Do You Think There Will Be an Official Postponement Beyond Nov 27, 2011 For the Implementation of the New Translation of the Roman Missal by the USCCB

[ProVobis]

I was not Catholic at the time that the Novus Ordo was introduced. But, based on the current reaction to a relatively minor change, there must have been sporadic gunfire back then…

English was being slowly introduced into the liturgy back in 1965, well before the Novus Ordo was promulgated. The “for you and for all” consecration was started around 1967, and there were many even orthodox Catholics who started questioning the very validity of the English Mass. There were papers and articles written on it if you’d like to check. Just saying.

 

[po18guy]

English was being slowly introduced into the liturgy back in 1965, well before the Novus Ordo was promulgated. The “for you and for all” consecration was started around 1967, and there were many even orthodox Catholics who started questioning the very validity of the English Mass. There were papers and articles written on it if you’d like to check. Just saying.

Instead of celebrating the arrival of a more literal and historically accurate translation, many seem to be upset. Not I.

 

[ProVobis]

Instead of celebrating the arrival of a more literal and historically accurate translation, many seem to be upset. Not I.

Although much is lost in any translation, I’m one of those who thinks the ICEL did well in its job to not only use the “dynamic” approach but also create an English translation separate from that of the Church of England, who had been in the translation business a whole lot longer than the ICEL. But having been barraged with criticism from the start, it was just a matter of time before the 1965-1972 translation would be revised to something more historic, as you state. However it is debatable whether the old Anglican liturgical text (BCP, which is very similar to the new translation) is that much more accurate; in fact it was ruled invalid by Quo Primum back in 1570 if not by other means. But if the Church says it’s valid after Nov 26th and all copyright issues will have been resolved, then that’s that.

 

[Phemie]

It is if you’re one of those who have committed the current prayers to memory. People generally despise changes of any kind (unless it profits them somehow). And especially so when they have to rememorize. The “and also with you” response has been so ingrained among most that even outside the liturgy they use it. I notice even the Divine Liturgies and Protestant liturgies use this response. And it’s not just the simple responses.

Although I’m happy with the new translation, I will find it difficult to go back to using a missal–at 58 it’s going to take time to relearn the responses by heart. The changes may not seem extensive but they require relearning pretty much everything but the Agnus Dei. That is a big deal when the responses are automatic now.

 

[Joannm]

Although I’m happy with the new translation, I will find it difficult to go back to using a missal–at 58 it’s going to take time to relearn the responses by heart. The changes may not seem extensive but they require relearning pretty much everything but the Agnus Dei. That is a big deal when the responses are automatic now.

Do what I am doing…I have been working on memorizing the texts now. I have it in my mind when I pray the prayers at Mass. And, it has happened where I accidentally prayed the new texts. The Gloria I think will be the hardest to memorize but at our parish we just sing a refrain and the choir sings the rest of the text.

It may help that I am running workshops throughout the diocese so these texts are becoming very familiar by now,

 

[Cat]

We’ll all get used to it and learn it. It won’t happen in one Sunday, but it will come.

The one criticism that I’ve read is that some of the new translation seems a bit “fruity”.

Oh, well. We’ll get used to it.

 

[ProVobis]

The Gloria I think will be the hardest to memorize but at our parish we just sing a refrain and the choir sings the rest of the text.

If I remember right, the Gloria isn’t said during Advent so you won’t need to have it memorized until Christmas. And the Nicene Creed is said only on Sundays, if at all. (Apostles Creed is probably said more often.)

Although I’m happy with the new translation, I will find it difficult to go back to using a missal–at 58 it’s going to take time to relearn the responses by heart. The changes may not seem extensive but they require relearning pretty much everything but the Agnus Dei. That is a big deal when the responses are automatic now.

If I remember right, you attend the French Masses. Do they plan retranslations as well?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

No, why should there be? There has been plenty of time for education and plenty of time before that the ensure the new translation is as the Church wants it. I see no reason to postpone and I certainly hope it isn’t postponed because that usually just makes everything more difficult in the end.

 

[laszlo]

Almost certainly there will be parishes who will not implement the new Missal. Also probably some bishops will give permit to delay the introduction for individual cases. Official postponement for every parish is unlikely.

 

[Stitchwort]

Canada tends to be more “liberal” than the US, and for awhile it was up in the air whether we would be implementing the changes this coming Advent or not.

However, in our parish bulletin today there was a short notice that the new translation will be used starting on the First Sunday of Advent.

Sigh of relief.

 

[PattiDay]

England and Ireland will begin using the new liturgy in September. We are too far along the way to put up with a postponement from the USCCB.

 

[Qwestions]

Jennifer J—Thank you for the side-by-side comparisons. I needed a good laugh! With the exception of the Eucharistic Prayer II, where the current version says “eternal,” why the new one says “everlasting,” and where the current version says “everlasting,” why the new one says “eternal!” Looks like they overlooked the Eucharistic Prayer II in their effort to reverse the words! How can we take seriously that this new wording is more authentic or more meaningful? How gratifying to know they spent their time and church dollars on such nitpicking! How disappointing that even in the highest of the church portals those who lust to be important exercise their authority in the manner of a not-too-distant USA president (“because I can”)! (Um…guess that goes for the current president, too.)

And check out that “new” wording! Nothing like obfuscating meaning, huh? Since our kids are falling away in astonishing numbers as they are graduated from high school, why not sacrifice clarity of meaning for, um, uh…“fuzzying up” —the better to confuse and annoy!

This wasteful exercise of power because it’s within the realm of possible, no matter the cost, is inexcusable, but to paraphrase Pro Vobis, it’s a done deed, so we have to put up with it. Me? Well, I’m still saying the prayers as I was taught in the 40’s and 50’s, and shall continue to do so. As a matter of fact, I was taught that I should be willing to die for my right to say those prayers. So, if the church was correct in its teaching when I was taught, how could it be incorrect because of some hocus-pocus papers? And, now, my goodness! The Novus Ordo version was incorrect? My word! How ever can we explain this inconsistency to ourselves, let alone others? Why would the new version provide certain words, phrases, and clauses with less clear meanings or provoke new questions about intended meaning? But, hey, it’s a done deed, so git’er done! The faithful will make do, just as we have for the past 40 years!

The Novus Ordo was, indeed, thrust upon us in the '70’s. I would like to see another comparison of all three versions, side-by-side, without having to compare with my ancient Missal. However, the Novus Ordo proponents at least had the argument that here in the States we’d be offered the luxury of reading and responding in English, whereas the new version has, um…well, what DOES it have in its favor? Perhaps introducing the term consubstantiation? An Internet search quickly offers several Martin Luther King references. Now, THERE’s a thought for our beloved Catholic Mass!

 

[Phemie]

If I remember right, the Gloria isn’t said during Advent so you won’t need to have it memorized until Christmas. And the Nicene Creed is said only on Sundays, if at all. (Apostles Creed is probably said more often.)

The Gloria is said at least twice during Advent.

If I remember right, you attend the French Masses. Do they plan retranslations as well?

I attend French Masses when I can but my present parish is English. The French equivalent to ICEL is presently working on a French translation but I doubt that the changes will be extensive. It probably involves mainly the new saints prefaces, etc.The languages being so closely related, the present translation is already quite literal in many cases: things like ‘and with your spirit’ and ‘for the many’’ have been in the French Missal from the get go.

 

[Phemie]

Canada tends to be more “liberal” than the US, and for awhile it was up in the air whether we would be implementing the changes this coming Advent or not.

However, in our parish bulletin today there was a short notice that the new translation will be used starting on the First Sunday of Advent.

Sigh of relief.

It’s interesting to note that there still isn’t an official decree from the CCCB on this matter. There was a note about it on April 1 but the note said that the official decree would only come after they had something ‘clarified’. I did see an ad for official materials at the catechetical conference I attended this past weekend, so it appears that pew folders are already available. The Missal itself won’t be until October according to the CCCB publication arm’s rep at the conference. There are still 5 proofs to go according to him.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I’m still saying the prayers as I was taught in the 40’s and 50’s, and shall continue to do so. As a matter of fact, I was taught that I should be willing to die for my right to say those prayers.

Most of those prayers have been around for over 400 hundred years and are mostly the wording of Cranmer et al. (A lot of made up words: “The Lord BE with you”,“LIFT up your hearts”, "HALLOWED be thy name, “TRESPASSES,” etc.) So the new English will be more like the one used by the Church of England, which, of course, wanted nothing to do with preserving the Church’s Latin. Nor apparently did the ICEL, for that matter.

This wasteful exercise of power because it’s within the realm of possible, no matter the cost, is inexcusable.

Yes, this was most unfortunate. Translations are tremendously expensive and there are hundreds of them, in different vernaculars. But the Church felt it would be an advantage in some places, probably to those who never heard of the Mass. According to Vatican II, the Mass was intended to be said in Latin, where the (secular) law allows it. Nowhere was the all-vernacular-all-the-time intended.

 

[ProVobis]

The Gloria is said at least twice during Advent.

You’re correct, but it’s not on a Sunday (generally).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=204497

 

[oratorymatt]

England and Ireland will begin using the new liturgy in September. We are too far along the way to put up with a postponement from the USCCB.

Ah so it’s not just me who got that impression from the pastoral letter the other day?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

It better not get postponed. I’ve been looking forward to this for 2 years now. It’s not that big of a change, but an absolute change for the better.

 

[japhy]

Is this happening in all English speaking countries, the new missal? Is the book about the new mass on this site applicable for UK and Australia?

Books on the new English translation of the Mass (such as the one advertised in banners on CAF, and the ones I have written, advertised in my signature) should be applicable in the UK and Australia as well. (My books are being sold and used in the UK and Australia, as a matter of fact.)

 

[japhy]

I do not know if the USCCB would be the ones, but there may be some who vocally call into question the accuracy and quality of some parts of the translation. There’s already been a thread on CAF from a month or two ago where a Post-Communion prayer was dissected in Latin and the new English translation, and the new translation was shown to be poorly translated to the extent of misrepresenting the important message of the prayer! (The particular problem in the translation of that prayer was that the antecedent of a pronoun was separated from its pronoun by another noun, such that the pronoun appeared to be related to the second (wrong) noun, not the first (correct) noun.)