Do you know people who pray in tongues?

[TheLittleLady]

Of course the Pope will be appreciative of people who earnestly pray for him. We can produce videos and photographs of popes doing all sorts of things. That does not make them part of the Deposit of Faith. Popes are not impeccable.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

so you havent watched that Mass? you speak as if the Church does not approve or accept this Charism , the Charismatic Group

 

[guanophore]

People see other people “babbling” in made up words from stringing together syllables and they imitate that. They learn this behavior.

I have observed this, and I think it is true.

So, if I understand correctly, the CC term “praying in the spirit” does not equate to “praying in tongues”?

There are many ways of praying in the spirit, of which prayer in tongues is only one.

Thanks - but whether praying or speaking, there’s no difference in what’s being produced or how it’s being produced; it’s all the same.

This is not the case. Speaking in tongues is purposed for the assembly, which is why Paul instructs that it should not be used without an interpretation.

Praying in tongues is to build up the believer (I have never met a believer that did not need edification) and is not intended for public interpretation.

I don’t plan ahead for prayer in the Spirit. I just do it.

I do attend a Charismatic prayer group but I don’t go there just to pray in tongues. I go there to pray and praise God together with others.

Nor do I pray in tongues only at the meetings. I do so at home as well.

This is consistent with my experience as well. But @whyeyeman seems to have more knowledge about our experiences than we do, and therefore, is able to make such pronouncements upon it.

 

[guanophore]

It seems like a private interpretation of scripture, combined with personal experience/research. It is a rather Protestant approach, come to think of it.

Because nobody did it for the first 1900 years of the church.

Since the ancient writers referred to this practice as a form of ecstasy, it is often difficult to discern the nature of the experience.

St Teresa of Avila described a form of prayer which she called “jubilation” — “a strange prayer I don’t understand.” She called it “a deep union of the faculties” and that “all [the soul’s] activity is directed to this praise (Interior Castle 6.6.10). This is a description of our experience.

You might consider
McDonnell, Kilian, and Montague, George T., Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries, The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minnesota, 1991.

John Paul II has given strong support to the Charismatic Renewal, as the following statement indicates:

I am convinced that this movement [charismatic renewal] is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church… I can understand all these different charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. - John Paul II

The Constitution on the Church (#13) of Vatican II, states that “the charismatic gifts… are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation.” Along with any gift comes the right and the duty to use it, but it is the Church’s job to test charisms, to find out if they are authentic and to ensure that they are being used properly.

He was likely influenced in this by Fr. Cantalemessa

Currently, I pray in Tongues without sound. I still yield my speech mechanism
to the Holy Spirit, but I do not use the breath/sound etc.

I do this too, especially when I am at work.

Happened in book of Acts, does not happen in a Catholic setting again until 1967 at Notre Dame. Not one dot of ink is spilled about this phenomena for 1930 ish years

It seems like a private interpretation of scripture, combined with personal experience/research. It is a rather Protestant approach, come to think of it.

 

[guanophore]

Because nobody did it for the first 1900 years of the church.

Since the ancient writers referred to this practice as a form of ecstasy, it is often difficult to discern the nature of the experience.

St Teresa of Avila described a form of prayer which she called “jubilation” — “a strange prayer I don’t understand.” She called it “a deep union of the faculties” and that “all [the soul’s] activity is directed to this praise (Interior Castle 6.6.10). This is a description of our experience.

You might consider
McDonnell, Kilian, and Montague, George T., Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries, The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minnesota, 1991.

Well, Santo António de Lisboa [some call him Saint Anthony of Padua] still has the fastest canonization of all time, and one reason might be that one day while preaching he “spoke in tongues” before the pope, several cardinals and a cathedral full of religious and lay.

This may be, but praying or speaking in tongues, as a charismatic gift, is not necessarily related to holiness. As Paul writes to the Corinthians, believers can be quite morally out of order, and yet experience spiritual gifts. In fact, it may be that they are needed even more in those who lack moral order and holiness.

 

[adgloriam]

adgloriam:

Well, Santo António de Lisboa [some call him Saint Anthony of Padua] still has the fastest canonization of all time, and one reason might be that one day while preaching he “spoke in tongues” before the pope, several cardinals and a cathedral full of religious and lay.

This may be, but praying or speaking in tongues, as a charismatic gift, is not necessarily related to holiness. As Paul writes to the Corinthians, believers can be quite morally out of order, and yet experience spiritual gifts. In fact, it may be that they are needed even more in those who lack moral order and holiness.

This specific instance by Santo António of Lisboa falls within the kind of miracle “for all to see” as if confirmation from God before the pope and cardinals themselves.

 

[guanophore]

As I have said before to many people, if someone can find me an official Church document that says Glossolalia is real, I will donate to the Charismatic Conference. I will put my money where my tongue is.

We receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments. At Baptism and Confirmation. Holy Mother Church has never taught otherwise.

I guess you don’t consider the Catholic Catechism to be an official Church document.

Of course the fullness of the HS is in the Sacraments! Do you think people that pray outside of the sacraments believe otherwise, or that we only pray during sacramental celebrations?

Of course the Pope will be appreciative of people who earnestly pray for him. We can produce videos and photographs of popes doing all sorts of things. That does not make them part of the Deposit of Faith.

It sounds like you don’t consider the New Testament to be an official Church document either!

 

[Zaccheus]

We receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments. At Baptism and Confirmation. Holy Mother Church has never taught otherwise.

Indeed so. And Holy Scripture is the inspired Word of God. Yet we do not believe nor practice Sola Scriptura.
We receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments; yet the Holy Spirit gives us gifts beyond that, and prayer in the Spirit is one such gift.

 

[grannymh]

1Corinthians, chapter 12
1Corinthians, chapter 14
answers a lot of questions

Please note that there are a few groups, who claim to be Catholic Charismatic
and in reality they are not totally following the real Renewal. It is the
responsibility of Catholics to address this situation. In the old days, I gave
the process when there was suspected errors.

Because technically, I am not here, please e-mail me in a real e-mail –
grannymh@ureach.com

 

[guanophore]

Because technically, I am not here, please e-mail me in a real e-mail

You are "here’ and your posts are visible on the thread. Are you able to go to the top of the thread to read thru? There are a couple folks here who reject what is written in 1 Cor. 12 & 14 as they have experienced something different (not genuine) as you described.

 

[grannymh]

There is an interesting option in this new platform which gives me a bit of
access. My computer, browser, or whatever it is is so old that I
cannot operate on this new platform. Thus, when this option appears
in my e-mail program, I have sadly learned that if I blink the wrong eye, I get
a notice at the top of the screen that I am not wanted. Sadly, one of
these days, I expect that this option will disappear.

I know I am too
old, but I do not remember recently talking here about the content of
1Corinthians chapters 12
& 14. In the old days, on the friendly to
old people CAF, I did clarify the content of those chapters.
There were some great Scripture battles. Personally, I believe that
common sense is a good way to understand St.
Paul in those particular
chapters. Actually, since I am here for the moment, maybe some of
those action-packed posts wiggled there way on to this thread.

Seriously, give me chapter and verse and a description of the difficulty,
and I will try to help.

Seriously, I saw a comment that the “Tongues”
(two) gifts had
disappeared for years. Who cares! Perhaps it is time to check the
definition of renewal which is a key word in the Catholic Charismatic
Renewal.

 

[Trishie]

BUt I can categorically state that for me it wasn’t ‘learned’.
I was totally puzzled to find I could pray in a strange language, especially in private adoration before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, my heart quietly and deeply moved.

Months later, I mentioned it to a younger sister who lives two days long drives away.
She was amazed.
She belonged to a charismatic prayer group, though she previously hadn’t mentioned it, nor had I previously heard of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, or of any charismatic activity and movement.
My sister said that she and her group had prayed for me to receive such gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I don’t belong to a charismatic group nor interact with any, I’m primarily Eucharistic-centric

I can start it, stop it, But not influence the sounds, and had instantaneous hymns of praise accompanying the language, with their own unfamiliar music, I’m not a musician.

I’m just describing what is. When I do engage the prayer, there is peace, sometimes gentle tears I’m not an hysterical sort of person and don’t trust some of the effusive behaviour I did witness during a brief subsequent encounter with mostly deeply devout and sincere people, but I only ever pray privately and often just when alone with Jesus, where I am very simple and calm and Jesus is very close.

It’s not something I usually talk about, even when threads come up in CAF.
But I owe the posters who are defending their charisms, or in the Deacon’s case, respecting them, some support as I can testify that I had no pre-knowledge, was in no group, and am resistant to anything that appears to be suspect, and reluctant to admit online that I do have a language I didn’t create, that uses unfamiliar sounds and different intonations to my normal speech, and is deeply calm, quiet, access my deepest self heart to heart with Jesus. I have let it lapse for some time, perhaps should more consistently use it.

On a side note while studying for English Honours, I also studied linguistics Medawlinno, it’s facinating isn’t it

 

[starlady]

Thank you for your testimony, Trishie.

 

[guanophore]

I have sadly learned that if I blink the wrong eye, I get a notice at the top of the screen that I am not wanted.

Who would dare to tell you that!? Let me at them!
I better be careful. I already got reported for being sarcastic.

I saw a comment that the “Tongues” (two) gifts had disappeared for years. Who cares! Perhaps it is time to check the definition of renewal which is a key word in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Tongues are being categorized as a Protestant infiltration.

I was totally puzzled to find I could pray in a strange language, especially in private adoration before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, my heart quietly and deeply moved.

I think this is one way to determine authenticity. We know them by their fruits. If the gift brings a person closer to Christ, and more drawn to the Sacramental life, it is a mark of authenticity.

is deeply calm, quiet, access my deepest self heart to heart with Jesus. I have let it lapse for some time, perhaps should more consistently use it.

I think this is an awesome testimony, and I appreciate you sharing it. I agree with you, it is important to be consistent in using every gift God gives to us. Spiritually edifying activities are like muscles, the more they are used, the stronger one becomes.

 

[anon10271182]

Re: the OP

I don’t know of anyone who prays in tongues. If tongues is a still-active gift of the Holy Spirit, its not my gift. My charisms are writing poetry and flash fiction, and teaching. Maybe a tendency toward a bit of prophecy, in my writing. Either way, I have a full plate.

 

[po18guy]

Tongues is the most visible gift, the most misunderstood and the most maligned. In some (not all) cases, believers are ignorant or even envious. Some may be repulsed, but again, it is from lack of knowledge. There are many other reasons why we fail to grasp or see the import in the supernatural realm. If you think it is just babbling, that is evidence that you do not have the gift of interpreting tongues. Why not leave it at that?

Again, it is a matter of education of those who do not know the charisms. Saint Paul teaches that we are not warring against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities - the spirit realm. Since this is freaky to a billion or so Catholics, they may shy away.

FACT: We are called to know our charism(s) and use them. Our Lord, in Matthew 25:14-30 was not speaking about good monetary investment practices. The parable of the “Talents” has a double meaning. Apply it to the gifts given us at Confirmation. We weill be called to account for what we did with them.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has, as its goal, to re-awaken the faith on an individual level, and to help believers discern their particular gift. Point to ponder: What if you have the gift of healing, but never knew it? Would you then face the Lord in confidence? Did He hesitate to use that gift?

NOTE: I have never uttered a single syllable in anything but English. Not my gift. But after the baptism in the Holy Spirit (NOT a Sacrament), my faith life came alive and I recognized my gifts. I then strove to put them to use. I must do this as long as I draw breath.

My advice and counsel: We had better take our Lord’s parable to heart and discern what He gave us, for He will come at a time that no one expects. Like in 5 minutes.

 

[po18guy]

Which web browser do you use? If you do not have Firefox, download that and give it a try. They upgrade it constantly and it will access sites that my ancient (2007) Safari will not.

 

[Reuben_J]

Praise God that this thread is going on quite decently. In the past, topic such as this could easily get derailed pretty fast. One time CAF put on a moratorium on it.

Perhaps it shows the Charismatic Renewal is not such a strange spirituality in the Catholic Church anymore. We have come a long way to reach this stage after fifty years when it first started. BTW, last year was the fiftieth anniversary of the CCR which the Holy Father celebrated in truly a big scale at the Vatican at Pentecost.

Tongue is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which is called the Charismatic gift - a supernatural charism by the Holy Spirit. As such it is nothing new. One can categorize the different manifestations of tongue, of course.

Personally I do not like to talk much on this topic though I want to. The reason is, it is not something that we can explain accurately. More often than not it invites misunderstanding from the listeners as well.

As a gift of the Holy Spirit, it is accepted by the Church as a genuine phenomenon. It is a matter of whether a person has it or not. It is hard to explain because it is hard to explain exoeriences, like how do we explain a smell or a taste?

We cannot size up the Holy Spirit and put Him in a box. He comes, does and gives as He will.

Basically the gift of tongue as has been said here are of two types, generally. Tongue as prophecy (speaking in tongue which need interpretation) and praying in tongue, which does not need interpretation.

The former is to upbuild the body, while the latter is to edify oneself. Both can be used in ministry.

Singing in tongue or the Spirit are the same thing. It’s a matter of laguage usage but when a person does it, probably they are doing the same thing.

We can speak and sing in tongue when we pray, like how we usually pray. Some people make a great deal in the terminology. I would say that is a mistake because we cannot really define it sufficiently.

Ultimately, it is the fruits of it. Is it good or bad fruit? We know a tree by its fruits.

There is a post here that say there are 160 million Catholic Charismatics. At best that is just a very generalized estimate. Charismatic Renewal is not strictly a movement nor it has clear numberable membership.

It is renewal of the faith by the power of the Holy Spirit as in Pentecost. We can just need a handful, and they can renew the world, because it is not by human power but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Generally people who come to the Renewal very often were lasped or nominal Catholics, but after being touched by the Holy Spirit they repented and became ardent Catholics. They in turn served the Lotd/Church to bring more Catholics/oeople to know God and to love the Church. Thus to renew the Church to make it more alive, more vibrant.

 

[thistle]

I was trying to find out what the Church Fathers thought about tongues and it would seem that they believed they died out in the post Apostolic Church which actually would be in-keeping with what Paul said in 1 Cor 13:8 which was "Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

I have attached a link to an article on the Church Fathers thoughts which makes sense to me but maybe not for ardent supporters of “tongues” which is a modern innovation since the Apostles time.

http://www.faithfulpreaching.com/The_Gift_of_Tongues_in_the_Post_Apostolic_Church.pdf

By the way I still believe that the ability to speak in tongues at the time of the Apostles was the ability to speak other foreign languages they had not learned. As a simple example, an Apostle might suddenly know German which he had not learned so if he spoke that in a crowd that did not know German then an interpreter, if in there, would translate for him.

 

[Reuben_J]

As long as we can maintain some civility on this thread , .

My personal opinion is that nobody really has an authority on this subject. It is also pointless to go into the Church Fathers for references, because nobody claim that as a basis. That makes this topic can become stalemated into a “I am right, you are wrong” argument.

As I mentioned, gift of tongue is often misunderstood because we already made a definition of it, and then start to support or dispute it from there.

Tongue as in 1 Cor 12 is very rare. Most Charismatics have not seen it. It depends on the charism that is found in the community concerned. It is when a person speaks in strange tongue and another person interprets it. In other word, this is prophesying (not foretelling).

The common speaking in tongue is the praying in tongue. That when we do not know to pray, we speak in word that we cannot understand. The Holy Spirit takes over and we pray perfect prayers from God. This is a useful gift especially in ministry (to pray for others).

Nevertheless in both, they have to be discerned by another Charismatic gift - the gift of Discernment (of the Spirit). Admittedly probably most of them are not real, meaning they are just from the human spirit. There were even incidents that they can come from the Evil spirit.

More importantly is whether to believe this charismatic gift exists or not. If we do not believe in it, and if the Holy Spirit does give this gift, then we are unbelieving. If we ridicule the gift, then it is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

We should not despise them - disbelieve or dismiss them out of hand but rather to put them into the test.

Paul encountered the Holy Spirit (Jesus) on the road to Damascus. He had scales taken off his eyes to see/believe.

About Charismatic gifts died out with the apostles - this is true as observed along the centuries.

Charismatic gifts were abound with the early Christians to jump start the faith but after Christianity was stabilized, the gifts seemed to be phased out.

There is a story about St. Augustine when he was a Bishop. A woman came up to him to ask him to pray over her son. Lo and behold, the son was miraculously healed, and realized that God could still intervene.

We need to have expectant faith that the Holy Spirit works in our lives. Jesus promised them. It is by faith that we are healed. God grants us if we ask for the Holy Spirit (Lk 11:13).

So when the Church prayed for a new Pentecost (in 1959), would not God hear the prayers of His Church? When we are weak, would not we ask God for help and that He will help us?

The action of the Holy Spirit is nothing new. The New Testament and the Church have plenty of them.