This is the most ignorant and ludicrus statement!originally posted by bibleapologist
Evidence for this can be found in mental institutions where people have allowed a root of bitterness to grow by refusing to forgive, and by doing so are tormented.
Quote:
“Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”
But repentance can be in the flesh… repentance is illustrated in the Old Testament by circumcision, by the putting away of the filth of the flesh. In the New Testament we are required to be circumcised, not in the flesh, but in the heartExactly that is why you must repent.
The conclusion of Rev. 20:15 is that the Book of life is not just a book of all the works of all the people who lived… but rather a book of all the people who are considered righteous by God. As those who are not written in that book are condemned to hell.Now, this is the result of the Judgment by Christ. There are those who were not found to be in the book of life. Ergo…what? The conclusion is pretty obvious, isn’t it?
“In the flesh” usually denotes that one is in sin; is repentance then sin? That was Paul’s point. Again, nowehere is it in the Bible that we see repentance to be not necessary.But repentance can be in the flesh.
Nowhere in the passage can we see that those who are righteous didn’t do good; indeed, if we read the passage, it is plainly stated that they are judged according to their deeds. It’s very simple, very plain. One has to deny that passage to make it mean what it does not mean.The conclusion of Rev. 20:15 is that the Book of life is not just a book of all the works of all the people who lived… but rather a book of all the people who are considered righteous by God.
“Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”I see no quantitative separation of reward in this verse. I see a listing of the various people who are the servants of God.
Again, nothing there that has any separation of Judgment, or as stated, a quantitative separation of reward. Indeed, if we look at it in another version:Philthy,
“Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”
John
www.gideonsword.net
Romans 12:1 “I urge you, therefore, brothers by the mercies of God to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice HOLY AND PLEASING TO GOD, your spiritual worship.”
"Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. "Thanks Philthy I knew it was there somewhere. So I guess BA got it wrong again
Understanding such passages should mean looking at the whole Gospel message of Christ, and for Jesus faith isn’t just one of believing Him, but obeying God’s will, which means doing something. So that faith is a faith that is not dead, but indeed vibrant and alive, and one that seeks to obey God’s will."Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. "
The only way to please God by presenting yourself a living sacrifice to God… is by faith.
You are exactly right Philthy.The reason such an action was required to give us a share of eternal life (which is life with God) is because the infinite and perfect justice of God requires it. Reparation for sin needed to occur to open the POSSIBILITY of salvation for all men. Christ paid the price required to satisfy the infinite, perfect justice of Almighty God for ALL men so that they MIGHT have eternal life.(John 3:16 etc etc) Any other questions?
That is not false dichotomy, and I will show you why…I believe that the verses above clearly demonstrate that the false dichotomy you created “disobeying a Command of God” and “rejecting Christ” are actually part of the same thing.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterors nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kindgom of God.”
That same Paul, who specified that those “worst” of sinners would not enter the kingdom of heaven, was also the same Paul who said this…How odd, John, that Paul would say that certain sins prevent INHERITANCE into the kingdom of God. Those are all sins against the commandments of God, and they prevent one from inheriting the kingdom of God. Its a very straight forward syllogism:
Please understand what Paul here is saying; he is saying this out of humility, expressing the fact that he is a snner, and the least in God’s Kingdom. It falls perfectly with Christ’s teaching that the first shall be last, and the last shall be first. Please understand the context by which Paul said this, and not take it too literally."1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. "
If those; prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, drunkards, robbers etc. won’t get into heaven… what chance would the Apostle Paul have as being the chief of sinners?
Nothnig there against repentance; indeed, if we read how Paul came to follow Christ, he first repented of what he did. So there we have it–Paul was repentant of his sins against Christ, and after that followed Him. So, Christ did not showed forth in him in repentance? But it did, resoundingly."1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. "
(Lk 15:710) "I tell you that there is more JOY in heaven over one sinner who repents.
That verse does not specify a repentance of sin. Repentance means to “turn away”. And in this sense it means to “turn away” from your previous notions of salvation and how to achieve it.See when we repent those in heaven are happy and pleased. So also is God.
Yes, sometimes repentance is sin. It was for the Pharisees.“In the flesh” usually denotes that one is in sin; is repentance then sin? That was Paul’s point. Again, nowehere is it in the Bible that we see repentance to be not necessary.
But repentance of sin is “turning away” from sin. Is there any other definition of it?Odell,That verse does not specify a repentance of sin.
Would Jesus make one notiion of salvation and then back track on it, and proclaim another? Hardly. Nowhere in that passage can what you say be garnered.And in this sense it means to “turn away” from your previous notions of salvation and how to achieve it.
That cannot be seen in Jesus’ words. It’s not there implicitly or explicitly. One has to read that passage for what it is–a man who has repented his sins is worthy of rejoicing, for we see here a person who has turned his back on his evil life. What cause for rejoicing is there for those who already live a righteous life? Of course, God glories in such people; after all, they obey God’s word and do His will. But a sinner who turns his back from sin–now that is a victory for God, for we see a soul snatched away from Satan’s grasp and delivered up for God. That is cause for rejoicing indeed. So, note that nowhere in that passage does it say that Jesus is asking for those righteous to change their minds on how to win God’s favour. To do so would be to do violence to the passage.The “just” people that Jesus was talking about were living righteously… they had repented of sin, but they needed to change their mind about how to find favor in God’s eyes.
So, which comes first according to Catholic teaching… repentance or faith?Understanding such passages should mean looking at the whole Gospel message of Christ, and for Jesus faith isn’t just one of believing Him, but obeying God’s will, which means doing something. So that faith is a faith that is not dead, but indeed vibrant and alive, and one that seeks to obey God’s will.
Your “simple” interpretation of repentance is nothing but a preconceived notion. You have always been told that repentance only means “repentance of sin”… but that is simply not the case.But repentance of sin is “turning away” from sin. Is there any other definition of it?
Ah, is repentance sin per se? That should be the first thing we must consider; having considered that then, what is Tertullian’s point? Let us read some salient points from his writing:Milliardo,
Yes, sometimes repentance is sin. It was for the Pharisees.
Check out this article by Turtullian on Repentance.
John
www.gideonsword.net
Repentance comes first, then faith. For once one repents of sin, then he turns away from it, and then gains the faith one has in Christ. For how can one have faith while one has sin? Sin, as we repeat, is a rejection of Christ. So in there we see that one must repent first, then accept (or re-accept0 Christ into his life.So, which comes first according to Catholic teaching… repentance or faith?
Ah, what is work then but living faith? Or what is evil works then but repudation of faith? A faithful man is one who not only knows God, but obeys Him. Again, we go back to what Jesus has said about this.Yes, our faith should be evident by our works, but faith does not equate with works.
Nowhere in there does it show us that we do not need to do anything either.This verse in 1 Thessalonians is an example of an exhortation to “saved” people… not the unsaved… otherwise it would be an exhortation to live as a Pharisee.
And if after salvation, it is not anymore a work, or a wrok of ourselves? But repentance is a conviction of the Holy Spirit, not of ourselves, so whether or not it occurs before or after salvation isn’t necessary nor indeed has any point, since the conviction of the Spirit causes one to repent.Repentance of sin is a “work” of ourselves when it occurs before salvation, and is an attempt to gain salvation apart from grace.
Ah, but what is repentance but a changing of one’s mind; of reconsideration? If one turns away from sin, then one reconsiders what his sinful life is, and then does the necessary thing to make his life in the way God wants us to live. Again, nothing there that is against the fact that repentance is turning away from sin; as we can see, it only bolsters that with the Greek.The definition for “metanoeo” is: "To think differently or afterward, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compuction) - repent.
Again, nothing in that passage which shows us that notion. You can turn it around and around; that notion is simply not there, either explicitly or implicitly.When Jesus talks of repentance in Luke 15, he is talking about those who “change their mind” about their preconceived notions concerning salvation. That is what I am asking of you on this thread… to change your your own mind concerning salvation (repent).
In Mark 1:15, he tells us that when we come face to face with Jesus two things are required, repentance or conversion and faith understood as a following of Jesus, discipleship. Our response to Jesus means repenting and following.So, which comes first according to Catholic teaching… repentance or faith?