Do you support the Minutemen? Well don't

[Dale_M]

it is from our southern border that the terorists have tried to cross. This has been proven.

Ahmed Ressam, driving a car with 100 pounds of explosives enroute to blow up an airport, came from Canada. Canadian asylum laws are very accomodating and its government has been slow to beef up its anti-terrorism screening and investigation.

And, of course, the 911 hijackers were in the U.S. with legal visas.

I don’t think we should be pointing the finger at Mexico.

 

[sprout]

---

Then you should be standing firmly for this: Does not seem the immigrant who enters this country illegally is following Church teaching —when in the first place—they break the law to enter.

CCC

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7W.HTM

2241…
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

Walking Home,

As a practising Catholic when I cross the border into a foreign country I do try and make myself aware of the laws of that country so as to abide by them. It is not my place to judge whether an immigrant who enters this country unlawfully is following Church teaching. He/She may be entering unlawfully because they have no other viable options and it’s not my place to “read their souls” to determine their guilt.

What’s more important to me, though, is that injustice to immigrants is one of the seven sins that “cry out to heaven for vengeance”. It is ranked with murder of the innocent in its gravity:

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,[139] the sin of the Sodomites,[140] the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,[141] the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,[142] injustice to the wage earner.[143]

the CCC also says:

1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks** the common good** of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, “authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse.”

the Catechism also goes on to define the Common Good:

1906 By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily."26 The common good concerns the life of all…

1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. …

1911 …The unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to "provide for the different needs of men; this will involve the sphere of social life to which belong questions of food, hygiene, education, . . . and certain situations arising here and there, as for example . . . alleviating the miseries of refugees dispersed throughout the world, and assisting migrants and their families."29

1912
The common good is always oriented towards the progress of persons: "The order of things must be subordinate to the order of persons, and not the other way around."30 This order is founded on truth, built up in justice, and animated by love.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking Home,

As a practising Catholic when I cross the border into a foreign country I do try and make myself aware of the laws of that country so as to abide by them. It is not my place to judge whether an immigrant who enters this country unlawfully is following Church teaching. He/She may be entering unlawfully because they have no other viable options and it’s not my place to “read their souls” to determine their guilt.

What’s more important to me, though, is that injustice to immigrants is one of the seven sins that “cry out to heaven for vengeance”. It is ranked with murder of the innocent in its gravity:

the CCC also says:

the Catechism also goes on to define the Common Good:

Walking Home,

As a practising Catholic when I cross the border into a foreign country I do try and make myself aware of the laws of that country so as to abide by them. It is not my place to judge whether an immigrant who enters this country unlawfully is following Church teaching. He/She may be entering unlawfully because they have no other viable options and it’s not my place to “read their souls” to determine their guilt.

What’s more important to me, though, is that injustice to immigrants is one of the seven sins that “cry out to heaven for vengeance”. It is ranked with murder of the innocent in its gravity:

Quote:
1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,[139] the sin of the Sodomites,[140] the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,[141] the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,[142] injustice to the wage earner.[143]

the CCC also says:

Quote:
1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, “authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse.”

the Catechism also goes on to define the Common Good:

Quote:
1906 By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily."26 The common good concerns the life of all…

1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. …

1911 …The unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to "provide for the different needs of men; this will involve the sphere of social life to which belong questions of food, hygiene, education, . . . and certain situations arising here and there, as for example . . . alleviating the miseries of refugees dispersed throughout the world, and assisting migrants and their families."29

1912
The common good is always oriented towards the progress of persons: "The order of things must be subordinate to the order of persons, and not the other way around."30 This order is founded on truth, built up in justice, and animated by love.

---

I as well–as a practicing Catholic --when I cross into another country–try to make myself aware and follow that country’s laws—beginning with—not entering that country illegally.

One thing you need to understand—the Church is not going to have teaching that contradicts moral law or the common good.

CCC 2241—does not contradict moral law and it protects the common good of the people in this country.

So don’t try to use other sections of the CCC to abrogate CCC 2241.

 

[sprout]

---

One thing you need to understand—the Church is not going to have teaching that contradicts moral law or the common good.

CCC 2241—does not contradict moral law and it protects the common good of the people in this country.

So don’t try to use other sections of the CCC to abrogate CCC 2241.

???
I don’t understand your point? Are you suggesting I’m quoting the Catechism to abrogate the Catechism?

I also fail to understand how any of the CCC quotes I’ve posted could be interpreted as abrogating this:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

The way I am reading the above is that when unjust laws are made that require me to disobey God’s commands (see the sins that cry out to God for vengeance) then I am to refuse obediance to them.

 

[Walking_Home]

???
I don’t understand your point? Are you suggesting I’m quoting the Catechism to abrogate the Catechism?

I also fail to understand how any of the CCC quotes I’ve posted could be interpreted as abrogating this:
Quote:
2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, **to obey its laws **and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

The way I am reading the above is that when unjust laws are made that require me to disobey God’s commands (see the sins that cry out to God for vengeance) then I am to refuse obediance to them.

---

To a person who does not believe a country has the right to have laws to regulate immigration—the law will will be seen as disobedience to God’s command.

 

[sprout]

---

To a person who does not believe a country has the right to have laws to regulate immigration—the law will will be seen as disobedience to God’s command.

I have not claimed that I do not believe a country has the right to regulate immigration.

I claim that I follow the teachings of the Church. I’ve quoted those teachings that I follow from the Catechism so there should be no doubt as to what my beliefs are.

It’s not very honest or charitable for you to make such rash judgments about someone you don’t know. I’ll forgive you this time, but don’t do it again.

 

[Walking_Home]

I have not claimed that I do not believe a country has the right to regulate immigration.

I claim that I follow the teachings of the Church. I’ve quoted those teachings that I follow from the Catechism so there should be no doubt as to what my beliefs are.

It’s not very honest or charitable for you to make such rash judgments about someone you don’t know. I’ll forgive you this time, but don’t do it again.

---

The following is also a teaching. You seem to be using other teachings to say CCC 2241 is against your conscience. It does not seem likely that the Churches teachings are to be used in such a manner.

By the way–I don’t fall for your type of game (I forgive you this time etc). I posted the correct Church teaching on the subject of immigration.

CCC

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7W.HTM

2241…
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

 

[JW10631]

Mexico has long harbored a policy of forcing its poor people into the US so the Mexican government won’t have to deal with them. Vicente Fox wanted to hand out “kits” to help poor Mexicans to survive when crossing the border and traversing through the American Southwest.

Mexico doesn’t let “illegal aliens” stay in Mexico at all. If they are caught in Mexico they are shipped back.

Successive Mexican governments have proven themselves unwilling to eliminate the culture of corruption that permeates Mexican government operations or to do anything about the oligarchy that has a strangehold on Mexican wealth.

Mexico has everything necessary to be a successful, prosperous country. It has a better climate, more arable land and more natural resources than Japan.

Why, then, are there so many poor Mexicans while the nations of Southeast Asia, most of which have very few natural resources, are economic “tigers”?

Maro Vargas Llosa wrote an excellent book, “The Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot”. For far too long, the intellectual elite in Latin America has pointed its finger at the United States, blaming the US for all of their problems while idolizing tyrants like Castro.

Peruvian economist Ponce de Leon pointed out the structural difficulties in starting and maintaining a business through much of Latin America. The red tape is staggering.

The Mexican schools teach how the US “stole” Mexican territory. Yet, they are quiet about the Central American republics that broke away from Mexico in the early 19th century. Well, the citizens of Texas didn’t want to be ruled by Santa Ana, and, as it turned out, neither did the rest of Mexico. As for the Mexican War, no war was more despised by the US citizens until Vietnam. The US paid Mexico for the land, which was sparsely populated and not at all controlled by Mexico in any significant way. As successive Mexican governments have shown themselves unable to govern - the Calles dictatorship that decided to repress the Catholic Church and kill priests is just one example - the War of 1848 is not why Mexico faces its difficulties of today.

 

[sprout]

You seem to be using other teachings to say CCC 2241 is against your conscience.

Not so.

in the second portion of CCC 2241 it shows not only the soveriegn governments responsibilities but also the obligations of those entering the country.

I’m neither a soveriegn nation or entering another country. I’m a Catholic trying to live out my faith as taught by my Church. I can’t comment on the actions of people who enter this country other than to speculate on why, and according to Catholic teaching I am to give a more positive judgment for their actions than not.

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.277 He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
  2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
  vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm

I do think that the majority of those entering are coming here to work in order to feed their families. A situaton we have forced on to Latin American countries through NAFTA and now CAFTA. Since NAFTA went into effect in 1994, 1.3 million Mexican peasant farmers have lost their livelihoods, Mexican industrial wages have declined, nearly 30,000small independent businesses have collapsed, and annual immigration from Mexico to the United States increased 60 percent in the first six years of the pact alone.

“NAFTA displaced 1.5 million Mexican peasant farmers. Many of these displaced farmers sought industrial jobs, causing Mexican wages to drop by 20 percent. Communities and families were torn asunder as those who lost their livelihoods undertook the perilous journey to the United States in hopes of finding some way to support their family.” Bishop Álvaro Ramazzini of San Marcos, Guatemala
ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005d/111105/111105w.php

Pope Benedict XVI has said

‘We cannot remain passive before certain processes of globalization which not infrequently increase the gap between the rich and the poor worldwide. We must denounce those who squander the earth’s riches, provoking inequalities that cry out to heaven.’

Additionally, since the pope and bishops in union with him have cited certain scriptures in their pastoral teachings (see “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”) and

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

I think it’s incumbent on me to follow these pastoral teachings in forming my conscience on how I am to respond to my neighbor. Again, I am not responsible for how & why foreigners come to be here. I am responsible for how I treat them once they are here.

**Pacem in Terris **(Pope John XXIII, 1963)
Among man’s personal rights we must include his right to enter a country in which he hopes to be able to provide more fittingly for himself and his dependents. It is therefore the duty of state officials to accept immigrants and—so far as the good of their own community, rightly understood, permits—to further the aims of those who may wish to become members of a new society. [106]

Gaudium et Spes (Second Vatican Council, 1965)
When workers come from another country or district and contribute to the economic advancement of a nation or region by their labor, all discrimination as regards wages and working conditions must be carefully avoided. All the people, moreover, above all the public authorities, must treat them not as mere tools of production but as persons, and must help them to bring their families to live with them and to provide themselves with a decent dwelling; they must also see to it that these workers are incorporated into the social life of the country or region that receives them. [66.1]

 

[Walking_Home]

Not so.

in the second portion of CCC 2241 it shows not only the soveriegn governments responsibilities but also the obligations of those entering the country.

I’m neither a soveriegn nation or entering another country. I’m a Catholic trying to live out my faith as taught by my Church. I can’t comment on the actions of people who enter this country other than to speculate on why, and according to Catholic teaching I am to give a more positive judgment for their actions than not.

I do think that the majority of those entering are coming here to work in order to feed their families. A situaton we have forced on to Latin American countries through NAFTA and now CAFTA. Since NAFTA went into effect in 1994, 1.3 million Mexican peasant farmers have lost their livelihoods, Mexican industrial wages have declined, nearly 30,000small independent businesses have collapsed, and annual immigration from Mexico to the United States increased 60 percent in the first six years of the pact alone.

Pope Benedict XVI has said

Additionally, since the pope and bishops in union with him have cited certain scriptures in their pastoral teachings (see “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”) and

I think it’s incumbent on me to follow these pastoral teachings in forming my conscience on how I am to respond to my neighbor. Again, I am not responsible for how & why foreigners come to be here. I am responsible for how I treat them once they are here.

---

Look–The Church has spoken on this matter. Whether you agree or not—that is up to you.

 

[jman507]

I have not claimed that I do not believe a country has the right to regulate immigration.

I claim that I follow the teachings of the Church. I’ve quoted those teachings that I follow from the Catechism so there should be no doubt as to what my beliefs are.

It’s not very honest or charitable for you to make such rash judgments about someone you don’t know. I’ll forgive you this time, but don’t do it again.

I guess that’s fine. Do you think that a state has no right to regulate how funding for education and social payment transfers occur? If so, I’m sure if we have enough people who can get in the US and can enroll in those programs, eventually the programs will get so diluted no one will get much unless they can pay for what ever they need themselves.

 

[sprout]

---

Look–The Church has spoken on this matter. Whether you agree or not—that is up to you.

Likewise:thumbsup:

 

[AdvanceAlways]

What part about laws don’t some of you understand?! Some of you seem to want a theocracy where the CCC governs America. We are obligated to obey the laws of our nation. Illegals have NO right to be here and we have no right to take care of them. I invite some of you to come down to DC and look at the poor and homeless on the street who can’t get jobs and forced to live in poverty due to illegal immigrants. I invite you to come to Northern Virginia and talk to those of us whose lives have been changed by MS13 and other street gangs made up of illegals. These people are murderers and criminals, not innocent “migrant workers.”

 

[jj2011]

What part about laws don’t some of you understand?! Some of you seem to want a theocracy where the CCC governs America.

Actually I’d settle for getting Catholics to acknowledge Church teaching, from Pius XII of holy memory to the present, that migrants have certain rights and should be treated with justice and charity.

 

[jj2011]

I invite you to come to Northern Virginia and talk to those of us whose lives have been changed by MS13 and other street gangs made up of illegals. These people are murderers and criminals, not innocent “migrant workers.”

That’s interesting. When I mentioned the presence of neo-Nazi volunteers in minutemen activities, I was accused of the guilt-by-association fallacy. Now I find this blatant attempt to stir up passions and create inferences of guilt by association.

Would the gentleman care to tell us how many of the millions of migrants in this country, in his estimation, are part of “MS13 and other street gangs”?

 

[jj2011]

People have to make up their minds whether they want to follow church teaching or the Minutemen arguments.

In the category of church teaching, for those who care to study it, is the following document from Pius XII, where he affirms a right to migrate based on conditions of unemployment and hunger.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/p12exsul.htm

 

[Brushy]

I am a minuteman. I just got back from Campo God created us as nations. He gave us foreign languages. God is Sovereign, so I protect the soverenity of the United States.

 

[Walking_Home]

People have to make up their minds whether they want to follow church teaching or the Minutemen arguments.

In the category of church teaching, for those who care to study it, is the following document from Pius XII, where he affirms a right to migrate based on conditions of unemployment and hunger.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/p12exsul.htm

---

You mean this Church teaching:

CCC

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7W.HTM

2241…
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

 

[jj2011]

---

You mean this Church teaching:

CCC

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7W.HTM

2241…
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

I don’t have a problem with the CCC passage cited. It would be nice if folks on the other side in this discussion acknowledged the validity of the teachings I cited. The fact is that the Church has affirmed certain rights of migrants.

 

[sprout]

What part about laws don’t some of you understand?! Some of you seem to want a theocracy where the CCC governs America. We are obligated to obey the laws of our nation. Illegals have NO right to be here and we have no right to take care of them. I invite some of you to come down to DC and look at the poor and homeless on the street who can’t get jobs and forced to live in poverty due to illegal immigrants. I invite you to come to Northern Virginia and talk to those of us whose lives have been changed by MS13 and other street gangs made up of illegals. These people are murderers and criminals, not innocent “migrant workers.”

re: the Church & Theocracy

I put Church teaching above nationalism. The Church is “Catholic” which means universal and has no borders.

It is so ethnocentric to refer to the US as America, especially when you are discussing immigration which involves other “Americans”, our neighbors to the south. FYI: America is the name of a region considered a single continent composed of South America, North America, the land bridge of Central America, and the islands of the Antillas. America consists of the following nations:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Cuba
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras
Jamaica
Mexico
Nicaragua
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Suriname
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

Roman Catholicism is the most prevalent religion in these American nations.

As far as to looking first to the Church, well I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again here.

I was raised in the military, I’m an Air Force Brat.
I was raised Catholic, I’m a cradle Catholic.

My father, a Veteran, decorated war hero (the distinguished Soldier’s Medal recipient), and lifer always taught me I was to order my alliegance thus:

God/Church
Country
Family

Most people put family before country, but since we were in the military we put country before family but NEVER country before God.

Now since I am a believer I put God first. Since God has given as His first Commandment that I am to love my neighbor as myself then that’s what I’m gonna do even if my country tells me otherwise. Thing is, my country isn’t telling me otherwise. My country does not (as yet) criminalize those who are here without proper documentation.

Unflawful entry is a crime, but it is not treated or handled as such. Person’s caught red handed **entering the country **without proper documentation are simply sent back or in some cases “processed” then sent back. Unlawful Presence (most of the folks that are here “without documentation”) is not a crime, it is a civil offense the same as any other civil offense i.e someone pirating music or cutting and pasting entire documents without giving credit to the author.