sorry for your sin and repent of the sin then you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Philty,
Not at all. The payment Christ made on the cross was sufficient for all sin.

wasnt sufficient enough for those in Hell.

“Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Remember the devils also believe and tremble. And not every one who calls me Lord Lord.

If you do not believe, and have not trusted Christ… you will be condemned, but you are condemned already.

Sucked for the Indians.

That is to say, your future sins, or good works don’t mean anything… and your past sins and good works don’t mean anything.

Well I dont belive that all Indians went to Hell because the dont know Jesus. Dont think you do either. But which indians went to heaven and which went to hell? Did the good ones go to hell and the bad ones to heaven? Oh wait a min there works dont mean anything.

there screwd.

The only thing that matters is whether you believe in him, and accept the free gift of salvation.

there really screwed.

If you haven’t accepted the free gift of salvation… you are already condemned.

There really really screwd.

Therefore, the only sin we will be judged for (or are already judged for) is the rejection of Christ.

not biblical dont make me list all the judgement acounts again.
In fact that is the only sin that is unforgiven.

Philthy,
This really deserves it’s own thread. I would like to engage in a philosophical discussion regarding sin, but it would stray off topic here.

Philthy said: I can only shake my head at such myopic theology. You are really gonna hold on to the ridiculous notion that sinning is not rejecting Christ?

Im sorry but this is a great thred for what Philthy was saying. If sin is a rejection of Christ you must repent. So I would really like to hear you claim that sinning is not a rejestion of Christ.

Heaven is the reward. It is not rewarded on our own merits, but on the merits of Christ.

Amen you could not have faith without his merits and you could not have good works without his merits. It is Jesus working threw us not ourselves. Godd deeds is a gift of God as well as Faith

 

[Odell]

Philthy,
The only way to please God is by faith… God is not pleased in any way with your works…

Do what Some one help me here does the bible not say we should offer a sacrifice to God anyone know the verse. Isnt a sacrafice pleassing to God. Does the bible say the only way to please God is by faith. You mean that God shuns inmortality. But is not pleased with rightousness???

And by that new life through the Holy Spirit we can begin to please God because we don’t have to walk in the “flesh” anymore, we can walk in the “Spirit”.

Wait amin we can please God? If im not mistaken to walk in the Spirit you must give up desires of the flesh you must LIVE a moraly good life you must do Good you must have Good Works. Am I wrong?

“Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Exactly that is why you must repent.

 

[Milliardo]

I have already told you. Rev. 20:12 gives an account of the “book of life”… which is the book that contains the names of those who are “in Christ”. The book of life is not simply a book that contains all the works of all mankind, this is evident by verse 15.

Evident by verse 15?

“Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Now, this is the result of the Judgment by Christ. There are those who were not found to be in the book of life. Ergo…what? The conclusion is pretty obvious, isn’t it?

 

[Philthy]

Philthy,

Heaven is the reward. It is not rewarded on our own merits, but on the merits of Christ. Which is why we will lay our crowns at His feet.

But, it cannot be denied that there will be “extra” rewards in heaven for those who are faithful. In the passage of scripture that accounts the rapture we see evidence that those saints were given rewards according to their faithfulness…

"Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. "

John
www.gideonsword.net

I see no quantitative separation of reward in this verse. I see a listing of the various people who are the servants of God.

 

[Philthy]

Do what Some one help me here does the bible not say we should offer a sacrifice to God anyone know the verse. Isnt a sacrafice pleassing to God. Does the bible say the only way to please God is by faith. You mean that God shuns inmortality. But is not pleased with rightousness???

Romans 12:1 “I urge you, therefore, brothers by the mercies of God to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice HOLY AND PLEASING TO GOD, your spiritual worship.”

 

[Odell]

Romans 12:1 “I urge you, therefore, brothers by the mercies of God to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice HOLY AND PLEASING TO GOD, your spiritual worship.”

Thanks Philthy I knew it was there somewhere. So I guess BA got it wrong again

Originally Posted by bibleapologist
Philthy,
The only way to please God is by faith… God is not pleased in any way with your works…

I would really like his theory behind this, knowing he is not going to retract what he has said and in regards to what you just posted.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Odell,

Evidence for this can be found in mental institutions where people have allowed a root of bitterness to grow by refusing to forgive, and by doing so are tormented.

John
www.gideonsword.net

Did Tom Cruise guide you to believe this? Wow! You’ve seriously been misled to this believe this statement. This sort of generalization is can be very dangerious.

 

[Philthy]

Odell,
You are missing the point. The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us upon faith… our faith is not equal to righteousness. Remember the devils also believe and tremble.

It would be better if you explained your thoughts more clearly. It is not immediately apparent why the “devils also believe and tremble” relates to “our faith is not equal to righteousness”. One can only guess that you mean to equate the devil’s “belief” with “faith” and thereby justify your statement. The logic would be that since devils, who have “faith” are not righteous then having faith does not equal righteousness. Is that what you are saying?If so, I think you have a seriously flawed, typically Protestant understanding of what faith is. Faith requires action, not simply belief . That is why your analogy is useless - devils dont have faith, just belief and therefore no one would expect them to be righteous.

odell:

if you dont repent you do not have the righteousness of God and you go to hell.

ba:

So can you tell me logically (according to your quote above) why Jesus had to shed His blood for sinners?

First off, he didnt have to, he chose to. Now the reason he chose to is out of love for us to make possible a share of eternal life. The reason such an action was required to give us a share of eternal life (which is life with God) is because the infinite and perfect justice of God requires it. Reparation for sin needed to occur to open the POSSIBILITY of salvation for all men. Christ paid the price required to satisfy the infinite, perfect justice of Almighty God for ALL men so that they MIGHT have eternal life.(John 3:16 etc etc) Any other questions?
ba:

If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, then you were never saved to begin with.
John
www.gideonsword.net

That is pretty useful to know

 

[Philthy]

Milliardo,
I think you are going to have to prove your position if you want me to believe you.
If the essence of sin is the rejection of Christ, you are going to have to prove that Biblically and logically.
John
www.gideonsword.net

I was the one to start this and I will pursue it.
I introduced what I considered to be a most fundamental reality of Christianity: each time we sin we reject Christ.

• It is choosing to reject Jesus as our Lord
  “Why do you call me Lord yet not do as I command?” Choosing to sin is choosing to reject Christ’s commandments which is rejecting Christ. That is biblical and logical.
• It is choosing not to love Jesus and thereby not be loved by the Father
  “Whoever has my commands and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father…” That is biblical and logical.
• It is choosing to reject God’s faithful promise that no trial or temptation will be too great for us because God himself will provide us with sufficient grace to withstand every single trial ( 1 Cor 10:13) That is biblical and logical
  This issue of the distinction between sinning and rejecting Christ was raised because you contended that no sin can keep us from Heaven - Christ has atoned for all of them, and the only thing that can keep us from Heaven is “rejecting Christ”
  I believe that the verses above clearly demonstrate that the false dichotomy you created “disobeying a Command of God” and “rejecting Christ” are actually part of the same thing. This is especially obvious when you realize that the commands of Jesus which we must obey in order to ACCEPT him as Lord and our Love are, in fact, the commands of God because Jesus IS God.
  It would not surprise me that you remain unconvinced - I dont beleive it is truly Scripture and logic which prevents you from seeing the truth here. But I will provide a separate logical argument of necessity from your claims:
  You have stated that no sin can keep us from Heaven because Christ has atoned for all sin for all time and you have attempted to maintain that sin is a rejection of Gods commandments and is separate from rejecting Christ. If that is true, then we should NEVER find areas of Scripture which speak of generic sin as denying us access to Heaven. Yet we have very explicit testimony from Paul in the post Crucifixion era:
  1 Corinthians 6:8-10 “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterors nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kindgom of God.”
  How odd, John, that Paul would say that certain sins prevent INHERITANCE into the kingdom of God. Those are all sins against the commandments of God, and they prevent one from inheriting the kingdom of God. Its a very straight forward syllogism:

Premise 1: Adultery, theivery, slander, dishonesty etc are all sins against the commandments of God
Premise 2: No one who practices these things will inherit the kingdom of God
Conclusion: Therefore, sins against the commandments of God prevent us from inheriting the kingdom of God
Unless you can invalidate this conclusion, we must reject your hypothesis that sins against God’s commands cannot prevent us from seeing Heaven

Now, we do have some options at this point: we can either reject your concept that the only thing which prevents someone from entering Heaven is “rejecting Jesus”(but not rejecting Gods commandments) or we can modify your defective understanding of “rejecting Jesus” to include in that the rejection of God’s commandments. I advise you incorporate sinning into your concept of “rejecting Jesus”.

 

[Odell]

Originally Posted by bibleapologist
Philthy,
The only way to please God is by faith… God is not pleased in any way with your works…

(Lk 15:710) "I tell you that there is more JOY in heaven over one sinner who repents.

See when we repent those in heaven are happy and pleased. So also is God.