Do you think college should be free?

[casslean]

If you can’t afford college education, GO TO TRADE SCHOOL and be a millionaire, because that is very possible.

And let’s just hope that the person with the capacity to cure cancer doesn’t happen to have the misfortune to be born into a poor family. Because you shouldn’t have aspirations beyond the economic standing you happened to be born into.

 

[casslean]

That’s my concern: they are focused on themselves rather than the whole of society.

If you want to see what free education does for the “whole of society”, look up the Tangelo Park Project.

A millionaire funds daycare and post-secondary education for every family in a run-down, poverty-stricken, drug-infested part of Florida beginning in 1993. Today it has a 100% high school graduation rate and a 75% college graduation rate. The crime rate has been cut in half. Property values are higher, poverty rates are lower.

Education matters.

 

[Convert3]

And let’s just hope that the person with the capacity to cure cancer doesn’t happen to have the misfortune to be born into a poor family. Because you shouldn’t have aspirations beyond the economic standing you happened to be born into.

Wow! You actually think that a person that had the intelligence to cure cancer wouldn’t have the capacity to earn scholarships or even work their way through school because of the economic standing they were born into?

 

[vz71]

If you can’t afford college education, GO TO TRADE SCHOOL and be a millionaire, because that is very possible.

Indeed.
I know several people that are very successful small business owners that have no college education.

Too many people think the worth of an individual or their economic prospects are dictated by the education level.

 

[Anicette]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say me…

Why would i need an appointment with a priest?

 

[casslean]

I don’t think it. I know it. I was top of my class in high school, near the top in undergrad and law school - and I’m still mired in debt. There simply isn’t as much available in scholarships as people think there is and a part-time minimum wage job doesn’t stretch far in the current economic climate.

I have a small mortgage in student debt so I could get the career I wanted because working hard and being smart wasn’t enough.

Unless you have actually experienced what it means to be poor, you actually have no idea how hard it is to figure out a path out of being poor.

 

[graciew]

That way you will have the necessary time face to face with a priest you deserve to understand why both worldviews differ deeply.
And because it is off- topic to deal with it here. This is a thread about College and whether it should be free.

 

[Convert3]

Well, I put myself through undergrad, the Air Force paid for my MBA. I took out student loans and worked up to three jobs during my undergrad years.

My wife worked her way through school with no help from parents. She was also a widow with a child. Her parents did help watch her son. She worked for a company that helped pay for her Master’s degree where she graduated at the top of her class in a prestigious Catholic university. Of course, she worked full time, including on the transition team during a huge merger. I didn’t see her much those years.
How’s that saying go? Cry me a river…

 

[Anicette]

I don’t need to do that, I am well educated/can educated myself, but thanks you for the advise.

 

[graciew]

You are welcome.

 

[Usige]

I’m sure you did, as did I. But we have also seen the fallout of that system. We have seen how it disproportionately impacts minorities and the poor. We see how it perpetuates cycles of poverty by making it so difficult to escape.

So do you think if we have everyone go to college for free that suddenly we will have millions of previously unknown high salary jobs?

Once upon a time, a college education might have improved your financial situation, but ask the kid with a bachelor’s in Women’s Studies how well their degree has served them as they get you a tall cafe latte.

Way back in high school econ class we learned about the “money box”. Basically at any given time that box is a fixed size and if I want more of it then it comes from someone else. Free college might help some of those that can’t afford it, but it just means that there are more people trying to divy up the money box.

Long and short is that free college won’t miraculously eliminate poverty. It just means we will have the same number of people working in low paying jobs. The only difference will be that more of them will have a free piece of paper that is worthless because they are one of 10,000 people competing for 100 jobs. A degree is only useful if it serves to differentiate you, so the poor will have a free BA or BS, but the ones that get the good jobs will be able to afford a graduate degree. Higher costs and londer time to productivity all for the same results.

 

[casslean]

But why should those experiences be normalized? Why should we encourage people to choose between killing themselves with work or miring themselves in debt just to get an education?

Why are we, as a society, okay with that?

 

[Convert3]

Basically at any given time that box is a fixed size and if I want more of it then it comes from someone else

Well, that is a poor description of how money works. New money is actually created by debt. And that money is best used for creating a business to create wealth, allowing the debt to be repaid. Any money taxed by the government takes money out of the economy to pay for services the people need, but does not create more wealth efficiently. Some will make its way back into the economy, but with less velocity of money than if investing in a business. Of course, it’s far more complicated than this. My point is there is not a fixed box of money.

 

[Convert3]

If I were deciding between two prospects for a job, where one had worked their way through school and one got a free ride, I’d take the one who put themselves through. Not only because of the grit it took to get through school, but also because they did it wisely by not getting mired in debt.
Additionally, mountains of student loan debt for a degree that doesn’t pay much just shouldn’t be allowed. Very few degrees pay a great deal right out of school, including attorneys.

 

[jeannetherese]

Community college will shave costs considerably as will AP courses and Running Start programs.
However, even at a flagship school, working students can come out of a 4 year program debt free by living at home and commuting into campus.
Tuition at Washington State’s flagship campus is 3,735 per quarter, which includes a bus pass.
Students can still graduate debt free.
In terms of education, one can find courses online or through the library and self-educate for free. However, to get that piece of paper degree credibility, they will have to enroll, take tests, and prove they have mastered material.
We might want to consider differences between education and college degrees.
We also might wish to consider differing purposes in the pursuit of education: deepening learning, credibility with certain groups, labor market opportunities.
I love the idea of free education and of the life-long pursuit of learning. I am interested in seeing college course lectures provided, free of charge in public venues (such as libraries or through video lectures) But the laborer is worthy of his hire and I would anticipate that lecturers would be paid a just wage and students who wished to obtain a diploma would need to test in and pay up.
Also, in academic circles, the question of lectures as property and ownership of this property is a serious issue. If lectures are to be made publicly available, how do we properly compensate those whose intellectual property is being shared via social media?

 

[Reverent_Howler]

The world is already full of educated derelicts. So why add to the pile?

 

[Usige]

Usige:

Basically at any given time that box is a fixed size and if I want more of it then it comes from someone else

Well, that is a poor description of how money works.
…
My point is there is not a fixed box of money.

That is a valid critique… if I was trying to explain how economic growth works.

On the other hand I was using it as an example of how scarcity of resources impacts the value of a given resource at a given time and how redistribution of a resource can dilute it’s value to an individual. Yes, wealth can be created over time (i.e. making the “money box” bigger), but not by simply printing more money.

All printing more money and giving it to those that didn’t have any would do would be to cause inflation that would effectively decrease the monetary wealth of the person that had a larger proportion (leaving aside any other assets they acquired before hand). When the economy settled at the new price point those that did not take advantage of the window of opportunity would be right back where they started. Printing money does not create long term wealth.

The same thing would happen with providing free degrees; educational inflation. By increasing the number of degree holders it lowers the overall value of the degree in general. There is some inherent value in education (education not necessarily a college degree) but not everyone will be able to take advantage of it. For the one person it creates opportunity for it will lower the value of the education of several others.

 

[Usige]

The world is already full of educated derelicts. So why add to the pile?

Because in the modern era, the more formal education someone has, the more likely they are to vote for certain groups. I suspect for politicians the goal is less education and more about excellerating secular social transformation.

 

[Convert3]

All printing more money and giving it to those that didn’t have any would do would be to cause inflation that would effectively decrease the monetary wealth

Creating debt (money) for the purpose of investment does not cause inflation, but does bring economic growth. If “printing money” were the cause we would be in a high inflationary environment now.

 

[jvickers]

I wonder where your friend retrieved that data. I would like to see that study.