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mythbuster1
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Revelation 3:16
Do You Know How Bad the Dechristianization of Europe Really Is?
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goout
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At the same time, we shouldn’t imagine that Catholics of old were in a state of advanced sanctity because they made it to the building on time.
Culture demanded Church attendance. For the most part, you were ostracized or worse if you didn’t visibly practice your faith. That’s not the same thing as sanctity. And in many cases it led to a distorted externalism.
Given the freedom to choose, many Christians have fled what they see as hypocrisy, without seeing the good that Christianity proposes for all people. And many people have simply fallen into sloth as part of the carnage.
Telling them they’re going to hell might be true, but like many true things, it’s just true. That doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near the whole Gospel.
The Gospel is holistic, and it is taken as a whole.
Being merely true doesn’t make for good evangelization. Most people are probably going to guffaw at you for the suggestion they are going to hell. Maybe they will go to hell, maybe they won’t, but if other avenues impel them back to the Church more effectively, perhaps we should pursue those.
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SnowRose
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This was the overall situation in Lutheran Scandinavia. Mandatory presence for weekly mass, mandatory questioning on the smaller catheces, notes from one parish to another on how obedient and ”Christian” you were if you moved. We’re 100-120 years into the reaction to that oppression here. Quite a number are quietly religious but no one (except the weird fringe) wants it back into the public, state-sanctioned life. If anything, faith is intensely private and unspoken, like an underground river.
What I’m trying to say is that public and personal faith are not the same thing. And a warm body/headcount at mass means little.
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goout
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I read similar things about Catholic Canada a few generations ago.goout:
This was the overall situation in Lutheran Scandinavia. Mandatory presence for weekly mass, mandatory questioning on the smaller catheces, notes from one parish to another on how obedient and ”Christian” you were if you moved. We’re 100-120 years into the reaction to that oppression here. Quite a number are quietly religious but no one (except the weird fringe) wants it back into the public, state-sanctioned life. If anything, faith is intensely private and unspoken, like an underground river.
What I’m trying to say is that public and personal faith are not the same thing. And a warm body/headcount at mass means little.
Faith can’t be coerced physically or psychologically. Fear is not sanctity.
People rebel at this injustice. So who is culpable for their objective state? The individual certainly makes choices and is responsible for them, and at the same time those who damage them by coercion bear responsibility.
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irishcatholicteen
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Ireland is still really Christian. More than 78% Catholic and a further 7% other Christian, like the Church of Ireland and the Orthodox Church. The angelus is on TV every evening, almost all schools are under the patronage of the Catholic Church, abortion in almost every case is illegal, mass attendance is 35-40% and the Pope is coming in August.
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Columba_Tom
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Some of the most reliable Catholic priests in the UK are ex-Anglicans. –Many are married men.
In my local town of about 70,000 souls, six out of about a dozen Anglican vicars turned to Rome in a few years. Several Anglican churches had to close. But the priests didn’t bring their flocks with them. The growing Christian presence here is noisy, jolly, rock-concert type of gatherings of young people, worshipping in a style probably imported from the Free Churches of America.
In my local town of about 70,000 souls, six out of about a dozen Anglican vicars turned to Rome in a few years. Several Anglican churches had to close. But the priests didn’t bring their flocks with them. The growing Christian presence here is noisy, jolly, rock-concert type of gatherings of young people, worshipping in a style probably imported from the Free Churches of America.
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steve-b
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“made it to the building on time”? We’re talking about people faithfully going to mass vs those who don’t go faithfully or have stopped altogethersteve-b:
At the same time, we shouldn’t imagine that Catholics of old were in a state of advanced sanctity because they made it to the building on time.
1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”
Source and summit, meaning everything in the middle as well. That is why to deliberately miss mass on Sunday and other holy days of obligation, is a mortal sin
So NOT telling the truth makes for good evangelization in your world?
The survey I gave, considered the result over last 50 years. Add to that, Jesus said few are saved, meaning most go to hell. So I suppose then, you are one to guffaw in the face of Jesus.
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Elf01
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Identify with does not mean lives or practices the faith
Not if the government gets their way.
I really would like to believe it but from what I know Ireland is more culturally Catholic than actually Catholic.
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Ardent_Fire
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I’m American but I live in the UK. In my experience it’s not just a lack of religion, there is an overwhelming amount of cynicism and hostility towards it to boot. Back in the U.S., in my experience if you were a churchgoer and a Catholic it’s considered mostly normal, and more often than not I’d meet someone who shared my same faith.
Even in places like Ireland and Poland where there are still pockets of devotees, secularism has been influencing things more and more. Honestly though, I’m also seeing those same secular trends in the U.S. among younger people, like Millennials. They generally speak about not being about “organized religion”
In the past I would have blamed people going overboard with Vatican II but I think it’s a lot more deep rooted than that, like others have said – some influences crept in during the Renaissance, gained traction during the Enlightenment and it’s snowballed ever since.
It’s pretty bad but you never give up. Jesus said it would get bad but the Church would prevail in the end.
Even in places like Ireland and Poland where there are still pockets of devotees, secularism has been influencing things more and more. Honestly though, I’m also seeing those same secular trends in the U.S. among younger people, like Millennials. They generally speak about not being about “organized religion”
In the past I would have blamed people going overboard with Vatican II but I think it’s a lot more deep rooted than that, like others have said – some influences crept in during the Renaissance, gained traction during the Enlightenment and it’s snowballed ever since.
It’s pretty bad but you never give up. Jesus said it would get bad but the Church would prevail in the end.
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goout
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You seem to know many things.
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commenter
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It is not injustice to point out the need for weekly worship with God and neighbor. Abandoning this does not lead to more spontaneous worship, but to less worship. Likewise, abandoning the obligation to the vows of marriage does not lead to more spontaneous love, it leads to less love.
Spontaneous, and committed, are not opposites, they go together. Getting rid of the 10 commandments does not lead to freedom, it leads to thousands of government regulations.
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goout
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I agree with you. Not sure why you addressed this to my quote.
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steve-b
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I know to quote reliable sources… copiouslysteve-b:
You seem to know many things.
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goout
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I also know a great physics professor who’s a hard atheist.
So,
?
So,
?
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steve-b
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When I said "I know to quote reliable sources… copiously"
Do you know what that means?
If I could use the statement from a “reliable atheist” (like from an Atheist like Dawkins) to make a certain point, I’d quote that source.
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goout
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You miss the point.
I will move on for you.
I will move on for you.
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commenter
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I meant it to be relevant to your quote, covering same kind of ground, not necessarily in disagreement. Sometimes when a thread has gone on for over 100 posts there are various subtopics running.
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steve-b
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May I suggest reading the followinggoout:
This was the overall situation in Lutheran Scandinavia. Mandatory presence for weekly mass, mandatory questioning on the smaller catheces, notes from one parish to another on how obedient and ”Christian” you were if you moved. We’re 100-120 years into the reaction to that oppression here. Quite a number are quietly religious but no one (except the weird fringe) wants it back into the public, state-sanctioned life. If anything, faith is intensely private and unspoken, like an underground river.
What I’m trying to say is that public and personal faith are not the same thing. And a warm body/headcount at mass means little.
Here is why Catholics are obligated to go to Mass on Sunday and other holy days
- Why it is NOT a suggestion to meet on Sunday it is a command from God
- The Eucharist is a holy meal
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phil19034
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Check out St Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic Evangelizafion group
You all should start chapters at your parishes, or in your region.
God Bless
You all should start chapters at your parishes, or in your region.
God Bless
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SnowRose
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With all due respect, I am speaking of Scandinavia where practicing Catholics are thin on the ground. I was making the parallell example of the earlier situation in Lutheran Scandinavia. The overall topic of this thread is the dechristianisation of Europe.
And I stand by my opinion - making people attend mass or service they do not care about or do not wish to attend is - at best - counterproductive. It’s a failsafe route to make people flee and/or despise organised religion.
Whether you believe Catholics have the true Eucharist or not is beside the point I was making. Naturally I don’t quite agree with you, but that is also beside the point of this thread.
And I stand by my opinion - making people attend mass or service they do not care about or do not wish to attend is - at best - counterproductive. It’s a failsafe route to make people flee and/or despise organised religion.
Whether you believe Catholics have the true Eucharist or not is beside the point I was making. Naturally I don’t quite agree with you, but that is also beside the point of this thread.
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