Do you know people who pray in tongues?

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That’s not really a good analogy. As mentioned - there is absolutely nothing about “tongues” that cannot be explained in natural linguistic terms. The entire process is a type of word play (it’s a bit more complicated than that, but essentially that’s all it is).
 
guanophore said:
I did not find a reference on this passage. Apparently it is a source attempting to debunk the practice.
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Not sure what you’re looking for with respect to references. There are a number of studies (including my own - just unpublished notes) that have been done on this phenomenon.
 
If you begin (as some do) with the assumption that prayer in the spirit cannot be what it’s claimed to be, then of course you can explain it away.
 
Zaccheus said:
If you begin (as some do) with the assumption that prayer in the spirit cannot be what it’s claimed to be, then of course you can explain it away.
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I didn’t begin that way - when I first took a look at the phenomenon several years ago, I wasn’t quite sure what it was. I came into it with a very open mind hoping, in a way, to find something really cool. This was sort of something on the fringe edge of linguistics, something like studying so-called “twin languages” (languages some twins use between themselves). The more I studied it however, the less mysterious it became and I quickly recognized it for what it is - non-cognitive non-language utterance based upon the things described in my initial post.
 
Discussions on “tongues” generally seems to result in disagreements largely because people are defining the term “tongues” differently.

For some, what commonly happens at Catholic charismatic prayer groups is praying in “tongues,” even if there is no discernible connection to actual existing languages.

For others, “tongues” solely refers to people miraculously speaking an actual language that they don’t know (or being miraculously understood by people who don’t speak the same language).

Under the first definition, I know a lot of people who pray in tongues. I’ve known many “charismatics” in my life. And while it is not my preferred form of spiritual expression, I greatly respect and admire most of them. They are—by and large—good, holy people striving to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their life.

Under the second definition, I’ve only encountered it once. About 10 years back, a priest I knew was leading a high school retreat when the Spirit showed up in a big way. He heard kids speaking in Latin and Hebrew and they definitely did not know those languages. But he did, so he understood what they were saying.
 
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Joe_5859 said:
For others, “tongues” solely refers to people miraculously speaking an actual language that they don’t know (or being miraculously understood by people who don’t speak the same language).
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That would be something known as “xenoglossy” or “xenoglossia”. Unfortunately, there has never been a provable case of xenoglossy – anywhere. In all cases studied (including a few well-known ones) it was found that the speaker had had some exposure to the target language.

Most cases reported today in the Pentecostal/Charismatic community are anecdotal at best. Details are rather generic, there are just no specifics and typically reported third or more party. The speaker’s exposure to the target language is unknown, it’s unknown what exactly was said (a few words or a phrase repeated over and over, a short monologue, a dialogue, etc.). Was the utterance definitely language X, or did it just sound like language X – there are just too many variables in what is typically reported.

Something to think about - due to the nature of how it is produced, no two people will ever have the same “tongue”. That’s just fact. If indeed “tongues” were some sort of heavenly/angelic language, why would there ever be need for more than just one??
 
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I don’t speak in tongues but I know a lot of Catholics who do. I have a different gift.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I know a lot of people who pray in tongues. I’ve known many “charismatics” in my life. And while it is not my preferred form of spiritual expression, I greatly respect and admire most of them. They are—by and large—good, holy people striving to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their life.
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Agreed - I should have stated earlier; I’m not knocking the practice. It is a way for many to establish a closer relationship with the divine and strengthen their spiritual path - nothing wrong with that.

I do however think it’s important to know what exactly the phenomenon is and how it’s produced. I regard it as a ‘spiritual tool’, if you will. No different than chanting, meditation, etc. This is the same way that most cultures that practice it regard it.
 

I stand with St. Thomas Aquinas. I’ve taken for granted that tongues meant speaking in another human language through the gift of the Holy Spirit. I once attended a healing service where the Priest spoke in tongues and people were “Falling” in the Spirit. Needless to say, it wasn’t for me.
 
They said nice things about a visiting group.

None of those popes said that glossia nor falling out in the “spirit” are authentic.
 
Aquinas spoke of the same thing that has been evidenced by Saints since the Apostolic age: the ability to speak in or understand a real language that was not learned for the purpose of preaching/hearing the Gospel. For example, if my Bishop went to a remote Amazonian village and could speak their native language or went to Portugal and could suddenly understand Portuguese.

He did not speak of glossia. Glossia first appeared at the Azuza Street Revivals. You will find no record of it in any Church document.
 
I don’t hold the same view with respect to ‘gifts of the Holy Spirit’ or ‘spiritual gifts’ –

They were never referred to as “spiritual gifts”, but rather “spiritual matters/things”. Many people refer to these nine things as gifts; they are not, they are manifestations – the ‘evidence’, if you will, that the H/S is at work.

As you may know, there is actually only one place in the entire NT where the term “spiritual gifts” is used (Romans 1:11). After Paul uses the term, he then goes on to define it in verse 12: “that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” Not much there to support some sort of supernatural extraordinary meaning for the term. The meaning of “spiritual gift”, as Paul uses it, is pretty straightforward.

Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of believers describing spiritual ‘gifts’ and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.

I would argue that any natural God-given talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church at that time and perhaps also in that area of the world.

The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) therefore is not just a knack/ability for learning languages easily than others, but more so, as far as Paul was concerned, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.

The “gift of tongues” therefore, does not describe xenoglossia; the ability to speak a language one has never learned or been exposed to in any way, shape, or form.

It was always assumed to be xenoglossia based upon the Pentecostal narrative; however, there was no xenoglossia at Pentecost – the Apostles did not speak any language they didn’t already know…but that’s another story for another time.
 
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praying in tongues in the catholic charasmatic movement is praying in tongues.

its a real thing.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
praying in tongues in the catholic charasmatic movement is praying in tongues.

its a real thing.
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Yes, it’s a real thing, but not the thing most think it is or want it to be.

As I mentioned in a previous post, modern tongues is a tool, like chanting or meditation, etc. One can even call it a spiritual tool. It is a way by which one may establish a closer relationship with the divine and strengthen one’s spiritual path.

As a tool for this purpose, it’s a very real and spiritually meaningful experience. But it is a tool nonetheless – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.
 
What do you think most people in the Charismatic groups of the Catholic Church think they are doing?

Are you in a Charismatic prayer group.

That is the question of the op.
 
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Which part of my question?

You don’t understand this?

“”you might be surprised to learn one of the original Catholic Charismatics was/is. on CAF.
And a couple of times she spoke of what happened that weekend . Do a CAF search. hopefully that survived the move.””
 
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