Do you think college should be free?

[jvickers]

This entire thread is a can of worms. As many have said, nothing is free. Someone is always paying for it be it the individual or taxpayers. There are plenty of lucrative occupations that do not require a college degree. Movements like “No Child Left Behind” have created the illusion that everyone needs a college degree to succeed and that everyone is capable of acquiring a college degree. Poppycock, I say. Perhaps a more salient question would be “Does everyone need to go to college?”

College costs a lot because there is a lot of overhead. You have housing, electricity, libraries full of books, buildings with classrooms to maintain, online resources to maintain, employee salaries to pay, etc. The list is almost endless. If you could somehow find a way to make that overhead go away while still paying employees fair wages (which don’t happen, by the way), then sure, make it free. But you cannot do that. So, college costs money. It costs someone money. It always will.

Again, as others have said, nothing is free. Someone always absorbs the cost.

Just random thoughts of a university professor…

 

[goout]

goout:

That’s my concern: they are focused on themselves rather than the whole of society.

If you want to see what free education does for the “whole of society”, look up the Tangelo Park Project.

A millionaire funds daycare and post-secondary education for every family in a run-down, poverty-stricken, drug-infested part of Florida beginning in 1993. Today it has a 100% high school graduation rate and a 75% college graduation rate. The crime rate has been cut in half. Property values are higher, poverty rates are lower.

Education matters.

Well that’s awesome.
Now can I ask you a question? Is that program that you just referenced an entitlement program, or a gratuitous initiative by a responsible citizen?

Which is it?
Have you heard of the Catholic principle of subsidiarity?

 

[Usige]

Creating debt (money) for the purpose of investment does not cause inflation, but does bring economic growth. If “printing money” were the cause we would be in a high inflationary environment now.

I said printing money just to give it to those that don’t have any money leads to inflation.

If you want to argue that “free college” is a debt funded investment we can have that discussion, but if you just want to show your vastly superior economic knowledge by reading what you want, then I’m out.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Talking in terms of the extreme positions is not helpful, as the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle ground. For example, the case can be made for free elementary school, middle school, and high school much more easily than making the case for free 4-year college. Most people are more willing to subsidize the former than the later. But that does not mean there must be a hard cutoff at high school.

A case can be made for partial subsidies of higher education without making it free. A case could even be made for subsidies of those that are exceptionally well-qualified for higher ed. I think a much more fruitful discussion could be had around what sort of subsidies are advisable and at what level for what kind of education. For example, people in general are probably more willing to subsidize trade schools than music education, but some people very invested in music may want to include them too.

 

[edwest211]

“The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

In the United States: Don’t vote for Bernie Sanders.

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

It’s not really free as someone has to pay for it. I think it should have tuition rates capped. Inflation is out of control.

 

[edwest211]

Inflation what? The Federal Reserve is practically giving away money. Across the United States, the price of gas goes up and down arbitrarily. Near the end of the month? Wall Street wants to see the money.

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

College tuition prices are grossly inflated now. Back when I got my undergrad degree at a public university (twenty two years ago), one could have a job and conceivably pay their tuition in full each semester. Undergrad tuition at that same university costs ten times that now. This is a problem everywhere. It is absolutely not possible for a college student to get a job and pay off their tuition in full. They accrue massive amounts of debt.

 

[Socrates92]

Likewise, let’s hope not too many with the capacity to become master carpenters are born into entitled wealthy families. It would be a shame to throw that away for a lame degree.

 

[Theo520]

It should never be free.
Any educated person should understand the basic psychology and economics that flow from giving things away for “free”.

If a degree doesn’t have an ROI, it shouldn’t be offered. That means expensive Ivy league schools etal should really restrict the number of gender studies graduates etc. Maybe just throw them all into pre-law This fact would focus colleges on the value they are delivering with their degrees, and lead to cost cutting where warranted.

State schools do deserve some level of subsidy, but in return their focus should be on value for money and on the degrees actually needed for their economies.

 

[po18guy]

Since bachelor’s degrees are essentially worthless, why not? Heck, just hand them out to those who actually show up for their high school graduation.

It’s a contemporary joke that the most common saying among those with liberal arts degrees is:

“Would you like fries with that?”

 

[jeannetherese]

If a degree doesn’t have an ROI, it shouldn’t be offered.

Hi Theo520,
Sometimes the ROI will have a value which is more difficult to define in economic terms.
At present, I’m hearing lots of calls for technical education (at all levels beginning in grade school) but this emphasis crowds out the liberal arts.
I’d hate to see history, philosophy and literature being pushed aside to make room for stem courses.
I think that music majors, writers, philosophers and artists can enrich our culture and encourage us to think beyond our jobs and our wallets.
I do acknowledge that those who wish to pursue such degrees might benefit from a double major as a means of entry into higher waged labor markets, but I’d hate to see the liberal arts shut down. I wonder if privileging stem mightn’t further encourage utilitarianism and technocracy.

 

[DarkLight]

Government makes or guarantees student loans, protecting the lenders from loss. That ensures a supply of students, and universities are glad to take the money. This artificially created demand drives up prices. Not everyone who starts college graduates, but they still end up with student loans. No one qualifies their creditworthiness, and not much thought is given to their academic preparedness for college. Student loans drive up tuition costs (and administrator salaries.) Making college tuition-free would just transfer the cost to the taxpayers.

It’s actually going to be more complicated than that. We’re entering an era where a significant portion of taxpayers have student loans. Much of those expenses are being deducted from their tax payments. Plus that’s still money that’s not going into the economy.

The same thing would happen with providing free degrees; educational inflation. By increasing the number of degree holders it lowers the overall value of the degree in general. There is some inherent value in education (education not necessarily a college degree) but not everyone will be able to take advantage of it. For the one person it creates opportunity for it will lower the value of the education of several others.

This is already happening. I think ultimately free college is a distraction from the fact that our modern economic structure isn’t actually set up to allow a living wage job for everyone who needs one. We’re seeing so many cases where we lose skilled jobs and have them replaced by minimum wage work. Or wages stay stagnant while the cost of living rises. Plus the college degree just gets replaced by a graduate degree or an unpaid internship as the credentials you need.

 

[Theo520]

Hi Theo520,
Sometimes the ROI will have a value which is more difficult to define in economic terms.
At present, I’m hearing lots of calls for technical education (at all levels beginning in grade school) but this emphasis crowds out the liberal arts.

We may be talking at cross purposes. I fully support a technical or business BS degree having a liberal arts component. People need a well rounded education. I just don’t support churning out a ton of expensive BA degrees that don’t provide the person with career prospects beyond going to law school. That is not a well rounded education.

Why should we fund tons of history and philosophy majors that don’t have prospects for a future career in academia.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

College tuition prices are grossly inflated now. Back when I got my undergrad degree at a public university (twenty two years ago), one could have a job and conceivably pay their tuition in full each semester. Undergrad tuition at that same university costs ten times that now.

That’s because government subsidies for higher education have been reduced.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

jeannetherese:

Hi Theo520,
Sometimes the ROI will have a value which is more difficult to define in economic terms.
At present, I’m hearing lots of calls for technical education (at all levels beginning in grade school) but this emphasis crowds out the liberal arts.

We may be talking at cross purposes. I fully support a technical or business BS degree having a liberal arts component. People need a well rounded education. I just don’t support churning out a ton of expensive BA degrees that don’t provide the person with career prospects beyond going to law school. That is not a well rounded education.

Why should we fund tons of history and philosophy majors that don’t have prospects for a future career in academia.

Well, we better have a few people who know history (not to repeat the mistakes of the past) and philosophy (among other things, a source of priests).

 

[whatistrue]

That’s because government subsidies for higher education have been reduced.

As I understand it, the timing of when national average tuition started increasing faster than overall inflation tracks very closely to the increase in Federal money being spent on post-secondary education, particularly in the form of student loan guarantees and direct student loans. State-funded schools are a different matter, and that can differ widely between states.

 

[Theo520]

Well, we better have a few people who know history (not to repeat the mistakes of the past) and philosophy (among other things, a source of priests).

YEA, it’s so critical that your barista can spout Hegel’s work on absolute idealism or recite the underlying causes of the African-diaspora.

I’ve studied some history in school and learned far more from reading history outside my degree program. Recall that above I already stated all degree paths need a well rounded education.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Well, we better have a few people who know history (not to repeat the mistakes of the past) and philosophy (among other things, a source of priests).

YEA, it’s so critical that your barista can spout Hegel’s work on absolute idealism or recite the underlying causes of the African-diaspora.

I’ve studied some history in school and learned far more from reading history outside my degree program. Recall that above I already stated all degree paths need a well rounded education.

And I stated that a few people need more than a “well rounded education” in these areas. We need some people with an in depth and knowledge of history and philosophy and language and culture. Not every barista, certainly. But some people. Without them a society becomes nothing more than an economic machine.

 

[Theo520]

And I stated that a few people need more than a “well rounded education” in these areas. We need some people with an in depth and knowledge of history and philosophy and language and culture. Not every barista, certainly. But some people. Without them a society becomes nothing more than an economic machine.

I never suggested we ‘do away’ with the majors, just that the number of degrees be restricted. By all means we should pick the best candidates who will then have a good shot at working in Academia.

I’ve also repeatedly said STEM degrees need to be rounded out with BA coursework, so they are whole people.

An over focus on History or perhaps Gender Studies equally does not make one a well rounded person that society needs.

Now let’s contrast this with an over supply of STEM degrees. We need some graduates with a degree in Nuclear physics but not tens of thousands. The key difference is a physics degree can likely still land you a living wage job to pay off your student loan.