Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I see that slightly over 48 % voted that the Orthodox Church must accept all essential Catholic dogmas before reunification will occur. If that is the case, then there will not be a reunification of the Eastern and Western Churches. The Orthodox Church will never accept “transubstantiation” or the filioque clause in the Nicene Creed. That is why I voted to keep them seperate.

Are either of those, transubstantiation or the filioque, actual dogmas?

Transubstantiation describes the way the Eucharist comes to be when one is of the Aquinas/Aristotlean philosophical school. The Orthodox do not deny that the Eucharist is fully the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ while retaining the appearance of bread and wine.

The filioque, I believe has been dealt with and is not as big an issue as some wish it to appear. After all, have you read this? The Filioque: A Church-Dividing Issue?

 

[sidbrown]

Are either of those, transubstantiation or the filioque, actual dogmas?

Transubstantiation describes the way the Eucharist comes to be when one is of the Aquinas/Aristotlean philosophical school. The Orthodox do not deny that the Eucharist is fully the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ while retaining the appearance of bread and wine.

The filioque, I believe has been dealt with and is not as big an issue as some wish it to appear. After all, have you read this? The Filioque: A Church-Dividing Issue?

What is the status of this document on the filioque. I see that there are Catholics on CAF who deny that it is official teaching of the Church and say that it is purely speculative and non-binding. They are going by the older RC teaching of preVatican II on the filioque.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What is the status of this document on the filioque. I see that there are Catholics on CAF who deny that it is official teaching of the Church and say that it is purely speculative and non-binding. They are going by the older RC teaching of preVatican II on the filioque.

I am not sure, but I know the biggest issues in the argument is language, Latin and Greek do not play well together, what is said in Latin can have multiple meanings as the word has.

 

[Nine_Two]

Personally, I recall reading at orthodoxinfo.org the sophistic means by which many EO continue to reject unity with the OOC. The EO are nitpicking at certain statements trying to get the OO to admit to a specifically Eastern Byzantine understanding of certain terminologies in the Christological forum. Agreement in Christological Faith is not enough, it seems, to certain EO, and everything down to the smallest detail must align with the Byzantine understanding.

Blessings,
Marduk

The problem with orthoxinfo.org is that it has a huge chip on its shoulder and anything where opinion can be put into, it will be put into. It’s much like newadvent in that way. A good site for information, if you can read past the polemics.

 

[aspirant]

I see that slightly over 48 % voted that the Orthodox Church must accept all essential Catholic dogmas before reunification will occur.

I suspect people choosing that option don’t necessarily mean the same thing(s) by it. Same with the other poll options, for that matter.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother sidbrown,

What is the status of this document on the filioque. I see that there are Catholics on CAF who deny that it is official teaching of the Church and say that it is purely speculative and non-binding. They are going by the older RC teaching of preVatican II on the filioque.

The document from the USCCB-Orthodox consultation is not authoritative. The USCCB itself is not an authoritative body.

However, the document reflects much of the same contents as the OFFICIAL (and therefore authoritative) Clarification on Filioque that was put forth by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity under the aegis of HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[sidbrown]

Dear brother sidbrown,

The document from the USCCB-Orthodox consultation is not authoritative. The USCCB itself is not an authoritative body.

However, the document reflects much of the same contents as the OFFICIAL (and therefore authoritative) Clarification on Filioque that was put forth by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity under the aegis of HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM

Blessings,
Marduk

Although it is an official document, it appears that there are Catholics on CAF who do not accept it as binding or infallible.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear brother sidbrown,

The document from the USCCB-Orthodox consultation is not authoritative. The USCCB itself is not an authoritative body.

However, the document reflects much of the same contents as the OFFICIAL (and therefore authoritative) Clarification on Filioque that was put forth by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity under the aegis of HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM

Blessings,
Marduk

Marduk,
Thank you, that is the one I was looking for but could not find quickly.

 

[Triciacat]

I suspect people choosing that option don’t necessarily mean the same thing(s) by it. Same with the other poll options, for that matter.

Yes, “accept” doesn’t necessarily mean “adopt.”

 

[aspirant]

Yes, “accept” doesn’t necessarily mean “adopt.”

A very good example of different ways the poll response(s) might be interpreted! Another might be differing understandings of what doctrines/practices are “essential.”

Patrick Madrid, if I remember correctly, once gave the following example of how the same words can be read with very different meanings. Though he was speaking of the difficulties intrinsic to a particular sola scriptura praxis, I think it may also apply here.

The sentence “I did not say you stole the money” takes on different meanings depending on which word is emphasized:

“I did not say you stole the money.” (a simple contradiction)
“I did not say you stole the money.” (someone else may have done so)
“I did not say you stole the money.” (but perhaps I thought it)
“I did not say you stole the money.” (someone else may have done so)
“I did not say you stole the money.” (suggesting you had a right to it)
“I did not say you stole the money.” (but I may have thought or said you stole something else)

So I would caution folks not to assume too much about what the poll responses mean.

 

[Hesychios]

… “accept” doesn’t necessarily mean “adopt.”

On a practical level it means ‘endorse’.

What one generation ‘accepts’, the next generation may ‘adopt’, that is how error spreads. This is why the Orthodox discipline on communion is so strict. As much as we ourselves might very much wish it were different we simply cannot commune nor concelebrate with the heterodox, or we naturally risk excommunication ourselves! We cannot commune with others who willingly commune the heterodox, which is why the various EC (regardless of their own theological stance) were not able to effectively act as a ‘bridge’ between the Latin west and the Orthodox east and (sad to say) probably will never fulfill that role. As soon as the various proto-EC communed with Rome, even if mutually agreeing not to dispute various theological points of contention between the east and Rome, and even if they still accepted everything Holy Orthodoxy teaches as Truth they were necessarily excommunicated.

If there is anything squirrelly behind what one has been asked to ‘accept’, the only way for a conscientious Christian person to achieve that is through becoming indifferent to it. This is simply unacceptable.

For Orthodox Catholics, heterodoxy cannot be ‘accepted’, cannot be ‘adopted’ and cannot be ‘endorsed’.

 

[cmodrmac]

It just will never happen-the Orthodox Churches by and large are ethnic Churches consisting of various nationalities and have a very ancient liturgy and are used to being autonomous (like 2100 years of it)

Of what benefit would it be to either Church-the present Pope will never give in to anything that will decrease his authority nor would the ethnic Orthodox give in to anything that would disrupt their worship

It is all about Power and control

 

[CDNowak]

It just will never happen-the Orthodox Churches by and large are ethnic Churches consisting of various nationalities and have a very ancient liturgy and are used to being autonomous (like 2100 years of it)

Of what benefit would it be to either Church-the present Pope will never give in to anything that will decrease his authority nor would the ethnic Orthodox give in to anything that would disrupt their worship

It is all about Power and control

With all due respect, the Pope has stated that the form of the Papcy has changed over the last 1000 years or so, and could revert to what it was at that point. (The point of contention is what primacy meant before the schism).

The Churches would be pretty much autonomous and certainly their worship would be.

 

[JRKH]

It just will never happen-the Orthodox Churches by and large are ethnic Churches consisting of various nationalities and have a very ancient liturgy and are used to being autonomous (like 2100 years of it)

Of what benefit would it be to either Church-the present Pope will never give in to anything that will decrease his authority nor would the ethnic Orthodox give in to anything that would disrupt their worship

It is all about Power and control

The Orthodox Church has not been autonomous for 2100 years. did you mistype?

I’m sorry to see you so resolute about this. Your attitude seems to give little credit or faith to the power of the Holy Spirit.
Personally I will hope for eventual reunification and trust in both Th eHoly Spirit and in the Church leadership.

Peace
James

 

[Triciacat]

On a practical level it means ‘endorse’.

If there is anything squirrelly behind what one has been asked to ‘accept’, the only way for a conscientious Christian person to achieve that is through becoming indifferent to it. This is simply unacceptable.

For Orthodox Catholics, heterodoxy cannot be ‘accepted’, cannot be ‘adopted’ and cannot be ‘endorsed’.

Although we have many doctrinal similarities, we seem, unfortunately, to focus on what caused the schism in the first pIace. I’m not suggesting we necessarily need to fully endorse each others’ doctines nor should indifference ever become acceptable in order to acheive an early form of communion. We need to walk before we can run.

 

[Triciacat]

Personally I will hope for eventual reunification and trust in both The Holy Spirit and in the Church leadership.

In the Divine Litugy of St. John Chrysostom, Orthodox Christians pray “for the welfare of the holy churches of God and for the union of all,” and we ask the Lord to “fulfill the petitions of we Thy servants as may be expedient for us; granting us in this world the knowledge of Thy truth…” In The Lord’s Prayer, we all pray, “Thy will be done.” We must believe that God will acheive His will, in His time, and in His way, even if that is in eternity.

 

[spn82756]

I don’t think a union will be possible because the orthodox churches do not accept the doctrine of the catholic church like a priest not to marry and also honouring Mary as the Mother of God.

I believe that Orthodox do honor Mary as Mother of God. And there are many married Catholic priests.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Yes, the Eastern Orthodox Christians could become one or more Eastern Rite Churches in communion with Rome. That would be wonderful! I feel that as long as they acknowledge the Pope’s supremacy, they should be welcome. That is the ecumenism through we should focus(really, why should we try to make Protestants happy?).

 

[Mickey]

Yes, the Eastern Orthodox Christians could become one or more Eastern Rite Churches in communion with Rome. That would be wonderful! I feel that as long as they acknowledge the Pope’s supremacy, they should be welcome.

LOL! This is why there will not be union anytime soon.

 

[spn82756]

LOL! This is why there will not be union anytime soon.

Hey Mickey…

I took your advice. I’m going to a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy in Fall River on Sunday. I spoke to the priest. He requested that I not receive the Eucharist and I told him the only reason I would enquire was so as to not show disrespect. He asked me to see him before divine liturgy. He’s aware I intend to remain Catholic…but was interested in speaking to me.

See…I took your advice!