Do you support the Minutemen? Well don't

[Walking_Home]

You know what—sprout, JW1063. Letting you and the immigrants dictate how this Country is to be run—will not help the immigrants in the long run. The problem is NOT this country—it is with their home country.

If you are serious about helping them—move to Mexico, etc. Rally for reform in that country—so that peoples needs will be met.

 

[jmj603]

I put Church teaching above nationalism. The Church is “Catholic” which means universal and has no borders.

But Her members are nationals and need to act as full citizens, or else they may appear to be the enemies of the very people they have been put on earth to convert. Catholics are not here in America to convert the people of Sudan.

It is so ethnocentric to refer to the US as America…America consists of the following nations:

How many have the word “America” in their name?

Since God has given as His first Commandment that I am to love my neighbor as myself

Your “neighbor” is first and foremost the people closest to you. Yes, it includes the illegal living in a shack down the street, but also all the citizens and legals in the houses in between, and most especially the ones you think are intolerable rednecks and racists, because God has also told you to love your enemies. Many miles away from you is the Mexican who hasn’t yet crossed the Rio Grande.

 

[Brushy]

It is my Christian duty to defend our border from foreign invasion. I stand like Asa, building walls and “every man his sword.”
The Bible mentions borders over 200 times.
The deplorable economic condtions in Mexico isn’t my problem.
I place the blame at the food of the Mexican government. God takes a dim view of those who “rub the face of the poor into the dirt.”
The “Reconquesta of Azlan” is not about assumulation. They intend to take over. Establish their mythical land of Azlan and return to the anchent pagan religon of the Aztecs, which includes human sacrafice and cannabalism.

 

[KofC660]

Face it, the Protestant White Europeans of the United States had a good 400 year run, but they are going to be buried by the Catholic Brown Indians - the people to whom Spain brought the Faith, but, out of compassion, did not exterminate (unlike what the English did in the rest of N. America).

WASPs, there’s nothing you can do; the Brown Catholics will not be assimilated - to paraphrase Nikita Khrushchev:

THEY WILL BURY YOU!!!

 

[CLearthinking04]

Why doesn’t the Catholic League and the Church it self approach this whole problem with common sense and see the bigger picture?

The minutemen are frightened individuals. They are frightened by unrestricted and unlawful immigration, which the Church supports. They are turning on the Church because the Church placed itself behind the wrong cause and now this attack on Catholics, while morally wrong is to be expected.

Instead of supporting the over-running of the US health care system by undocumented immigration and the potential for terrorist entry into the US, not to mention tax base erosion and the issue of jobs, why not fight for legal entry for immigrants. Why not get behind the idea of getting the proper resources allocated to promote legal entry with all the protections to the US to prevent criminals and terrorists from entry and adding to the tax base. This way existing US citizens and immigrants (new citizens) are taken care of.

We never seem to hear about this. This is where the real battle should lie!

CT04

 

[jmj603]

THEY WILL BURY YOU

Um, your rhetoric just gave the WASP’s the moral right to defend themselves by force of arms. And Catholics have no right to choose the unjust side in war, just because they happen to be Catholic.

 

[CLearthinking04]

Why doesn’t the Catholic League and the Church it self approach this whole problem with common sense and see the bigger picture?

The minutemen are frightened individuals. They are frightened by unrestricted and unlawful immigration, which the Church supports. They are turning on the Church because the Church placed itself behind the wrong cause and now this attack on Catholics, while morally wrong is to be expected.

Instead of supporting the over-running of the US health care system by undocumented immigration and the potential for terrorist entry into the US, not to mention tax base erosion and the issue of jobs, why not fight for legal entry for immigrants. Why not get behind the idea of getting the proper resources allocated to promote legal entry with all the protections to the US to prevent criminals and terrorists from entry and adding to the tax base. This way existing US citizens and immigrants (new citizens) are taken care of.

We never seem to hear about this. This is where the real battle should lie!

CT04

 

[sprout]

**Your “neighbor” is first and foremost the people closest to you. ** Yes, it includes the illegal living in a shack down the street, but also all the citizens and legals in the houses in between, and most especially the ones you think are intolerable rednecks and racists, because God has also told you to love your enemies. Many miles away from you is the Mexican who hasn’t yet crossed the Rio Grande.

LOL. This reminds me of yesterdays gospel reading “Who is my neighbor?”. Note that Our Lord did not say “first and formost the people closest to you” which even then was the common assumption, to answer the lawyer’s question. Our Good Lord told the famous parable of the good Samaritan. Here’s a refresher of the gospel story:

LUKE 10
25 And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life?

26 But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he willing to justify himself, said to Jesus: And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering, said: A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, who also stripped him, and having wounded him went away, leaving him half dead.

31 And it chanced, that a certain priest went down the same way: and seeing him, passed by. 32 In like manner also a Levite, when he was near the place and saw him, passed by. 33 But a certain Samaritan being on his journey, came near him; and seeing him, was moved with compassion. 34 And going up to him, bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine: and setting him upon his own beast, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two pence, and gave to the host, and said: Take care of him; and whatsoever thou shalt spend over and above, I, at my return, will repay thee.

36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? 37 But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner. drbo.org/chapter/49010.htm

Notice that Our Lord changes the orientation of the question, from who is MY neighbor a.k.a. how can I limit those to whom I am to love as God commands? to “who was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers” He changed it to BEING a neighbor, and that’s what Christians who seek the Kingdom of God are to BE.

Really good commentary on this gospel as it relates to immigration: op.org/international/english/Documents/masters_order/Radcliffe/samaritan.htm

I think the gospel you’re referring to about praying for our enemies says even the pagans are a “neighbor” to someone in THEIR family, THEIR community, THEIR country, but again Our Lord challenges us to be more. He challenges us to love even our enemies and return even hatred with kindness. I, personally, don’t think anyone here on CA a “redneck and racist” (although possibly xenophobic and ethnocentric) and definately don’t consider ANY an enemy. In fact, I consider you all brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

[KofC660]

Um, your rhetoric just gave the WASP’s the moral right to defend themselves by force of arms. And Catholics have no right to choose the unjust side in war, just because they happen to be Catholic.

That’s just a demographic fact; the only way to prevent it is to start a program of genocide in countries to the south of the United States. The sooner people accept it, the better off everyone will be.

 

[jmj603]

That’s just a demographic fact; the only way to prevent it is to start a program of genocide in countries to the south of the United States. The sooner people accept it, the better off everyone will be.

The sooner people accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, the better off they will be.

 

[jmj603]

LOL. This reminds me of yesterdays gospel reading “Who is my neighbor?”. Note that Our Lord did not say “first and formost the people closest to you” which even then was the common assumption, to answer the lawyer’s question. Our Good Lord told the famous parable of the good Samaritan. Here’s a refresher of the gospel story:

Thank you for making my point perfectly. The Samaritan was on the same street as the injured man. He was not worried about the plight of the slaves in Rome.

Really good commentary on this gospel as it relates to immigration:

You have to be pretty sick or desperate to quote Fr. Radcliffe.

I, personally, don’t think anyone here on CA a “redneck and racist” (although possibly xenophobic and ethnocentric)

Whatever you call it, the anti-American hate speech (i.e., we can’t call our nationality “American”) isn’t endearing, and it doesn’t come from the Church.

 

[jmj603]

You have to be pretty sick or desperate

BTW, I didn’t mean to suggest that you were sick or desperate, especially in the morally culpable sense, although I do think you may have fallen under some dangerous influences.

 

[Moneo]

re: the Church & Theocracy

I put Church teaching above nationalism. The Church is “Catholic” which means universal and has no borders.

I agree. Nationalism has been responsible for the worst evils and horrors of the past 500 years. One of the biggest disasters in the history of Christianity was the loss of our sense of commmunion and our unity with one another and the formation of the modern nation-state, which almost always ends up demanding complete submission and blind loyalty on the part of its citizens. It is, in my opinion, incompatible with what we are called to be and the unity to which we are called as Christ’s followers.

It is so ethnocentric to refer to the US as America, especially when you are discussing immigration which involves other “Americans”, our neighbors to the south. FYI: America is the name of a region considered a single continent composed of South America, North America, the land bridge of Central America, and the islands of the Antillas.

Thank you very much! It is nice to see someone aknowledge this fact once in a while. U.S. citizens are Americans, but so are Canadians, Mexicans, Chileans, Argentinians, Colombians, Brazilians etc.

Watching the videos on that Minuteman Unvarnished site that someone posted further up was enlightening … and revolting. I don’t much care whether the Minutemen protrayed there are the “authentic” Gilchrist group or a splinter group or a parallel group or whatever. There was nothing appealing about about what I saw there or their bigoted rhetoric, and if that is anyone’s example of what “patriotism” is all about, well then I’m glad I’m not very patriotic.

On the other hand, I am concerned about illegal immigration. It cannot be permitted. Nations do have a right to control their borders. Not every illegal immigrant is simply a poor, innocent victim of injustice seeking a better life, nor are all illegal immigrants illiterate, violent criminals with “seditious intent” (a term used on the Campo site that another poster linked to).

I guess that on the basis of this (very heated and passionate) thread I will just have to continue to research and read about the Minutemen issue before coming to any definitive conclusions.

The whole point would be moot if the U.S. government could more effectively manage their response to the situation. But there is a lot of political red tape and maneuvering and a lot of PC baggage that prevents it I suppose. It is also true that a more effective response would require a lot more manpower and resources, and that would mean more taxes, something which I suspect many people here aren’t interested in having either.

 

[Moneo]

BTW, I didn’t mean to suggest that you were sick or desperate, especially in the morally culpable sense, although I do think you may have fallen under some dangerous influences.

These sorts of potential misunderstandings could be more easily avoided if we were all to return to the use of the impersonal, third-person pronoun “one”, as in "one has to be … ".

Signed,

Your Friendly Neighborhood Grammar Cop

 

[aspawloski4th]

And the Mexicans took the Southwest from the Apaches and the Apaches took it from the Anastazi and they took it it, IIRC , from the lost tribe of Israel…

And Mexico was teaken from the Spanish who took it from the Aztecs who took it fraom the mayans… How far back do you want to go?..

when jj2011 supports the governent of whole isle of britain going back to the britons and booting out the saxons and normans will I support him! better yet give eastern italy back to the etruscans, and jordan back to israel. the fact is its what the minute men arre trying to stop is illegal undocuments immegration, something all americans should be on the minutemen’s side for. instead of fixing problems in thier own country, they are bringing down ours. flooding hospitals,bringing down wages,filling jails(lots of them commit violent crimes),bringing in diseases the USA hasnt seen in many years, islamic terrorists sneaking in with them. for those of you out there who have something against the rich, think of this. this happens to be going on in my state of michigan. employers like contracters are now hiring illegals in mass because their status makes it easy t pay a subminimum wage and not deal with a union. the hired illegal has to take the less wage because complainingblows his cover. this fill the pockets of some of the rich, this brings down the quality and safety of some of the work. get rid of the illegals and the legitimate citezen will once again have employers competing to hire him. which will bring wages and quality of life up again.

 

[aspawloski4th]

People have to make up their minds whether they want to follow church teaching or the Minutemen arguments.

In the category of church teaching, for those who care to study it, is the following document from Pius XII, where he affirms a right to migrate based on conditions of unemployment and hunger.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/p12exsul.htm

you forget something very big. nowhere does this document say one has the right to break civil law in doing it.

 

[sprout]

BTW, I didn’t mean to suggest that you were sick or desperate, especially in the morally culpable sense, although I do think you may have fallen under some dangerous influences.

likewise

 

[Ender]

People have to make up their minds whether they want to follow church teaching or the Minutemen arguments.

There is no need to choose; the Church does not teach that a country has no right to defend its borders and control who enters.

In the category of church teaching, for those who care to study it, is the following document from Pius XII, where he affirms a right to migrate based on conditions of unemployment and hunger.

The right of an individual to emigrate does not exist in a vacuum, it coexists with the rights of states to control immigration. This may be the key phrase from the encyclical you cited: “*Since land everywhere offers the possibility of supporting a large number of people, the sovereignty of the State, although it must be respected, cannot be exaggerated to the point that access to this land is, for inadequate or unjustified reasons, denied to needy and decent people from other nations, provided of course, that the public wealth, considered very carefully, does not forbid this.”

*- First, this comment was made in 1948 and the pope was referring to the tens of thousands of refugees created by the war and to conditions of poverty and want that do not now exist.

• Second, the land he was referring to was the arable but unused land of under-populated countries. His point was: “You’re not using the land, let others work it.” This is not the issue today.
• Third, the basis for his plea was this: *"**allow those in need, whose own lands lack the necessities of life, to emigrate to other countries." *We are not talking about immigration from countries that lack the necessities of life. This encyclical does not support your claim that the Church endorses your position.

Ender

 

[yannick]

You are mistaken. We have the right to defend our nation against invaders seeking to take the jobs of countless Americans. The Church says we need to rid the world of poverty. The Minutemen are doing nothing but trying to secure our border so poor Americans have a shot at making a living.

My dear friend. I praise God for your possible vocation, the simple fact that you think of it is the blessing for the church. As your position on the immigration discussion, it clearly needs to be reviewed. The position of the Church in getting rid of the poverty is a position that must be taken just as the church is UNIVERSALLY. Get rid of poverty here will not do the trick (though we have to start somewhere).
In addition the Church’s soul is impragnated with compassion and charity for the least of us, poorest of the poorest. Yes we should try to find a long lasting solution to the problem of immigration for our Country (from a patriotic standpoint). But as CATHOLICS (mot mere Christians) we should try and milit for the solving of this problem on a larger scale (South America, Africa and all of the 3rd world, it’s a lot I know but nobody said being catholic was going to be easy).
Third point, Let’s leave the garbage of our politics out of the Church. I congratulate you in thinking American, You love our country (great I do too, I have served it in the military) but if you considering a vocation in the Church you have to think further you have to think universally (again). They pain whether here or elsewhere must be yours…That is the challenge of Charity.
Fourth and final point, I understand (probably from you) that the man in charge at minutemen is a “devout catholic”. Being a devout catholic is a bit more than devotion and daily mass (and these a more than essentiel, especially the mass) it is prayer of charity in action. (If you enter the carmel where I now pratically live you will certainly learn it quickly). And nothing show me charity for human kind (again as a whole) in what he is doing, nothing. Yes you would say he is charitable toward american that he is protecting from the evil immigrants (booo). Well it written if you do good to those who do you good where is your merit, the hypocrits do the same. So my good friend…I suggest this devout catholic and you pick up and read the magisterial document by pope John XXIII “pace in Terris” (that metions among other thing immigration) and start putting your devotion in action the catholic way. Or maybe are you one of them people who do not consider the good pope John a real pope?
Oops did I say last thing…Last point. This whole thing started because of the terrorist attack. Protected than we should be indeed from terrorists. If we are than trying to protect ourselves from these peeps why not do the same at our northern border?after all the real close calls that we had since were all from over there, (ie. Washington State some years ago) could it be that they happen to be a bit more (How should I say…) properly colored? Than I join the good friend who mention that this is just another case of ‘Irish need not apply’
Let try and be catholic in word, devotion and action for a change.

Yannick T.O Carm
or Thank God for Benedict the XVI and the tridentine mass, the world is indeed a better place to live in since july the 7th

 

[sprout]

This encyclical does not support your claim that the Church endorses your position.Ender

actuall this encyclical along with a plethora of others are historically consistent in teaching the faithful how to apply our faith in modern situations, for a partial list of these documents:

In his landmark encyclical Pacem in Terris, Blessed Pope John XXIII *expands the right to migrate *as well as the right to not have to migrate: “Every human being has the right to freedom of movement and of residence within the confines of his own country; and, when there are just reasons for it, the right to emigrate to other countries and take up residence there.”…

31…In his 1990 Lenten message, Pope John Paul II lists the rights of refugees, including the right to be reunited with their families and the right to a dignified occupation and just wage…
32. Pope John Paul II also addresses the more controversial topic of undocumented migration and the undocumented migrant. In his 1995 message for World Migration Day, he notes that such migrants are used by developed nations as a source of labor. Ultimately, the pope says, elimination of global underdevelopment is the antidote to illegal immigration.12 Ecclesia in America, which focuses on the Church in North and South America, reiterates the rights of migrants and their families and the respect for human dignity *“even in cases of non-legal immigration.”*13
33…episcopal conferences have echoed the rich tradition of church teachings with regard to migration.14 Five principles emerge from such teachings, which guide the Church’s view on migration issues.

I. Persons have the right to find opportunities in their homeland.
34. All persons have the right to find in their own countries the economic, political, and social opportunities to live in dignity and achieve a full life through the use of their God-given gifts. In this context, work that provides a just, living wage is a basic human need.

II. Persons have the right to migrate to support themselves and their families.
35. The Church recognizes that all the goods of the earth belong to all people.15 When persons cannot find employment in their country of origin to support themselves and their families, they have a right to find work elsewhere in order to survive. Sovereign nations should provide ways to accommodate this right.

III. Sovereign nations have the right to control their borders.
36. The Church recognizes the right of sovereign nations to control their territories but rejects such control when it is exerted merely for the purpose of acquiring additional wealth. More powerful economic nations, which have the ability to protect and feed their residents, have a stronger obligation to accommodate migration flows.

IV. Refugees and asylum seekers should be afforded protection.
37. Those who flee wars and persecution should be protected by the global community. This requires, at a minimum, that migrants have a right to claim refugee status without incarceration and to have their claims fully considered by a competent authority.

**V. The human dignity and human rights of undocumented migrants should be respected. **
38. Regardless of their legal status, migrants, like all persons, possess inherent human dignity that should be respected. Often they are subject to punitive laws and harsh treatment from enforcement officers from both receiving and transit countries. Government policies that respect the basic human rights of the undocumented are necessary.

1. The Church recognizes the right of a sovereign state to control its borders in furtherance of the common good. It also recognizes the right of human persons to migrate so that they can realize their God-given rights. These teachings complement each other. While the sovereign state may impose reasonable limits on immigration, the common good is not served when the basic human rights of the individual are violated. In the current condition of the world, in which global poverty and persecution are rampant, the presumption is that persons must migrate in order to support and protect themselves and that nations who are able to receive them should do so whenever possible. It is through this lens that we assess the current migration reality between the United States and Mexico. usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml