Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[Hesychios]

Many of the Orthodox, however, seem to want us to abandon the things that make us Western Christians, and they forget that we are just as ancient as they are. They want us to abandon the Pauline Mass and the Tridentine Mass. They want us to abandon statues and the rosary. They want us to change many nit-picky liturgical things.

Where do you get this?

I would like you to provide a backup to these allegations, not that I think you are absolutely wrong (maybe someone somewhere thinks like that ) but because I for one do not remember any Orthodox around here saying this.

We don’t normally put statues in our temple, of course, but who is it among the Orthodox that want you to remove yours? Certainly not me.

Orthodox only know what you can tell us about the Pauline Mass, since it is not our Mass and we don’t attend. If it is abused we could only know that if you tell us, and the Traditionalist section of CAF is full of that: Catholics berating their own Mass.

As for your allegation that we want you to abandon your Mass? Codswallop.

And the complaints about Latinization are an Eastern Catholic concern. They are the ones who have been dumped on, and they are the ones (after the encouragement of Rome) who are working to remove them.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by WetCatechumen
Many of the Orthodox, however, seem to want us to abandon the things that make us Western Christians, and they forget that we are just as ancient as they are. They want us to abandon the Pauline Mass and the Tridentine Mass. They want us to abandon statues and the rosary. They want us to change many nit-picky liturgical things.

Dear Friends,
Here we have a perfect example of why we should leave these types of discussions to those charged with working out the differences.
Apparently, Wetcatachuman heard some things that he attributes to “Many Orthodox”. Hesychios rightly takes issue with this as it sound to him (and to me) like this is just “people talking” and not “official beliefs”
How many times do we run into this with our protestant brothers as well. They think the Church teaches this or that because some, “catholic” told them so. Let us please recognize that neither the Church in the East or in the West is going to make any decision that is not in accord with Truth. Rather let us pray that these men move forward in Love and that we be humble enough to accept whatever changes God wills in order to make reunification possible.

Peace
James

 

[Disciple4Christ]

My vote was based on the best possible choice not always my true choice. This unfortunately is how a democracy works.
Thank God the Church is not a democracy!
The Holy Spirit will guide her not the unholy vote.
As for unity who can call themselves Christian and not want unity?
John 17 Jesus prayer is for unity.

Peace all.
jim

 

[aspirant]

Many of the Orthodox, however, seem to want us to abandon the things that make us Western Christians

I have a friend who belongs to ROCOR who says this kind of thing, but I’ve never heard anyone here say it. As far as I know, it’s a private opinion of his.

 

[trophybearer]

I have a friend who belongs to ROCOR who says this kind of thing, but I’ve never heard anyone here say it. As far as I know, it’s a private opinion of his.

Considering that ROCOR has Western Rite parishes…

 

[aspirant]

Considering that ROCOR has Western Rite parishes…

And my friend is opposed to that. Like I said, I think it’s just a private opinion of his.

 

[brigantine]

And my friend is opposed to that. Like I said, I think it’s just a private opinion of his.

It is just his opinion. Most Orthodox, including Saint Tikhon, favored having a Western Rite.

 

[aspirant]

Yup. I would never ascribe his views to other Orthodox folk.

 

[jlhargus]

Dear Friends,
Here we have a perfect example of why we should leave these types of discussions to those charged with working out the differences.
Apparently, Wetcatachuman heard some things that he attributes to “Many Orthodox”. Hesychios rightly takes issue with this as it sound to him (and to me) like this is just “people talking” and not “official beliefs”
How many times do we run into this with our protestant brothers as well. They think the Church teaches this or that because some, “catholic” told them so. Let us please recognize that neither the Church in the East or in the West is going to make any decision that is not in accord with Truth. Rather let us pray that these men move forward in Love and that we be humble enough to accept whatever changes God wills in order to make reunification possible.

Peace
James

JL: Amen I’ll vote for that.

 

[Triciacat]

Scripture tells us what makes us Christian, so we are, indeed, unified. There’s this vehement insistence that it really matters whether we are sprinkled, poured or dunked, married, unmarried, etc. but whether God really minds is the question.

 

[WetCatechumen]

Where do you get this?

I would like you to provide a backup to these allegations, not that I think you are absolutely wrong (maybe someone somewhere thinks like that ) but because I for one do not remember any Orthodox around here saying this.

We don’t normally put statues in our temple, of course, but who is it among the Orthodox that want you to remove yours? Certainly not me.

Orthodox only know what you can tell us about the Pauline Mass, since it is not our Mass and we don’t attend. If it is abused we could only know that if you tell us, and the Traditionalist section of CAF is full of that: Catholics berating their own Mass.

As for your allegation that we want you to abandon your Mass? Codswallop.

And the complaints about Latinization are an Eastern Catholic concern. They are the ones who have been dumped on, and they are the ones (after the encouragement of Rome) who are working to remove them.

First, let me say that I do not know much about the ecumenical dialogue at the church level. I failed to specify in my original post that I am not talking about the grander scheme of things. These particular issues that I have recognized tend to be more grassroots. I read at least one article on unity written by an Orthodox priest (not a bishop) and I have read the writings of Orthodox laity that express opinions such as these, and I have spoken to Orthodox in real life who raise objections like these. Sadly, I do not have direct citations readily available, nor can I remember the priest who wrote the article. I apologize. My post was not meant to be scholarly, and you are free to dismiss it out of hand if you wish.

I am not saying that Byzantinization is a real concern for the Western church - we are firm in our traditions, and the real danger is the Eastern traditions being squashed out by overwhelming numbers on our side, and a history of forced Latinization on our part. I was merely positing that some on the Orthodox side seem to want this.

A few here, as I recall, but mostly it has been talk elsewhere. I did not mean to give this impression.

Also, I would link to this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Rite_Orthodoxy#Byzantine_Rite_only

Yes, I know that this article makes few citations on the criticism. However, someone bothered to write that there are criticisms concerning Western Rite Orthodoxy - and that they are essentially saying that only the Byzantine Rite should be allowed.

Clearly, there are people who think along these lines. How can unity be achieved? Those who favor “Byzantine Rite only” seem to want mass conversion to Eastern Christianity, not unity of the East and West.

 

[karoleck]

Quote from Breathing Deeply,with One Lung by ANDREW T. kANIA

"For many Latin Catholics the mention of Eastern or Oriental Churches is understood as a reference to “the Orthodox Churches”, to those Churches of the East which are not in full communion with the Catholic Church governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.

This misconception is explored through the work of the Ukrainian Catholic scholar and Basilian monk, Anthony Holowaychuk. According to Holowaychuk not only is there a need to make the Latin Church aware of her Eastern Catholic Church brethren, but on a similar plane there is a critical need to make the Latin Church aware of her own sister Churches of the West. The process of making the Church more Catholic is one which has a number of focuses: First, that both East and West understand re-discover and come to understand the other; Second, that on the level of both Eastern and Western that they come to a level of self-discovery – coming to know exactly who they are as a particular lung within the Corpus Christi. It is on this latter point where the Latin Church, so long thought of as the monolithic rite of the West, must break open this false perception within Her, and discover Her role in the sisterhood of Western Churches. Perhaps in the future “there will be from the Latin Church the development of many particular Churches”(Holowaychuk, 1988, p.217).

I post this because it might throw some light on this topic—There are wonderful articles in The Ukraniane Orthodox sights—I recomend everyone to read the full article of what Andrew T. Kania wrote,very informative indeed.He belongs to the Ukranian Orthodox Church.

 

[karoleck]

catholicukes.org.au/tiki-index.php?page=Dr+Andrew+Kania%27s+Articles

The above is the link to Dr.Andrew T Kania ,he is studying in Oxford University–I searched the Web and found that he comes from Australia,a very impressive person indeed.!

 

[Diak]

I would be interested in a counter-poll asking how many of the responders are Latin Catholics who want nothing other than complete submission to the Latin Church.

Thanks very much to the previous poster for referring to Dr. Kania’s well reasoned and informed article. He is a blessing to our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. I especially like his “Breathing Deeply with One Lung”.

 

[JRKH]

I would be interested in a counter-poll asking how many of the responders are Latin Catholics who want nothing other than complete submission to the Latin Church.

It might be interesting but counterproductive.
It really does not matter what individual “Latin Catholics” want, but rather what the Holy Spirit wants.
It is He who will guide those responsible for investigating closer ties and possible reunification.
It is He who will help those responsible to a better understanding of His Truth, and to a better means of expressing and communicating that Truth.

May the efforts of those responsible bear fruit sooner rather than later.

Peace
James

 

[Diak]

It might be interesting but counterproductive.
It really does not matter what individual “Latin Catholics” want, but rather what the Holy Spirit wants.
It is He who will guide those responsible for investigating closer ties and possible reunification.
It is He who will help those responsible to a better understanding of His Truth, and to a better means of expressing and communicating that Truth.

May the efforts of those responsible bear fruit sooner rather than later.

Peace
James

Perhaps it would be illustrative and not counterproductive.

In any case, thankfully the Holy Spirit also does not seem to rely on polls, which are also often counterproductive. My mistake (freely admitted) was even reading this thread. I also pray daily to the Holy Spirit to fully unite all Churches of Apostolic Succession in a communion of love and mutual respect for venerable and ancient traditions.

 

[Triciacat]

It is He who will help those responsible to a better understanding of His Truth, and to a better means of expressing and communicating that Truth.

Peace
James

The Holy Spirit won’t enter into a situation when everyone’s hardhats are firmly in place, as evidenced by the poll results showing that 47% of Catholics expect Orthodox Christians to submit to their doctrine.

 

[mark_a]

Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

Are Orthodox Churches in union with each other? If not, which would be more likely to consider some type of union?

 

[Triciacat]

Interestingly, I noted recently that the Orthodox Church of Canada (Eastern Rite) has taken the lead toward the unification of Christians by proclaiming communion with the Archdiocese of the Delaware & North American Missions (Western Rite.)

 

[Filioque]

The Holy Spirit won’t enter into a situation when everyone’s hardhats are firmly in place, as evidenced by the poll results showing that 47% of Catholics expect Orthodox Christians to submit to their doctrine.

Those Orthodox Churches that have Western Rite parishes insist on the adding of an epiklesis and the deleting of the Filioque, as well as the acceptance of all Orthodox doctines and the Rudder.

What this points out is that Eastern or Western Liturgics and other practices should not stop us from union.

I would not expect an Orthodox Church to simply abandon their position for the sake of unity either. However engaging in honest talks and invoking the assistance of the Holy Ghost in all of this will hopefully accomplish the prayer of Christ that we would all be one.