Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[Hesychios]

Exactly! I was Roman Catholic for over 38 years, and never one time was the existence of the Eastern Church mentioned by the clergy or people.

Me too! That’s the kind of thing you learn on your own, especially in the days before the internet. I learned what little I could know in the public library on Saturdays, reading the Catholic encyclopedia.

When I finally moved to the Ruthenian Catholics, the Latins could not understand what I had done. I even experienced some prejudice!

My mother (God rest her soul) was terrified for me, until a priest friend of the family told her it was OK.

It took a long time before I could convince her to attend “Mass” with me, still she was pretty uptight, but when she saw the ‘babushkas’ pull out their rosaries, she pulled out hers and was right at home!

I was a greeter at the parish, and sometimes that was like a docent. We had groups of visiting Latin Catholics come to the parish after the radio show took off and we could show them around, explain the icons, the architecture, the spirituality and answer questions.

Of course, the information would come out that I was a Latin Catholic before joining the EC parish. I have seen a few people actually come to tears upon learning ‘I had abandoned the Faith of my fathers’… ‘How could it come to this?’

My best friend at the time (also Polish like me, also Catholic) was told on several occasions that I had become a Byzantine Catholic (and joined the choirs, joined the evangelization committee, discerned a call to the diaconate, etc.) and I invited him many times to come visit the parish, at least if for no other reason then to hear me sing. I made it very clear more than once (or so I thought) that we were “under the Pope” and fully Catholic, with a big picture of Pope John Paul II in our vestibule. Puzzlingly, he never took me up on it.

Much later, when after great consternation and agonizing soul searching I had decided to become Orthodox, I felt that I should tell him. He said “but I thought you already were Orthodox”!

Some people just don’t get it.

 

[japscarousel]

I think this one does not need a new thread: I am becoming interested with Orthodox Church. I know one church here in the Philippines, that is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Is it OK to deal with them, say have a faith discussion with them or read their literature, or attend one of their liturgy?

How about the Antiochan Orthodox?

 

[Aramis]

I think this one does not need a new thread: I am becoming interested with Orthodox Church. I know one church here in the Philippines, that is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Is it OK to deal with them, say have a faith discussion with them or read their literature, or attend one of their liturgy?

How about the Antiochan Orthodox?

Bth of those should be canonical Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Hesychios]

I think this one does not need a new thread: I am becoming interested with Orthodox Church. I know one church here in the Philippines, that is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Is it OK to deal with them, say have a faith discussion with them or read their literature, or attend one of their liturgy?

I think that you will find that many Catholics here have read the literature and even visited.

As stated in other threads around the board, attending the Orthodox Divine Liturgy will not normally satisfy your Sunday Obligation as a Latin Catholic, if you already have a readily available Catholic Mass.

The theology and Spirituality is OK to study, if you can get the material. You will find a lot in English published by Byzantine Catholic authors, so you do not even have to go to Orthodox authors, if that is a concern of yours (or anyone else’s).

How about the Antiochan Orthodox?

You may visit either church under the same stipulation that it will not satisfy your Sunday Obligation as a Latin Catholic.

I think most Catholics here at CAF would advise you against converting, but it’s OK to learn about it. Pope John Paul II (of blessed memory) would approve, I think.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The faces of hope

 

[Formosus]

I don’t see how attending an Orthodox Church wouldn’t fulfill one’s Sunday obligation but I guess this is just my opinion

 

[PJM]

Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

Yes: It’s God’s Will.

The NT has in excess of 30 references for One Church. Who are we to God He’s wrong

Love and prayers,

Dear Lord MAKE IT HAPPEN!

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t see how attending an Orthodox Church wouldn’t fulfill one’s Sunday obligation but I guess this is just my opinion

It seems to be a matter of the canons.

As written for Latin Catholics requirements are a bit different than for Eastern Catholics.

 

[Diak]

I don’t see how attending an Orthodox Church wouldn’t fulfill one’s Sunday obligation but I guess this is just my opinion

Which is the opinion of every (without exception) Latin canon lawyer I have put this question to, as well as Cardinal Schoenborn.

 

[Seamus_L]

Canon 1248

1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.

PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM
115. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord’s Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year,120 Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law121—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept.122 It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

 

[ciero]

It just will never happen-the Orthodox Churches by and large are ethnic Churches consisting of various nationalities and have a very ancient liturgy and are used to being autonomous (like 2100 years of it)

Of what benefit would it be to either Church-the present Pope will never give in to anything that will decrease his authority nor would the ethnic Orthodox give in to anything that would disrupt their worship

It is all about Power and control

Pope Benedict XVI HAS opened the topic of decreasing the role of the papacy in Catholic Orthodox discussions, as did Pope JPII.

 

[Diak]

Canon 1248

1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.

PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM
115. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord’s Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year,120 Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law121—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept.122 It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

Neither of these general citations deal specifically with the Orthodox, which the Magisterium has declared must be considered differently (c.f. Unitatis Redintegratio, Ut Unum Sint, Orientale Lumen). By the clarifications of UR alone, this would present no problem. “Catholic Rite” is interpreted by canonists (and Cardinal Schoenborn) in the liturgical sense.

“What of a Catholic who, on a Sunday or holy day of obligation, may for a good reason - e.g. because of public office, of a family relationship, even of a wish to be better informed - attends an Orthodox Church on a Sunday or holy day of obligation ? Answer - It is certainly a tenable view that, in accordance with the Directory concerning Ecumenical Matters of 1967, such a catholic will thereby have satisfied the obligation of assisting at Mass as determined by this canon.” Cardinal Oddi

And if you are going to quote from the '93 Directory, at least quote those sections that deal with Sacramental worship (unless you believe the Orthodox do not confect a valid Eucharist):

a) Sharing in Sacramental Life with members of the various Eastern Churches

1. Between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches not in full communion with it, there is still a very close communion in matters of faith.125 Moreover, “through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature” and “although separated from us, these Churches still possess true sacraments, above all—by apostolic succession—the priesthood and the Eucharist…”.126 This offers ecclesiological and sacramental grounds, according to the understanding of the Catholic Church, for allowing and even encouraging some sharing in liturgical worship, even of the Eucharist, with these Churches, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authorities”.127 It is recognized, however, that Eastern Churches, on the basis of their own ecclesiological understanding, may have more restrictive disciplines in this matter, which others should respect. Pastors should carefully instruct the faithful so that they will be clearly aware of the proper reasons for this kind of sharing in liturgical worship and of the variety of discipline which may exist in this connection.

1. Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for any Catholic for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick from a minister of an Eastern Church.128

1. Since practice differs between Catholics and Eastern Christians in the matter of frequent communion, confession before communion and the Eucharistic fast, care must be taken to avoid scandal and suspicion among Eastern Christians through Catholics not following the Eastern usage. A Catholic who legitimately wishes to communicate with Eastern Christians must respect the Eastern discipline as much as possible and refrain from communicating if that Church restricts sacramental communion to its own members to the exclusion of others.

Nowhere in these sections, specifically dealing with Eastern Churches, is there a reiteration, clarification or declaration of “incomplete obligation” when attending an Eastern liturgy.

 

[Seamus_L]

Other than the Cardinal’s comments, none of this addresses the specific issue of whether or not attending an Orthodox liturgy fullfills one’s Sunday obligation. It indicates there are circumstances where one may attend an Orthodox Church, but the language of PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM 122 is quite clear on the subject and speaks of other Churches. How many Churches does the Catholic Church recognize as actual Churches and not ecclesial communities. No exception is made here for the various Orthodox Churches.
How one may fullfill there Sunday obligation in a Church where the priest will deny you Communion because in his opinion you believe false teachings is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Diak]

It indicates there are circumstances where one may attend an Orthodox Church, but the language of PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM 122 is quite clear on the subject and speaks of other Churches. How many Churches does the Catholic Church recognize as actual Churches and not ecclesial communities. No exception is made here for the various Orthodox Churches.

How one may fullfill there Sunday obligation in a Church where the priest will deny you Communion because in his opinion you believe false teachings is beyond my comprehension.

First of all what is clear is that there is a distinction between Sacramental and non-sacramental worship in common that, as I pointed out, you have ignored.

Secondly, it is clear from the Directory that a Catholic may receive the Sacraments from the Orthodox. So it therefore follows if one can receive Communion (“even of the Eucharist” from 126 of the cited document), why would he be bound to receive again unless there is no validity? That is beyond my comprehension. And there certainly is no provision like this for a similar reception from Lutherans, Episcopalians or any others as there specifically is for Eastern Churches.

Thirdly, according to Unitatis Redintegratio “separated Churches” is used outside of meaning only the Catholic and Orthodox churches (i.e. Section II is titled “Separated Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West”).

 

[MarcoPolo]

As a point of interest, I know of 2 Orthodox catechisms (Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church p.53-54 and A Catechetical Handbook of the Eastern Orthodox Church #372) that use the term “Transubstantiation” to describe the Eucharist. In talking to the average Orthodox on other forums (not this one), they tend to resist the term emphatically. I find these catechisms to be a comfort. Admittedly, many Orthodox clergy also resist the term. But I think once one fully understands what Transubstantiation is, one realizes that the mystery is still there. Transubstantiation isn’t an “explanation” as I’ve heard it described by some of the aforementioned Orthodox. The Eucharist remains a great mystery, yet we can all agree the bread and wine are no longer present.

 

[Diak]

Absolutely - the Cathechism you refer to is derived from that of St. Peter Mohyla, a wonderful work.

As I also understand, there are revisions to the '93 Directory already underway to specifically address the situation with the Orthodox and hopefully allay the misconceptions displayed on this thread. I’ve never heard of any Catholic bishop burdening anyone with a misguided sense of “obligation” to attend Mass again if they have attended an Orthodox Liturgy for purely spiritual benefit.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Absolutely - the Cathechism you refer to is derived from that of St. Peter Mohyla, a wonderful work.

Which one of the 2 Catechisms I mentioned?

 

[Diak]

The Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church. An English translation of Mohyla’s Catechism can be found here: esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/OCF.html

The response to Question 107:

…Transubstantiation occurs immediately with these words, and the bread is transubstantiated into the real body of Christ and the wine into the real blood of Christ, with the visible appearances alone remaining…

 

[stcalixtus]

door # 1 please

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church. An English translation of Mohyla’s Catechism can be found here: esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/OCF.html

The response to Question 107:

Very interesting. That text does not seem to appear in the link I provided to that Catechism. My link says it’s by Rev. Constas H. Demetry, D. D. Could this be a third Orthodox Catechism that uses the term Transubstantiation?

 

[Seamus_L]

I think the question of receiving twice in the same day is pretty much a moot point in light of the Orthodox Churches policy of denying Catholics communion, at least here in the US.