Do you think college should be free?

[jesusmademe]

It is not exactly free anywhere in the world. I mean, if college (or whatever you call it) is free then you pay a lot of taxes and go to school without paying for it (books are obviously not free).
You could also ask:
Should we have lower taxes and let people pay for attending a certain school?

The stereotypes is:
Americans hate taxes and Swedes are ok with it.

 

[jesusmademe]

Education is a public good that should be made accessible at least at a reasonable price.

The price would be taxes.

In the Simpsons I hear a lot about what they call the college fund. Really interesting. Seems like the tv series is saying that it is easier for richer families to send their children to college.

 

[Theo520]

History and philosophy, taught well, might be the two subjects sorely needed to put the USA on a better course than what we see now.

Taught well in High School and as a requirement to get your degree.
Everyone needs some of it, but we don’t need tons of unemployable BA/MS/PHD grads in it.

 

[Diaconia]

Nope.

The value would be diminished.

What you work hard for, is what you respect more.

Deacon Christopher

 

[goout]

If you can’t afford college go to trade school.
Be a machinist, a welder, and electrician, a plumber, a millwright.
You can fill a huge need in our society, and make a ton of money with a lot less debt.

We need people who can fix things, make things, build buildings, keep production lines going. Our economy is screaming for people who can do these things.

 

[whatistrue]

A four year degree is needed to enter most medical and stem fields though.

As a general rule, yes, but not universally. I am in a very specialized field of IT and making a six figure salary with no post-secondary degrees. What I do have is umpty-mumble years of experience and an established track record. Of course it is much more difficult for someone just starting out today to do the same, but I think that is mostly because too many employers have bought into the BA/BS as a minimum credential nonsense, not because it is really necessary for an entry level position in the field.

 

[DarkLight]

As someone who took a degree in philosophy, I agree. Alas, both history and philosophy aren’t marketable, but, they are important bodies of knowledge. It’s usually the people who treat college as job training that think they’re useless.

Unfortunately, most folk tend to think that way. But at least a lot of the humanities degrees are more useful as preparatory for graduate studies. Law, education, even medicine. I’m to understand Cedar Sinai has been trying to attract more humanities majors to their medical program. They see value in bringing those points of view into medical practice. Oddly enough, at graduation with my philosophy degree I qualified for law school the easiest, medical school the second easiest (I lacked 1 prereq that I could’ve done easy if I wanted to in my undergrad work) and a teaching credential the hardest.

As another someone with a degree in philosophy - I’d like to see reduced rates for these programs in part to free them from the burden of having to “get a job.” Unfortunately many of those who control the funding also see these degrees as useless because they don’t lead straight to jobs. This is much to the detriment of those who would like to study for their own benefit.

As a general rule, yes, but not universally. I am in a very specialized field of IT and making a six figure salary with no post-secondary degrees. What I do have is umpty-mumble years of experience and an established track record. Of course it is much more difficult for someone just starting out today to do the same, but I think that is mostly because too many employers have bought into the BA/BS as a minimum credential nonsense, not because it is really necessary for an entry level position in the field.

Ironically I’ve been told IT is one of the few fields where self-study is at least a possible option.

Unfortunately, I think our real problem is that we need baristas and checkout clerks and shelf stockers too. And there’s no way these jobs can be filled by teenagers in any sort of reasonable way while they’re still going to school. But we have this model where we think if everyone just worked hard enough, they could get out of those jobs.

 

[ATraveller]

Since bachelor’s degrees are essentially worthless, why not? Heck, just hand them out to those who actually show up for their high school graduation.

That’s true. Now there’s an expectation people who have gone to university should have graduate degrees. A decade from now, PhDs. After that, then what? Create a new level and add another year or two?

 

[graciew]

In a different setting( not there in US and not saying it is what you have to do…) , much of this is solved quite naturally and with much effort through a year after which there are final entry exams. Subjects are common to all university careers( or about), so the filter isn t really money but knowledge, capacity, tenacity, attitude…and results.
Everyone is welcome with high school completed.
Where I live public University is free( ok, through our taxes…) but I really appreciate this approach .
It could be not totally free…but that is how it is and among all the flaws there are, really education and health have all my support .
I chime in because the standards aren t lowered really due to payment( or students’ non payment…) , results is what counts and it works.
Could be improved and also avoid overcrowding it with foreign students that come to study for free, but well, nowhere is perfect…
This contribution is meant to share, each society has its context and needs.
But money isn’t and doesn’ t always need to be the filter. I love that. That every kid has that chance to carry out their calling and vocation all alike with equal chance…And then it is up to all that personal effort to strain to get through and give the best to succeed. And it isn t easy…

 

[amazingcatholic]

It should not be free. It should cost much less.

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

Oh I agree that it’s unlikely. But I wouldn’t even stop there. I believe education should only be available through the Church.

 

[LisaB]

Why is high school available for free? Why did we as a society decide that the first 12 years of education are paid by taxpayers? Why not stop after 8th grade?

A couple thoughts: first we need to distinguish education from job training. Many view college as job training and are then understandably disappointed when a degree doesn’t lead to a job, and call that degree “useless.” Education is more than job training. And it has a value because it forms one into a thinking, analytical, logical, literate person, and is one of the ways that a person can become, to borrow Matthew Kelly’s phrase, a better version of himself. A philosophy degree has a value even if the person’s job has nothing to do with the discipline.

Second, it’s probably not news, but American education is terrible. An average high school graduate is at an academic level achieved much earlier in other developed countries. So really liberal arts bachelors degree is what would be called high school education in other places.

So I think before we talk about paying for even more than 12 years of school, we should reform K-12. Humans have a much higher academic capacity than what American curriculum gives them credit for. Truly, people are sold way short.

Then after that, I would be ok with paying for college out of my taxes. Every kid deserves an equal chance to pursue a higher education and any career they want. The saddest thing I read today was someone’s post saying that if you can’t afford college (like it’s their fault), go to trade school.

 

[Pattylt]

What do trade schools cost? I know that automotive school in Wyoming is top rated and graduates make very good money but it’s not cheap! Last I heard…several years ago…it was about $20,000 a year!

Does anyone know the costs of some others?

 

[PetraG]

…In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: for the ancient workingmen’s guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place. Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion. Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself…
…And further great advantage would result from the state of things We are describing; there would exist so much more ground for hope, and likelihood, even, of recalling to a sense of their duty those working men who have either given up their faith altogether, or whose lives are at variance with its precepts. Such men feel in most cases that they have been fooled by empty promises and deceived by false pretexts. They cannot but perceive that their grasping employers too often treat them with great inhumanity and hardly care for them outside the profit their labor brings…"

RERUM NOVARUM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII, ON CAPITAL AND LABOR
Given at St. Peter’s in Rome, the fifteenth day of May, 1891, the fourteenth year of Our pontificate.

Left-leaning? To stand up for oppressed labor against the greed of “their grasping employers” is NOT a matter of politics! It is a matter of morality, and it always has been.

 

[PetraG]

Why is high school available for free? Why did we as a society decide that the first 12 years of education are paid by taxpayers? Why not stop after 8th grade?

Because a great republic needs voters who can inform themselves at the level of an adult, not the level of an adolescent.

So I think before we talk about paying for even more than 12 years of school, we should reform K-12. Humans have a much higher academic capacity than what American curriculum gives them credit for. Truly, people are sold way short.

Very true.

Then after that, I would be ok with paying for college out of my taxes. Every kid deserves an equal chance to pursue a higher education and any career they want. The saddest thing I read today was someone’s post saying that if you can’t afford college (like it’s their fault), go to trade school.

As long as students who get more education than the universal norm have some skin in the game, this is fine. Those who get more than what is offered to all need to either pay for it themselves or merit it in some way, though. That is only fair.

 

[Rhubarb]

Since bachelor’s degrees are essentially worthless, why not? Heck, just hand them out to those who actually show up for their high school graduation.

Bachelor’s degrees aren’t essentially worthless. The purpose of an undergrad class (at least as far as the dean of letters and sciences was concerned) is that upon completion of a class, the student should be able to have a conversational level understanding of a subject. Upon completing, say… a history class, a student should be able to hold an intelligent conversation on the subject and lay it out, survey style. A bachelor’s degree doesn’t represent a specialization in any given subject - but rather a general education with a focus. And I think it’s very important there are people who are knowledgeable about history, and art, and language, and such, for the society in general.

The problem is we just value them less in our modern society. We’re well into an age where information isn’t scarce as it was even 50 years ago. It used to be that a degree in any subject was a guaranteed job. So we drilled into people to go to college and earn that golden ticket. Which glutted the market with college grads.

And I don’t think that’s bad. (even though it’s hurt me, personally, having chosen a liberal arts degree) The labor market will correct. That’s why I tell my students that if you want job security and great pay, look into trade school. A journeyman plumber, electrician, welder, or (heavy machinery) operator, etc, will earn a very comfortable living and pretty much always have work.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I’ll add a few thoughts.

First, other countries have free college education. Germany, for example. A few years ago they tried charging a relatively small fee, and after a short period, they went back to having it free. In other countries, like Canada or the UK, universities are reasonably priced. (And of course, US students can go there…)

Second, what do you mean by “college”? I’m sure no one is saying that Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and all the other private universities should be free. It’s just the public community colleges and public universities. If Harvard wants to charge $60,000 a year, and I can go to the U. of Michigan for free, Harvard better make a compelling case why it’s worth $240,000 ($60,000 x 4) for that degree.

Third, you need to look at the costs. Why have the costs of higher education spiralled out of control, far beyond even the rate of health care costs? I looked into this a couple years ago and found three main factors:

1. proliferation of administrative staff. All those deans and asst. deans. (It’s not the professors–a full professor makes in the $80s; but of course this can vary by dept., and a lot have consulting jobs on the side.)
2. Every campus I’ve been on lately has one or more building projects going on. All this costs a tremendous amount of money. And if your sports programs are bringing in less revenue than they cost, eliminate the sports. Do you need the new dorm with all the bells and whistles?
3. IT. Computers and their upkeep are a tremendous cost. Yes, some are necessary, but it shouldn’t be a tail wagging the dog situation.

Fourth, can we afford to go on with the current situation? People living with their parents, postponing marriage, and not having children, all because of student debt? What would happen to the economy if all those graduates bought a house (and all that entails) within a few years of graduating, got married, and had children? It seems like the recipe for a booming economy to me.

Fifth, get a realistic grasp of the relative increase in costs. I went to an excellent private university you have all heard of. I had $2,000 in scholarship money. That paid for tuition, books, room, and board with a few hundred left over. That decreased over the four years, but not by much. And a summer job (my first was at minimum wage, $1.25 an hour at the time) could actually make a meaningful impact on the cost of college. Not today, and certainly not with unpaid internships. My father went to Notre Dame. I came across an invoice last week for room, board, and tuition for an entire semester: $500. That was 1929. Even in today’s dollars, that’s not very much.

Sixth, as with anything, whether it’s health care, college, public roads, parks, etc. as soon as you divide the population and say “OK, you guys over here have to pay, but you guys over here get it for free,” you have set up a two-tier system. Romney mocked the 40% or so who were getting gov. assistance. Of course he didn’t mock the corporations who were getting far more in tax breaks. But creating a two-tier system–in anything–is a recipe for conflict and feelings of superiority vs. inferiority. Bad.

 

[1cthlctrth]

Free? What the Left considers “free” is when American taxpayers have to pay for it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Free? What the Left considers “free” is when American taxpayers have to pay for it.

This is understood. Free police and fire protection is similar. Free highways are similar. Free public parks are similar.

 

[Socrates92]

Not to mention the low quality coffee that might churn out.