Do you love the Catholic Church because you love Jesus or love Jesus because love the Catholic Church?

[Rozellelily]

I’m not at all moved by converts who come into the Church and carry on like pork chops though like Taylor Marshall)

Taylor Marshall is the kind of think I am referring to.
There seems to be many “self declared” experts in USA type Catholic religion (perhaps other religion in general too) on the internet.
A lot of experts in theology but maybe not enough experts in unity?
Is this a good thing necessarily though or should theology be left to priests and nuns?
Even scholar in Theology in University can maybe “lead astray” if not led by Holy Spirit and only by own academic mind understanding?

Some know the “ins and outs” in their sleep of everything Catholic doctrine and tradition, are “very big Catholics” and will defend it to the death if necessary, some become very political etc…but the “fruits” seem often arguing and hurt feelings.

Don’t we truly become expert by not thinking we are expert, or am I wrong?

(I don’t mean the people who have person or family blog or YouTube talking about their personal individual experiences but more people who make themselves experts of the religion).

 

[Theban]

Some know the “ins and outs” in their sleep of everything Catholic doctrine and tradition, are “very big Catholics” and will defend it to the death if necessary, some become very political etc…but the “fruits” seem often arguing and hurt feelings.

So, reading between the lines in this thread, it seems to me that what you are asking here is whether a good catholic should focus on being an apologist, or focus on doing charitable works. That is a good question, and brings up a unique aspect of the Catholic Church.

In the Catholic Church there is room for all kinds of people and all kinds of ways of serving God. A stern theologian like Thomas Aquinas and a joyful troubadour like Francis of Assisi are both great examples of good Catholics, despite their differences.

I sense from your posts that you are more sympathetic to Saint Francis than Saint Thomas, and that is perfectly fine. You don’t have to be an apologist, or even be very knowledgeable about the faith to find a place within the Universal Church. One saint, whose name slips my mind, was a priest who could not even remember a single Bible verse, and he is still a Saint.

You are free to pursue any good works that you like and think glorifies God as a Catholic. That includes people who wish to devote themselves to theology and apologia. I understand that you might not have much need for people like Taylor Marshall and arguments to maintain or grow your faith, but others like me do. I don’t think it’s very charitable to criticize someone as a bad Catholic who is only trying to do good by God, even if the fruit of said attempt is not always optimal.

 

[po18guy]

In my case, the correct answer to both is yes.

 

[Rozellelily]

sense from your posts that you are more sympathetic to Saint Francis than Saint Thomas,

Yes I think its probably true to some degree. I do see Saint Thomas (I presume is referring to Thomas Aquinas?) as being relevant for his times though.

Taylor Marshall and arguments to maintain or grow your faith, but others like me do. I don’t think it’s very charitable to criticize someone as a bad Catholic who is only trying to do good by God, even if the fruit of said attempt is not always optimal.

I’m very sorry if I gave that impression. I should have worded it differently. I’m sure he’s much more better Catholic than I am.
I don’t mean regarding an individual specifically, but around the whole notion of “modern day online apologism /theologists“ seems to be primarily a USA culture one. There is no such thing as apologist in my culture background where I live ( or even a word for it) or most of Europe and Asia.
The people that study Theology in Europe and Australia usually work more in Academic type settings.

Perhaps these things are good in a way because they stimulate conversation. Maybe some people feel they don’t learn enough “depth” from weekly Mass in person, but at same I can’t help wonder is it wise of persons to position themselves as teachers/leader if they haven’t directly been given this role by the Vatican.
Particularly when some of conversations & people lead to public criticism of the Pope.
Can any “average man or woman” - think they are so wiser than the Pope that is chosen by the Holy Spirit?
If Catholic Church want/support apology theologists, i would think they would have employed and encouraged them in every country? There needs to be a great responsibility and carefulness for these sort of public things especially considering there is lot of anti Christian sentiment in “western world” and some people are looking for something negative.

( I do agree with some things Taylor Marshall etc says, but maybe these things best left for lounge room).

 

[Rozellelily]

Us average persons can think know the “laws” etc of Catholic Church inside out in entirety but Pope and priest apply these “laws”in the light and interpretation of “Gods spirit”. (I am not explaining with good words but I hope it makes sense what I am trying to articulate)

Is this why some Catholics didn’t like that the Pope said that some divorced couple can receive Holy communion in some circumstances because they interpret very things very literally and rigid but the Pope understands with context of Holy Spirit?
They perceive it as changing of set doctrine. Or am I misunderstanding it?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think taxi drivers should be allowed to refuse things that could damage or cause smell to the car if it is their car.
Is there a point though when it can go too far?
If the couple was trying to impose on driver to actually eat some of ham this I would understand.
Some time ago, there were complaint made because some Muslim taxi drivers here refused to accept blind peoples guide dogs as some Muslims believe dogs are unclean.

In USA we have laws that pretty much say service dogs are allowed everywhere. So if you don’t allow a blind person’s dog in your cab, your shop etc then you’re breaking the law and you’re also probably going to get some big viral negative publicity. A Muslim driver would have to let the dog into his cab or there would be legal consequences. If he can’t do that then he should not be driving a cab, or owning a business that would have to let dogs in.

In a country that isn’t majority Muslim, the need for a blind person to get around is going to be seen as more important than the views of Muslims towards dogs. In a country that is majority Muslim, then maybe different views would apply, but presumably they would find another way to help the blind person.

In Christianity we don’t have these sorts of issues, because the welfare of a person in need would always take precedence and we don’t have such an emphasis on religious “uncleanness”. I think most modern religions have gravitated in the same direction, including a lot of Muslims nowadays.

 

[Brendan_64]

Can any “average man or woman” - think they are so wiser than the Pope that is chosen by the Holy Spirit?

I do not intend to knock the papacy, but the Pope is not actually chosen by the Holy Spirit, he is chosen by the Cardinals who are part of the conclave (and not all cardinals necessarily vote for the same person). One would hope that when each cardinal places his vote that he is guided through his prayer, devotion and conscience to choose who he believes is best suited.

Is the eventual choice part of God’s plan for the Church? I would definitely think so, but it is the college of Cardinals who make the choice (by a 2/3 or greater majority according to the current rule, I think).

 

[Theban]

but at same I can’t help wonder is it wise of persons to position themselves as teachers/leader if they haven’t directly been given this role by the Vatican.
Particularly when some of conversations & people lead to public criticism of the Pope.

The Vatican has never, to my knowledge, discouraged people who are knowledgeable about the Faith from sharing their knowledge. There are only so many priests and theologians after all, and as long as what is taught is orthodox all is well. Calumnising the Pope is different matter, though. It may be warranted to criticize some of the Popes actions in certain apologetic situations, but I agree that it is often taken too far.

the whole notion of “modern day online apologism /theologists“ seems to be primarily a USA culture one.

I’ve never been to the US, but I think this perception comes from the fact that the USA are the dominant power in the English world right now, and so many aspects of the English online and literary culture is dominated by Americans. Lay apologists are not an American-only phenomenon, however, as people like C. S. Lewis and G. K. Chesterton have been around for a long time.

Us average persons can think know the “laws” etc of Catholic Church inside out in entirety but Pope and priest apply these “laws”in the light and interpretation of “Gods spirit”. (I am not explaining with good words but I hope it makes sense what I am trying to articulate)

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it seems like you’re saying that the Holy Spirit helps clergy understand the laws of the Church in a way ordinary lay people can’t. If so, then that is not entirely true. Clergy are not infallible, and the laws of the Church are fortunately not so complicated as to require divine intervention to make clear.

Of course, we generally can trust the Clergy to have a solid grip on what the Church teaches, and any layman should think twice about it before contradicting, say, the Pope. Nevertheless, when it happens that a member of the Clergy, no doubt by some honest mistake, does contradict the Teachings of the Church, the layman is not wrong to correct him.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Of course, people belong to the religion, and Christ isn’t the center of their lives.

Having the title “Catholic,” doesn’t make a person a Christian. Often, they’re the cause of people turning away from Jesus Christ.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I know very, very few who are orthodox.

How do you define “orthodox”?

The Church gives us the Precepts of the Church, this is considered by every clergy, religious, to be definition of a practicing Catholic. Kind of the “bare minimum”

 

[TheLittleLady]

Is the eventual choice part of God’s plan for the Church?

The eventual choice is part of God’s permissive will. God knows the outcome of every papal election ahead of time. He still allows the cardinals free will to select the man they wish.

 

[Sarcelle]

For me it was the chicken or egg thing.

As an atheist, I respected Jesus and his teachings but it was the Catholic Church that really drove home to me the fact that Jesus was not just any religious leader on par with Buddha or Mohammed.

How did the Church do that?

Through the Eucharist. If that isn’t divine love I don’t know what else it should be.

Once I learned about the Eucharist, I just knew I had to be Catholic. To me the Blessed Sacrament is the most beautiful thing ever.

 

[Kindnessmatters]

I don’t personally redefine the word. In English, the term “orthodox” means conforming with and accepting what is generally accepted as true.

So a Roman Catholic who is Orthodox would be one who conforms with and practices the faith without picking, choosing and taking exception with the teaching of the faith.

Applied to sin, I would say orthodox people may very well sin…perhaps the very devout Sr.Therese has a problem with gambling away her personal funds to a point it becomes a burden to her order to additionally cover her basic needs, and then lies about how she spent the money. Well, if she is giving in to compulsion but knows and believes she is sinning, I would say she is struggling with sin. It’s not a question of orthodoxy…she accepts church teaching, and let’s say she tries hard to resist, but she is giving into a difficult weakness.

As another matter, say Joe has been taught he should only go to communion in a state of Grace, and should confess regularly to achieve this. He has decided for himself that confession is “dumb” and that he will skip that part of the faith. He also has “no problem” with sex outside of marriage and thinks the church should “stay out of his bedroom”, so has no qualms about living with his girlfriend. This is not only gravely sinful but also unorthodox as he doesn’t even accept the church’s position and teaching that his behaviours are sinful.

So when I speak of an increase in what I see as orthodox behaviors, I am referencing, for example, a noticeable increase in the number of people in line for confession each week. Mass had always been near capacity in the few years I have attended my parish, but I rarely saw people in line for confession. Now I get there when confession starts and commonly, people keep coming the entire set time and I find ten or fifteen people in line the entire time. One priest used to sit in the confessional with nobody to talk to, and now two priests struggle to serve everyone.

There are other expressions of faith whether a woman wears a mantilla to mass, s teen shows interest in studying EF mass, a man takes to wearing a scapular…I don’t know that these are indications inandof themselves of orthodoxy, but unless it’s just for show (which I would not presume of anyone) such choices communicate to me that the individual is seeking greater communion with God and the Church and is seeking means to be more prayerful, so I view them as signs of growth in orthodoxy.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Is this why some Catholics didn’t like that the Pope said that some divorced couple can receive Holy communion in some circumstances because they interpret very things very literally and rigid but the Pope understands with context of Holy Spirit?

Holy Communion is special and deserves reverence, so being worried is not rigid. I think you’re forgetting the opposite which is being too loose and allowing every whim and fancy that comes across the mind.

 

[rachelbernadette]

I’ve journeyed to several different faiths and always come “home” to Catholicism. It’s home to my heart and soul and that’s the best way to describe it. Whether or not we are articulate as lawyers (remember , many of the saints were simple people with simple messages, like therese and bernadette). , the important thing is that we discern and know what is true. I’ve travelled and come back again many times because this is the faith and my soul knows it.
God Bless

 

[Rozellelily]

I understand, but i would think the Pope puts a lot of thought and prayers into decisions like this and isn’t just his own personal thought?

 

[Rozellelily]

I personally thought that while Cardinals were “technically” choosing, God was inspiring them who to choose. I know some vote for different choice but I thought the “winner” was ultimately Gods will.

If it is just Gods permissive will, and they can choose anyone, based off individual personality human factors, doesn’t that inspire a lack of confidence they could make wrong choice?

I’m sure Catholics pray for Gods will in this/right choice for Pope.

I always thought that the Pope chosen was right for our times.

Otherwise, if it is just “random choice” it almost then became like God doesn’t have a hand in our things in life?

 

[TheLittleLady]

We have human will. The cardinals have free will, God does not force them to vote for one man over another. There have been some bad popes in the history of the Church.

Chamberlain’s book by that title is a good read. That book encourages me because it shows that no matter how flawed, how sinful, how broken the man is who is pope, God protects His Church. No pope, no matter how “bad”, has ever spoken ex cathedra in error. God protects His Church.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I understand, but i would think the Pope puts a lot of thought and prayers into decisions like this and isn’t just his own personal thought?

How these decisions come to be isn’t clear, but the Holy Father is also busy so he doesn’t have the time to plan or thoroughly check everything.

 

[phil19034]

Beryllos:

The sort who sign up for CAF and post frequently are going to be the ones who read and think about theology, Scripture, and Church teaching. The ones who create Catholic websites and blogs will be even more so.

I think it is a good point.
I have noticed there are a lot of Christian (of all sorts) blogs and websites from USA Christians.
Here we have hardly any and any that do exist are just family type blog with no theology thoughts and theology is really left for priests here.

Most likely, this is just a reflection of population size differences

Per 2017 numbers, Australia has 24.6 million people. While the US (per Aug 2019 estimates) has 329.45 million people.

If we assume that 3% of Christians (I just made up the number) in both nations are like the typical CAF poster you are talking about 738,000 people spread out all over Australia vs 9.9 million people in the US.

The population difference makes it easier for American based Catholic groups and individuals to fundraise in order to run Catholic media (TV, Radio, Internet, newspapers, magazines, etc).

Same thing happens with the other denominations.

ALSO, I think a key difference is that United States has a much more significant population size living in rural areas (both in numbers and percentages)

People in rural areas (esp farming areas) tend to be more religious than urban dwellers. So our larger rural population increases the size of our donating public.

I hope I’m making sense (I’m typing on an iPhone)