Do you think the rich man was in purgatory? (Luke 16)

[ResoluteSheep]

I’ve just read ‘‘The Biblical Basis of the Catholic Faith’’ and on page 220, John Salza says that it might have been possible that the rich man was in purgatory considering how he showed compassion for his brothers, wanting to warn them ‘‘not to come to this place’’

In hell, there is no compassion, only hatred. Do you think the rich man was in purgatory instead? I mean the description of the place the rich man was in sounded much more like hell, but considering how he still cared for his brothers not wanting them to come to the place, do you think ‘‘the place of torment’’ was purgatory instead of hell?

 

[dshix]

I’ve just read ‘‘The Biblical Basis of the Catholic Faith’’ and on page 220, John Salza says that it might have been possible that the rich man was in purgatory considering how he showed compassion for his brothers, wanting to warn them ‘‘not to come to this place’’

In hell, there is no compassion, only hatred. Do you think the rich man was in purgatory instead? I mean the description of the place the rich man was in sounded much more like hell, but considering how he still cared for his brothers not wanting them to come to the place, do you think ‘‘the place of torment’’ was purgatory instead of hell?

I’ve always wondered that myself. Very interesting.

Or it could have just been a parable…

 

[123me]

Well I always read as hell, for one reason being 16:26 saying a great gulf has been fixed, if it’s fixed then how could anyone cross over ever, with purgatory we are guaranteed salvation so it is not fixed is it?

 

[boomerang]

I think he was in purgatory due to:

1. He was able to see and communicate with the people in “Abraham’s bosom,” and Lazarus and Abraham were able to see and hear him as well. In what kind of heaven are the saints in such close proximity to people suffering in hell? Would heaven be “heaven” if the saints had to constantly see and hear the suffering of the damned? That makes no sense to me.
2. Even though he was being punished, he still expressed concern for others. He still retained his humanity.
3. The only reason given as to why he was being punished and Lazarus was being comforted was this:

“…remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.”

To me, it sounds like Lazarus did his purgatory on earth, while the rich man is doing his in the afterlife. :twocents:

 

[Nelka]

I’ve always believed Hell not Purgatory.

I do hope the other rich young man got to Heaven.

 

[egretps]

I think he was in purgatory due to:

1. He was able to see and communicate with the people in “Abraham’s bosom,” and Lazarus and Abraham were able to see and hear him as well. In what kind of heaven are the saints in such close proximity to people suffering in hell? Would heaven be “heaven” if the saints had to constantly see and hear the suffering of the damned? That makes no sense to me.
2. Even though he was being punished, he still expressed concern for others. He still retained his humanity.
3. The only reason given as to why he was being punished and Lazarus was being comforted was this:

To me, it sounds like Lazarus did his purgatory on earth, while the rich man is doing his in the afterlife. :twocents:

Agreed!

I once had a nun tell me that the Church has never declared anyone is in Hell. But, the Lord did imply that many would go there.

Several saints like Blessed Maria Tiagi had the ability to see who was in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. She never would tell someone that their loved one was in Hell even if that is what she saw.

 

[Jomann]

I always think in purgatory about this parable.

 

[truetofaith]

It has to be hell…because why would he not want his brothers to come to this place of torment? They will eventually go to heaven if this was purgatory.

Almost everyone will most likely go to purgatory, except for the saints & people who die after getting a plenary indulgence.

Jesus was making the point of not being lost for eternity.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

It has to be hell…because why would he not want his brothers to come to this place of torment? They will eventually go to heaven if this was purgatory.

Almost everyone will most likely go to purgatory, except for the saints & people who die after getting a plenary indulgence.

Jesus was making the point of not being lost for eternity.

Thanks for providing yet another good reason to believe that the man was in hell!

This question comes up frequently, and it is always the same reasons used for why the man was in Purgatory, or why the man was in Hell.

But you’re the first I’ve seen to add the strong logic of the man not wanting his brothers to come there as PROOF that it was hell!

First of all, Purgatory is not a place of torment, it is a place of Purification from sin. So anyone in Purgatory knows he will be soon (or at least eventually) released in a state of heavenly purity and WILL CROSS OVER to Heaven, which Father Abraham says is IMPOSSIBLE for the rich man.

Some try to make points out of the parables necessary incidentals like the fact that the rich man can even talk to Abraham etc. Or that he doesn’t wish his brothers to come to this place (which many saints have said would increase his torment further.)

Lastly, people that see Purgatory here miss ENTIRELY the point of the parable. This parable has NEVER been used by the Catholic Church as an argument for Purgatory. What it is, on the bare face of it, is a very graphic and severe warning to those like the rich man. It is also a parable about the stubborness of infidelity; which is illustrated at the end when Abraham says EVEN IF A MAN WERE TO RETURN FROM THE DEAD, they would still not believe! (viz: repent)

 

[De_Maria]

I’ve just read ‘‘The Biblical Basis of the Catholic Faith’’ and on page 220, John Salza says that it might have been possible that the rich man was in purgatory considering how he showed compassion for his brothers, wanting to warn them ‘‘not to come to this place’’

In hell, there is no compassion, only hatred. Do you think the rich man was in purgatory instead? I mean the description of the place the rich man was in sounded much more like hell, but considering how he still cared for his brothers not wanting them to come to the place, do you think ‘‘the place of torment’’ was purgatory instead of hell?

The Catholic Church has not defined this verse, so we can all opine freely.

Yes, I believe it can be understood as “purgatory”. Whatever it is, it is before the final Judgment and it could be some place of suffering before the final condemnation.

Anyway, there are other places where hell and purgatory are confused. For example. When Christ says,

Matthew 7:13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

Here, Jesus juxtaposes heaven, the narrow gate, with what? Hell, the wide gate?

I don’t believe this to be true. I believe Jesus has juxtaposed heaven with purgatory.

Most people will wind up in purgatory. That is only logical. Most people are good. But few people are perfect. Thus, most people will go through purgatory to get to heaven.

Or do you believe that most people are perfectly wicked?

 

[truetofaith]

Thanks for providing yet another good reason to believe that the man was in hell!

This question comes up frequently, and it is always the same reasons used for why the man was in Purgatory, or why the man was in Hell.

But you’re the first I’ve seen to add the strong logic of the man not wanting his brothers to come there as PROOF that it was hell!

First of all, Purgatory is not a place of torment, it is a place of Purification from sin. So anyone in Purgatory knows he will be soon (or at least eventually) released in a state of heavenly purity and WILL CROSS OVER to Heaven, which Father Abraham says is IMPOSSIBLE for the rich man.

Some try to make points out of the parables necessary incidentals like the fact that the rich man can even talk to Abraham etc. Or that he doesn’t wish his brothers to come to this place (which many saints have said would increase his torment further.)

Lastly, people that see Purgatory here miss ENTIRELY the point of the parable. This parable has NEVER been used by the Catholic Church as an argument for Purgatory. What it is, on the bare face of it, is a very graphic and severe warning to those like the rich man. It is also a parable about the stubborness of infidelity; which is illustrated at the end when Abraham says EVEN IF A MAN WERE TO RETURN FROM THE DEAD, they would still not believe! (viz: repent)

Thank you for explaining this much more clearly than I did!

P.S. Jesus did return from the dead & people still don’t believe!

 

[truetofaith]

In Luke 16: 22, 23 it says : "The rich man also died & was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up & saw Abraham, with Lazarus by his side.

footnote : Greek - Hades.

I checked New International Version, King James, and two Catholic Bibles :Confraternity Bible w/ Douay Texts & Good News Bible.
They all say hell or Hades!

 

[AugustTherese]

The Catholic Church has not defined this verse, so we can all opine freely.

Yes, I believe it can be understood as “purgatory”. Whatever it is, it is before the final Judgment and it could be some place of suffering before the final condemnation.

Anyway, there are other places where hell and purgatory are confused. For example. When Christ says,

Matthew 7:13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

Here, Jesus juxtaposes heaven, the narrow gate, with what? Hell, the wide gate?

I don’t believe this to be true. I believe Jesus has juxtaposed heaven with purgatory.

Most people will wind up in purgatory. That is only logical. Most people are good. But few people are perfect. Thus, most people will go through purgatory to get to heaven.

Or do you believe that most people are perfectly wicked?

“Destruction” means destruction, not purification/cleansing, i.e. those in Purgatory are still attached to the Mystical Body of Christ (Church Suffering) and are not on the road that leads to destruction, i.e. hell, but rather on the road that leads to eternal life. Just my humble opinion.

 

[De_Maria]

“Destruction” means destruction, not purification/cleansing, i.e. those in Purgatory are still attached to the Mystical Body of Christ (Church Suffering) and are not on the road that leads to destruction, i.e. hell, but rather on the road that leads to eternal life. Just my humble opinion.

Yes, but destruction of what? And you didn’t answer the question. Do you believe that the vast majority of people are evil and deserve to go into eternal punishment? Yes or no.

 

[AugustTherese]

Yes, but destruction of what? And you didn’t answer the question. Do you believe that the vast majority of people are evil and deserve to go into eternal punishment? Yes or no.

Destruction of ourselves.

Every human person (aside from Our Lady) deserves, inasmuch as the account of our sins deserve, to go into eternal punishment. Thank God for his ineffable Mercy through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son.

By nature, no human person is inherently evil; we are either stained with original sin or left in a frail state (concupiscence) after Holy Baptism. So, me saying yes or no depends on your definition of ‘evil’,

Make sense?

 

[dshix]

Destruction of ourselves.

Every human person (aside from Our Lady) deserves, inasmuch as the account of our sins deserve, to go into eternal punishment. Thank God for his ineffable Mercy through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son.

By nature, no human person is inherently evil; we are either stained with original sin or left in a frail state (concupiscence) after Holy Baptism. So, me saying yes or no depends on your definition of ‘evil’,

Make sense?

Well stated.

 

[De_Maria]

Destruction of ourselves.

Every human person (aside from Our Lady) deserves, inasmuch as the account of our sins deserve, to go into eternal punishment.

Not Catholic Teaching. Where did you get this idea?

Thank God for his ineffable Mercy through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son.

True. But not the question at hand.

By nature, no human person is inherently evil;

Correct. But not the point. The verse speaks of ways to get to heaven. There is a narrow gate and a wide gate. Most people claim that the wide gate goes to eternal punishment. But that would mean that most men are so evil that even God can’t purify them in purgatory.

Jesus is speaking of two gates. Is it two gates to heaven? Or two gates into the after life? If it is two gates into eternal life, why does Jesus, according to your interpretation, leave Purgatory out of the picture?

And are more people going into eternal destruction than are going into purgatory? Really? Do you believe that the vast majority of people deserve eternal punishment? I

we are either stained with original sin or left in a frail state (concupiscence) after Holy Baptism. So, me saying yes or no depends on your definition of ‘evil’,

There is only one definition of evil. If you have more than one, clarify them.

Make sense?

No. You’re simply avoiding the question. I’ll ask it again.

Do you believe that the vast majority of people are evil and deserve to go into eternal punishment? Yes or no.

Or let me ask it differently. Do you believe that most people WILLFULLY turn away from God and embrace evil? Yes or no.

As for me, I don’t believe so. I agree with the Catechism which says that most people are searching for God in the shadows.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

But my question is addressed to you.

Here’s something else to keep in mind. Most people of the world are free. But a few are in jail. Most in jail will be released. A small minority will be incarcerated for life and an even smaller minority will be executed for their crime.

Is man more merciful than God? You claim that God destroys the vast majority of people in hell. Yet man forgives the sins of most and destroys only a small minority as punishment for their crimes.

 

[TK421]

The people currently in hell want for those on Earth - including friends and family - to be with them in torment. They have no love in their heart. So, the Rich Man wanting to warn his brothers does suggest that it is Purgatory. Abraham also addresses him as “child”, which is a bit unusual since Christ makes the explicit point in the Gospel, towards the Pharisees, that the impenitent are not the children of God but the children of the devil. But, the rich man could be in hell and speaking deceptively, and maybe Abraham is using “child” in a different sense.

By a legion of private revelation, purgatory is a place that is enormously excruciating and anybody in that state would direly not want anybody to go through it (even if it is nonetheless infinitely better than hell)

Scripture can sometimes be read as an onion, with the parable simultaneously understood in the context of either Purgatory or hell.

 

[truetofaith]

Why does the Bible say… hell

 

[James248]

The people currently in hell want for those on Earth - including friends and family - to be with them in torment. They have no love in their heart. So, the Rich Man wanting to warn his brothers does suggest that it is Purgatory. Abraham also addresses him as “child”, which is a bit unusual since Christ makes the explicit point in the Gospel, towards the Pharisees, that the impenitent are not the children of God but the children of the devil. But, the rich man could be in hell and speaking deceptively, and maybe Abraham is using “child” in a different sense.

The rich man wanted it for selfish reasons. The man was leading his brothers astray because of his lifestyle of omission. Jesus said earlier that terrible things await those who scandalize others. So the rich man was looking to save himself from further torment if his brothers died.