Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

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Psalm 36

That says it best.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen restated Psalm 36 when he stated: “The worst thing in the world is not SIN, it is denying that we are SINNERS. SINNERS who deny there is SIN, deny thereby the remedy of SIN, and thus cut themselves off forever from HIM who came to REDEEM.”
This seems very persuasive to me. I am reminded of two things I have read.

Some historian, and I believe it was Alistair Cooke, said that as compared to people in prior ages, (he was talking about the Renaissance at that moment) moderns “neither sin well nor repent well”. What is it to “sin well”? It is to do it with a robust willingness and mental clarity. We know it’s wrong and choose it. We might intend it only temporarily, but there is no question in our minds what we’re doing. Moderns, on the other hand, temporize with evil. We invent excuses, even invent our own moralities, in order to deny that we’re doing anything wrong in the first place or, at minimum, deny its seriousness.

And so, in “repenting well”, we repent the reality of what we did, wholeheartedly and with clarity of mind and will. If, however, we temporized with the acts wrongfulness in the first place, we might not repent at all or do it lightly.

Artificial birth control is brought to my mind in thinking about this. The Church teaches that it’s wrong. So how do we react to that? Well, many of us find a way to think of it as not wrong after all. Some, even in doing it, accept that it’s wrong, confess it and at least struggle with it. The latter “sin well and repent well”. The same is true of many of our wrongful deeds.

Ste Therese of Lisieux asserted that at the point of death (whether right before or right after, isn’t clear) we see with utter clarity the true nature of everything we ever did. God’s love and forgiveness is there, and we accept it with painful humility or we reject it in our pride, choosing self-worship for all eternity. This might seem radical, but it is really just a view of the nature of “final penitence”. We either have it or we don’t, and the likelihood of our accepting it is likely related to the way we approached sin and repentence previously.

None of this is so very incomprehensible, it seems to me. We are told that the fallen angels had massive intellects and complete clarity of thought. In choosing to rebel, they were in no way deceived or confused. With intellects so very superior to our own, and without emotional impediments, they chose to be disconnected from God, knowing totally what that meant, then and forever. Hard to understand in a way, but perhaps not entirely beyond comprehension. They were magnificent, we are told, so magnificent that if we could have perceived one as it is/was, we would not for a moment doubt that it was God Himself.

We are told that the choice was to “not serve”. Perhaps all angels that did not reject God knew they were foregoing self-admiration and self-worship for all eternity, and perhaps there was much to admire and to worship. With, say, an intellect a hundred million times as great as our own, might a being choose to engage in its own intellectual achievements forever?

We know that people have done it, though we don’t know whether they persisted in it to the last. Take Lenin, for example. He was so brilliant that Soviet scientists kept his brain preserved so they could perhaps figure out why he was such a genius. He thought it of himself, certainly, and rejected not only religion but even his supposed ideological predecessors in the utter self-assurance that he out-thought them all.

It can be painful to accept love. It can be painful to accept forgiveness when we have wronged someone. It can be painful to accept kindness sometimes. Can a human being, when faced with the real nature of his wrongful acts (always worse than we think they are in the moment) refuse forgiveness out of pride? It’s hard to imagine when salvation or damnation are the alternative consequences, but we do see people (including ourselves) do it all the time when stakes are far less.

What, then, is damnation? We don’t know for sure, though there are lots of statements about it, including by Jesus Himself. But what is it like in practical terms? Some theologians have told us the worst part of it is eternal separation from God. (The nature of that being worthy of a thread all its own) Is it possible, then, that we might freely choose it? Again, it’s hard to picture, but if we think seriously enough about our own wrongs and our own pride and suppress all rationalizations and self-exonerations, we can picture it at least a little.

Is truth-seeking and clarity-seeking, then, perhaps the thing we must most assiduously seek in this life, along with acting on that clarity? It seems likely to me. Perhaps we all need to learn to “sin well and repent well” while the opportunity still presents.

But we then need to ask whether that is an act of the intellect or of the will. Well, seems it can’t help being both, but perhaps the “will” part of it is the more important. Do we actually try to know the Will of God? Is it more important that we try to know it and act on it than it is to intellectually understand the nature of good and evil? Inasmuch as there have been philosophers with very clear and cogent thoughts but who lived evil lives all the same, it seems the first is the more important.
 
Granny asked OneSheep

Would you kindly explain the Catholic teachings regarding God’s view about forgiveness from His divine position?

Thank you.

This is Mark’s view from a human position. Would you kindly explain the Catholic teachings regarding God’s view about forgiveness from His divine position?
Granny, Dear

Your turn for a quote oops? Mark was quoting Jesus, who we proclaim as divine.
Of course, you may start with the Catholic position that a human is capable of Mortal Sin which destroys the State of Sanctifying Grace and thus rejects the relationship between God and herself or himself. Do you need more time to find the Catholic teachings about God?
I am not denying capablility, I am asking if there ever is an occurrence of anyone knowingly and willingly rejecting God. Have you thought of an example yet?
Luke 23:34

New International Version
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Jesus did say those words. Now it is necessary to determine if Jesus Christ is Divine. Jesus being Divine is crucial knowledge because that is what gives Him the authority to forgive mortal sins. Declaring that Jesus is Divine should help you find the Catholic teachings about God as God the Creator, and the true possibility that a true human being can knowingly and willingly reject God–which, in the Catholic Church is the state of mortal sin.

In the Catholic Church, there is the teaching that Jesus Christ, hanging bloody on His freely chosen mode of human death, is still the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Because He is Divine, He knows the state of individual souls. Thus, He proclaims forgiveness with the strict requirement of invincible ignorance. “For they know not what they do.” (Luke 23: 33-43) An example of the Divine Jesus teaching about the state of mortal sin is Matthew 22: 8-14. Verse 12 needs to be read twice. That is real Catholicism.

Jesus also knows which individuals in the crowd and which individuals raising Him above the earth are in the state of mortal sin. Adultery was popular. What occasionally happens with individual interpretations of Luke 23: 33-43 is that the basic element (divinity of Jesus) is conveniently left out.
Here are the comments in my Bible of Matthew 22:8-14 (Catholic Pastoral Edition)

“It is better not to associate this saying (v 14) too much with the parable of the of th ebanquet, because we find it also in other places in the Gospel. Here Jesus advises us that only a few discover through the Gospel true freedom and new life. Then, are we saved? Yes and no - because salvation, for Jesus, does not mean to excape from the punishment of hell, but to reach perfection.”

We have absolutely no evidence that Jesus was addressing any fewer than the entire crowd present in Luke 23:34. He was addressing the unrepentant supporters of His crucifixion. The Bible reference is to the same words by St. Steven when he was being stoned to death.
Because I am not divine like Jesus, I neither have the authority nor power to give an exact example of a particular person knowingly and willingly rejecting God. However, when you look for the Catholic teachings on human nature, you will find that any human person has the potential of knowingly and willingly rejecting God.
Granny, dear, we are commanded to forgive, and use of the gift of understanding is very helpful. The exercise in this thread is pertinent, and St. Augustine did this very exercise in his Confessions. You do not have to name any specific person.

If the potential is there, then please provide an example of how it could happen.

Thanks.🙂
 
Hi frangiuliano! (nice name!)

Thanks for the heads-up about Romans 1:19-20. Very pertinent to this thread. When I read scripture depicting God’s “wrath”, I wonder “did this person forgive?”. Like in this case, did Paul forgive the people he was criticizing? It’s hard to say. What I do know is that when I fail to forgive, it is automatic that I project that God does not forgive either. “A viewpoint is a view from a point.”
I’ve been away a couple of days so I’ve missed a lot, I’m sure.

Paul didn’t think he should forgive the people he was talking about. He believed in a personal relationship with God, so it would have been up to God to forgive them. He was just saying that from the beginning of time people would have had to know that God exists. Well, let’s not discuss Romans. I’m sure you understood it.

We do tend to project our beliefs onto God. We’re good at that! But God is God.
But why would you think that God does not forgive? He’s been trying to forgive us from the beginning of time.
What I am saying is that there is a place for wrath, it has its purpose in the human and the capacity for wrath is a gift from God. However, Jesus calls us to forgive, and forgiveness does not condone sin, but it does extract wrath from the forgiver. If I think I have forgiven, but I still feel wrath towards the person, I am only kidding myself. It is easy for me to point and condemn, saying “he should have known better”, but from my observation now, if he did know better, he would not have sinned. One tricky part of all of this is that as soon as I point my finger at someone, my mind is already going into blindness mode.
Wrath certainly has its place. This can be learned in adult catechism. Goes hand in hand with justice - God’s justice. Abortion can cause wrath. And forgiveness does extract wrath from the forgiver but sometimes it doesn’t happen right away. You can still feel wrath; forgiveness is a matter of the will. Feelings have nothing to do with it. If you continue in time you find that eventually the feeling goes away too. you just have to be honest.

Sometimes you know better but you sin anyway. How could this be? It’s the sin nature. You must be familiar with this concept.
A priest once told us that many people are exposed to the idea that God is wrathful and unmerciful. He said that a person is better off rejecting God, for this is the wrong idea, the wrong characterization of Abba. On the other hand, so many people believe in this very notion, of a “wrathful God”. In my mind, it is understandable to believe in a wrathful God, and such belief has its place in our journeys. “Wrong” is too strong a word, IMO.
I can hardly believe a priest said that it’s better for a person to reject God rather than to believe He is wrathful and unmerciful. This is preposterous! Which seminary did he go to??? You’re never better off rejecting God! You might have an incorrect idea of Him, and that would be the priests/church’s fault! But at least you believe in Him and are headed toward heaven. If you reject God you aren’t. How could he say such a thing? Maybe he knows God as Abba which is very nice and sweet, but I’d rather know Him as a mad God than not know Him at all.

Of course God must be wrathful. He’s pretty darn mad at us, in general. Thankfully He knew how badly we would screw up and sent Jesus to make us understand salvation. God is a good God but He is also a JUST God.
Now, let us look at one of your examples, the example of the woman who has a “convenience” abortion, for example. Let’s start with a question. Does the woman know the value of the gift of a child, especially this child?
Give it a think. Pick any reasonable answer, and we can investigate.
If it’s a convenience abortion the answer is simple: No. If you believe a child is a gift, you accept that gift, whatever it takes. There are other reasons to abort, but you specifically asked this one and I can’t really think beyond this for this scenario.

Let me run thru the other posts.

God bless
Fran
 
Granny, Dear

Your turn for a quote oops? Mark was quoting Jesus, who we proclaim as divine.

I am not denying capablility, I am asking if there ever is an occurrence of anyone knowingly and willingly rejecting God. Have you thought of an example yet?

Here are the comments in my Bible of Matthew 22:8-14 (Catholic Pastoral Edition)

“It is better not to associate this saying (v 14) too much with the parable of the of th ebanquet, because we find it also in other places in the Gospel. Here Jesus advises us that only a few discover through the Gospel true freedom and new life. Then, are we saved? Yes and no - because salvation, for Jesus, does not mean to excape from the punishment of hell, but to reach perfection.”

We have absolutely no evidence that Jesus was addressing any fewer than the entire crowd present in Luke 23:34. He was addressing the unrepentant supporters of His crucifixion. The Bible reference is to the same words by St. Steven when he was being stoned to death.

Granny, dear, we are commanded to forgive, and use of the gift of understanding is very helpful. The exercise in this thread is pertinent, and St. Augustine did this very exercise in his Confessions. You do not have to name any specific person.

If the potential is there, then please provide an example of how it could happen.

Thanks.🙂
Perfect example.
The real live first human person on planet earth. 😃

When you have a free moment, please refer to the first three chapters of Genesis. Personally, I like to have the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, at my side because there are Catholic doctrines flowing from some mighty verses in those amazing three chapters.

In Mark 11: 20- 25, it is perfectly acceptable to look at the instructions given to humans. And yes, we are taught to forgive. That is part of the commandment to love our neighbor. When we forgive someone, then we pray for that person. What I am hoping for is that you can explain the “heavenly Father’s” forgiveness according to Catholic teachings.

I think that the difficulty we are experiencing is that I look for Catholic teachings some of which are the result of chapter 14, Gospel of John. Currently, when there are so many legitimate views competing for our attention, I feel safe with the time-honored Catholic doctrines. I am at peace.

I pray that you are at peace.

I pray that prayer silently in tongues, because I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide you as you choose to follow.
 
You probably confuse me with someone else. I am as strong an atheist as they come. No fence for me. But I am also aware that I am not infallible, and as such I might be wrong.
If you think you might be wrong, I’d say your agnostic. Or you might just mean that the POSSIBILITY always exists that you might be wrong. Realistic. Nothing is impossible.
I am glad to confirm it. But the fact that I heard both of God and the Loch Ness Monster is irrelevant. I also head of Jupiter and Zeus and a plethora of other gods. There is no evidence for either of them. So just because I heard of God it does not mean that I have the necessary information to KNOW that God exists, and I don’t have the necessary information to accept God’s purported existence as a CREDIBLE hypothesis. The point is that I do not REJECT God, I simply reject the concept of God, and the offered evidence. This is the answer to the question posited in OP.
I’m sorry to say I can’t anwer to this. How to have the necessary information that the creator, who is invisible to the eye, exists? I would have reasons, but you’d reject each and every one and so it’s a waste of time for us right now.
Let’s be precise: “only a believer can reject God”. Someone believes that God exists can truthfully say: “I don’t want to have anything with God”. Non-Christians are UNABLE to reject God.
You say you do not reject God but the concept of God. As a christian, I find this concept fascinating, since to me God is a reality. It’s like this: I do not reject my car, I just reject the concept of my car. I’d love to understand that.

Now you say only a believer can reject God. And as an atheist, you’re right. You cannot reject something you don’t believe in. However, as a christian who understands christian theology I can tell you for sure that YOU have rejected God, and all non-christians reject God.
I am sorry, if I was not clear enough. The error was simple: “you cannot CHOOSE what you believe”. You either believe something or not. Many people will try to counter this: “but what about free will”? The answer is obvious; only a miniscule part of our thinking is subject to volitional decisions. I am sure you have all the evidence you need, but we are not all alike. Some are much more demanding about the evidence, others are no so much.
I can’t remember what this was about and can’t go back right now, not much time left for this post. Re choosing what to believe. I don’t quite know what free will has to do with this idea. Free will to choose, yes. But this only applys to christians making the right choice. So I don’t know what others mean so I can’t comment.

You must be one that is more demanding and requires more evidence. You cannot be demanding of God. We are too little for that. You can take Him or leave Him, it’s your loss if you leave him - for this life and for the next life, which you do not believe exists.
Jesus spoke about demanding evidence but you won’t accept that, of course.
The author was Josh McDowell, and of course I read it. It is a typical apologetic book, loaded with nonsense and errors. I am not interested in discussing it in detail, so I will only offer example. He offers the usual: “liar, lunatic or lord” choice and proudly proclaims that “one of them must be true”. Of course there is the fourth possibility: “legend”, which he conveniently forgets. Sorry, an apologist who makes such fundamental error has nothing to offer for me. I am glad that I don’t need the services of an attorney who makes such logical errors.
I’m not interested in discussing it either. I read it about 30 yrs ago and thought it was interesting. I don’t need books. I would however, and without getting into detail just say that I’d narrow the choices down even further instead of adding a possibility. Personally, I go with Lord or Lunatic.

I’m sure you must have heard that MAYBE he left out “legend” because the 4 gospels and some of the letters were written while people of Jesus’ time were still alive. I’d like to see books being written today about someone important that never existed.
I never had that experience.
Well, a personal encounter with God is probably the only way you would ever come to believe. If it’s all just nonsense to you right now.
Of course it does not. There is an erroneous saying: “absence of proof is not a proof of absence”… but the correct version is: “absence of evidence is a strong evidence of absence”.
I’m willing to go with the second. I have evidence, but you wouldn’t accept it. Open mindedness is a great thing. I’m sure you’re one of those persons who believes they have one. But do you?

God bless
 
Thank you for your response. I was speaking of children growing up in a constant atmosphere of indifference and lack of religious understanding; (not specifically pertaining to age, as they all grow up) You are correct that it would be difficult to claim absolute absence of exposure to God in our current climate of technology. But does simply being exposed consecrate understanding? It seems a great deal of this thread is based on assumption and generality. I don’t think it is man’s decision whether anyone is going to heaven; nor can we accurately assume what each individual’s true understanding of “sin” might be. Compassion, empathy, and love (as Christ would do) yields tolerance and patience in the face of judgment. In my opinion, it is not my place to determine the status of the soul of another; or their acceptance or rejection of Faith. Yet, it is my place to love them and nurture the presence of God in them, if given the opportunity. Again, just my opinion. Thank you for this discussion.
Your post brings up one of the problems with christianity today.

Tolerance. “He who believes in everything believes in nothing.”

Yes, Simply being exposed means you have heard of the concept of God. Now what is there to understand? We let kids receive their first communion when they’re 8/9 years old. Know why? They’ll probably never understand more about communion, the host, the sacrifice, transubstantiatin, than they do at that age. Sad isn’t it? So it basically comes down to: Do I accept God or do I reject Him?

We have to start thinking along these lines and be careful about all this “love” stuff. God is a just God and many people are headed straight to hell. Theologically, we’re headed there at birth and must convert or repent (different meanings) in order to get to be with God.

Maybe this thread is based on assumption and generality. Maybe our church should be doing more to educate us and not leave it totally up to us to read and go to lessons and learn. Maybe when we go to Mass on Sunday some catechises could be done?

It certainly isn’t my decision as to who is going to heaven. But I can certainly state who the church says is going, or who Jesus says is going, or who Paul says is going. I think they have some authority and I can repeat what they say. In fact, I’m REQUIRED to evangelize. You must have heard about this. What do you think it means?

Also, how many ways are there of understanding sin? You must mean something else.

Jesus wasn’t only compassionate, empathetic and loving. He as also very mad and upset at humans who reject God in their heart and lead others astray (the pharisees for instance). Are we leading others astray but preaching God’s love and not His justice?? Jesus was not so tolerant and patient when He was turning over those tables in the Court of the Gentiles in the Temple at Jerusalem! He was not so tolerant when he was screaming at the brood of vipers!

Of course it’s your place to determine the acceptance or rejection of the faith of another. If your friend tells you He rejects God or faith, can you not determine his faith? Only in having the capability of determining his faith could you help him to find God or faith, as you correctly put it.

We cannot determine the state of a soul of a BELIEVER. Only God can do that. Here we would be overstepping all I’ve said above. Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers are told they must give communion to everyone, even if they think they are in mortal sin, because they cannot know the state of that persons soul at that moment.

Now I DO love your last sentence:

**Yet, it is my place to love them and nurture the presence of God in them, if given the opportunity. **

Great and wonderful. This is very important to me. It’s like we christians are afraid of stating what is right, correct a wrong idea, putting forth what we believe. It all has to do with this not judging others concept. You have to judge others; it just means that you can’t judge the state of their soul, as I said above.

Gosh. I can’t believe I carried on like this. It’s late and I’m tired and trying to catch up on this thread. I apologize if I sound brusque, I don’t mean too.

Bon Nuit
God bless you
 
I’ve been away a couple of days so I’ve missed a lot, I’m sure.

Paul didn’t think he should forgive the people he was talking about.
Hi frangiuliano,

Are you sure? Where did you get the inside scoop?🙂
We do tend to project our beliefs onto God. We’re good at that! But God is God.
But why would you think that God does not forgive? He’s been trying to forgive us from the beginning of time.
We are definitely on the same page on that.👍 I was speaking in generalities.
Wrath certainly has its place. This can be learned in adult catechism. Goes hand in hand with justice - God’s justice. Abortion can cause wrath. And forgiveness does extract wrath from the forgiver but sometimes it doesn’t happen right away. You can still feel wrath; forgiveness is a matter of the will. Feelings have nothing to do with it. If you continue in time you find that eventually the feeling goes away too. you just have to be honest.
Yes, with awareness, and forgiveness, the wrath goes away. Since God is omniscient, He does not “gain awareness” though. We are veering from the intent of this thread, though…
Sometimes you know better but you sin anyway. How could this be? It’s the sin nature. You must be familiar with this concept.
Do not assume, my brother. Please present an example. Specifically a case where a person K&W rejects God.
I can hardly believe a priest said that it’s better for a person to reject God rather than to believe He is wrathful and unmerciful. This is preposterous! Which seminary did he go to??? You’re never better off rejecting God! You might have an incorrect idea of Him, and that would be the priests/church’s fault! But at least you believe in Him and are headed toward heaven. If you reject God you aren’t. How could he say such a thing? Maybe he knows God as Abba which is very nice and sweet, but I’d rather know Him as a mad God than not know Him at all.
If we worship an incorrect idea of God, we are worshipping an idol. If a person sees God as cruel or unforgiving, then yes, he is better off, in the priests’ words, rejecting such a god. His intuition is telling the truth. This does not go against Catholic teachings. An unmerciful god is not God.
If it’s a convenience abortion the answer is simple: No. If you believe a child is a gift, you accept that gift, whatever it takes. There are other reasons to abort, but you specifically asked this one and I can’t really think beyond this for this scenario.
Let me run thru the other posts.
God bless
Fran
So the question I asked was, “Does the woman know the value of the gift of the child?” if the answer is “no”, then she does not know what she is doing. As was the case of Jesus on the cross, the crowd did not see Jesus’ value. They were blind.

Do you have another example of a person K&WR God? Or is there more to investigate with this woman?

Thanks, God bless you too!
 
Perfect example.
The real live first human person on planet earth. 😃
Dear Granny,

We both know that you consider Adam and Eve omniscient, so they are far from being human. Next example?
In Mark 11: 20- 25, it is perfectly acceptable to look at the instructions given to humans. And yes, we are taught to forgive. That is part of the commandment to love our neighbor. When we forgive someone, then we pray for that person. What I am hoping for is that you can explain the “heavenly Father’s” forgiveness according to Catholic teachings.
If we know Jesus, we know the Father. Remember? Or do Jesus and the Father sit around and argue about who is going to be forgiven?🤷
I pray that you are at peace.

I pray that prayer silently in tongues, because I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide you as you choose to follow.
Thank you.🙂 I pray for you too, Granny. For patience with me.

Have you thought of any scenarios yet?🙂
 
Hi frangiuliano,

Are you sure? Where did you get the inside scoop?🙂
Good Morning - Paul forgot to phone me last week, so no inside scoops! Hate words! I didn’t mean that Paul didn’t forgive the people he was talking about. I meant the it wasn’t up to Paul to do the forgiving in that case but that it was up to God. They were sinning against God by not believing, they weren’t sinning against Paul.
We are definitely on the same page on that.👍 I was speaking in generalities.
I’m happy that you agree; however, you can’t state it like that then. You make it sound like God doesn’t forgive. OR I misunderstood you.
Yes, with awareness, and forgiveness, the wrath goes away. Since God is omniscient, He does not “gain awareness” though. We are veering from the intent of this thread, though…
Uh oh. You better tell me the intent again because I agree with you. There’s something in your thinking, apparently, about God forgiving - but I don’t get it!
Do not assume, my brother. Please present an example. Specifically a case where a person K&W rejects God.
  1. I’m a sister
  2. This quote thing is making me crazy! I can’t get used to it, but that’s my problem. I just wish that in your question you put my idea so that I didn’t have to go back and forth.
  3. I don’t know what I’m assuming!
  4. My whole belief is that a person ALWAYS knowingly and willingly rejects God. Because you can’t reject something/one you don’t know about. So if they’re rejecting God it means they know about Him and have decided to reject Him. Am I missing something? It seems so easy to me.
If we worship an incorrect idea of God, we are worshipping an idol. If a person sees God as cruel or unforgiving, then yes, he is better off, in the priests’ words, rejecting such a god. His intuition is telling the truth. This does not go against Catholic teachings. An unmerciful god is not God.
No way Jose’! Wish I could speak to that priest. Sounds assuming of me doesn’t it? Can I know more than a priest? Even they have their ideas, don’t they? Like this one for instance. I’d like to see him tell the Pope his idea!

This is such a basic concept that I can hardly speak about it. But here goes. I agree that an unmerciful God is not God. Must we start at the beginning and speak of grace? God gave His only begotten son. That doesn’t sound to me like an unmerciful God. I didn’t say He was.

What I’m saying is that many people have an incorrect perception of God. They either see Him as being mean and uncaring or there wouldn’t be evil in the world, or they see Him as pure love and just do whatever they want to and feel that he’ll forgive them anyway because a loving God certainly won’t send anymore to hell.

(is this what you’re getting at? The ignorance of people who believe?)

However, doctrine does not save you. This I’m sure about or we’re all headed south. What saves us is belief in Christ. If you have that belief you can then work around doctrines and ideas, etc.

For instance if I don’t believe in God, how am I ever going to be able to go be with Him?
If I do believe in God but my dog dies, I could be very mad at Him and think what a mean God He is, but I would still be saved. And, in most cases, the anger goes away and sometimes it doesn’t and the person ABANDONS God and they become lost.

I can’t explain it better than this, but if we don’t agree on this there’s some fundamental misunderstanding here.
So the question I asked was, “Does the woman know the value of the gift of the child?” if the answer is “no”, then she does not know what she is doing. As was the case of Jesus on the cross, the crowd did not see Jesus’ value. They were blind.
This, of course, is a very interesting question which could start a whole new thread. Too many ideas here.
  1. Are you comparing the woman to Jesus? (might have misunderstood here…)
  2. Why does the woman NOT know the value of the baby IF she is christian?
  3. Some think Jesus didn’t know what He was doing!
  4. The crowd did not see Jesus’ value. Okay. But He hadn’t resurrected yet. They were seeing a man going to the cross. So did the apostles at that point. So they were blind, you’re right. But what has that got to do with anything? A week later they were not blind anymore and we’re not blind today. Please explain.
Do you have another example of a person K&WR God? Or is there more to investigate with this woman?
Thanks, God bless you too!
There’s nothing more to investigate with this woman because I apparently am not understanding what you’re getting at. We can’t go there in dribs and drabs. It’ll take forever. You’re going to have to state exactly where it is that you want to go. Well, you don’t HAVE TO but only if I’m to think any further on this topic. I mean, I think you’re an intelligent person but I can’t understand what you’re getting at.

Are you saying that everyone who rejects God is doing so unkowingly? Also, you mention something about ignorance and sin. This would need further explanation too. Of course there might be some element of ignorance in sin. If there’s ignorance God does not hold you accountable. “If you were blind, you would have no sin, but since you say ‘we see’ your sin remains.” John 9:41

God bless
 
Dear Granny,

We both know that you consider Adam and Eve omniscient, so they are far from being human. Next example?
I did find a source for the word omniscient. 👍

Seems that the word omniscient, in Catholic circles, applies to the Divine Creator. I do recommend that people, who have the opportunity to go to the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, follow the Creed professed by the congregation, especially the opening sentence which is Genesis 1: 1. Our God is an awesome God!.

Note to our gentle readers.

It is safe to talk about the reality of the first human being. Please do not be overly concerned that Adam could reject his Creator. We simply have to recognize the real Adam’s freedom to “initiate and control his own actions.” CCC 1730-1732.

Maybe one of the many reasons some, not all, people deny Adam’s existence is that they want humanity in general to avoid responsibility for personal choices. That is like eating half an apple and throwing the rest in the trash. Realistically, the other half of Adam’s reality is the important good news that, because of Adam, all of us have the opportunity to share in God’s life while we are on earth (State of Sanctifying Grace) and in joy eternal after bodily death. (Beatific Vision). Genesis 1: 27; CCC 356.
 
Examples of visible intervention: Mother Theresa, Ghandi, my Dad. Whenever and wherever love is present. Yes, we have an autonomy, but we come from a single source. There is a divine connection within. It is very mysterious. Feel free to disagree.
Of course I disagree. I am looking for something like trapped miners “miraculously” appearing on the surface, after a few weeks. Or manna falling from the sky to alleviate the hunger. Or a mysterious paper appearing from nowhere with the exact formula to cure cancer… etc… etc… These would be visible interventions performed by a benevolent God. Allowing Earthquakes to happen, allowing tsunamis to wantonly destroying thousands of people only point to an uncaring, indifferent God… or to no God at all.
Our judgment calls are still limited by our awareness, right? Which duck are we referring to here…🙂
Nevertheless we make judgment calls based upon incomplete information. The duck principle is very simple: "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and tastes like a duck… then it is very probably a duck and definitely NOT a crocodile in disguise. Translating to the current question: “if God looks like not interfering to feed the hungry, to heal the sick, to protect the persecuted, then the only rational conclusion is that God does not care”. You cannot try to say: “but MAYBE… that duck only LOOKS like a duck to our incomplete information, but in reality it is a crocodile in disguise”… because MAYBE does not count.

The trouble is that our base systems are so far apart that it is very hard to find even a minuscule common ground, from where we could have fruitful conversation.
 
If you think you might be wrong, I’d say your agnostic.
I am an agnostic atheist. Contrary to popular misunderstanding, “agnosticism” is NOT a “third” option. You are either a “theist” or an “atheist”.
How to have the necessary information that the creator, who is invisible to the eye, exists?
Lots of ways. I could give examples.
You say you do not reject God but the concept of God. As a christian, I find this concept fascinating, since to me God is a reality. It’s like this: I do not reject my car, I just reject the concept of my car. I’d love to understand that.
Since you KNOW that your car exists, the analogy is not correct. The concept of God for me is exactly as nonsensical as the concept of the married bachelor (or Russell’s teapot or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) is for you (and me, too).
Now you say only a believer can reject God. And as an atheist, you’re right. You cannot reject something you don’t believe in. However, as a christian who understands christian theology I can tell you for sure that YOU have rejected God, and all non-christians reject God.
Well, this is a very confusing assertion. On one hand you realize that it is a logical impossibility to reject something that one does not believe in, and on the other hand you say that according to Christian theology we can reject something we do not believe it… the conclusion is that Christian theology allows logical contradiction… and as such it must be discarded.
You must be one that is more demanding and requires more evidence. You cannot be demanding of God.
I am not demanding God to provide evidence… I demand the evidence from you, and your fellow apologists.
You can take Him or leave Him, it’s your loss if you leave him - for this life and for the next life, which you do not believe exists.
I cannot either take him or leave him. I need to know that there is someone to “take” or “leave”.
Jesus spoke about demanding evidence but you won’t accept that, of course.
You mean, the quote: “blessed are the ones who have not seen and yet they believe”? It is the ultimate cop out, and a demand that our faith must be BLIND. To believe without evidence - and that is what Jesus demands is the ultimate surrender of reason and rationality. And to add insult to injury, it was God who “imbued” us with reason, and then Jesus demands to squander this “gift”. It simply does not wash.
I’m sure you must have heard that MAYBE he left out “legend” because the 4 gospels and some of the letters were written while people of Jesus’ time were still alive.
That is simply not true. The ironic part is that as soon as someone points out a historical or scientific error in the bible, it is indignantly countered by: “but the bible is not a history book, or a scientific paper”. So what will it be? If it is inconvenient, then the bible cannot be taken literally, but if you need it as an argument, then it must be taken literally?
Well, a personal encounter with God is probably the only way you would ever come to believe. If it’s all just nonsense to you right now.
That would be nice, but I can come up with other solutions to this question.
I’m willing to go with the second. I have evidence, but you wouldn’t accept it. Open mindedness is a great thing. I’m sure you’re one of those persons who believes they have one. But do you?
According psychological testing, my scale of “openness” is off the scale. The problem is not with my willingness to accept evidence even if that evidence would DESTROY my established world view. The problem is with what is offered as “evidence”.
 
Good Morning - Paul forgot to phone me last week, so no inside scoops! Hate words! I didn’t mean that Paul didn’t forgive the people he was talking about. I meant the it wasn’t up to Paul to do the forgiving in that case but that it was up to God. They were sinning against God by not believing, they weren’t sinning against Paul.
Good Morning!

So, to understand part of the purpose of this thread, here is a core verse:

Mark 11:25 (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "

So, when we read something from Paul, or Peter, or anyone for that matter that sounds like the writer is holding something against someone, then we can either charitably rework the wording so that it does not sound that way, or we can consider Peter and Paul as human (which they were) and realize that they are just as capable of holding a grudge as the next person. Since it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to discern our own blindness, (we are blind to our blindness) it behooves us to gently point out when our comrades have been possibly blinded in some way. If I hear words of resentment, then either I am hearing incorrectly, or the speaker is a bit blind.

In any case, it is up to me to forgive those I resent. That is our calling. It would be very easy to push it off and “let God handle it”, but that doesn’t free me from the slavery of resentment, and it does not bring holiness.
I’m happy that you agree; however, you can’t state it like that then. You make it sound like God doesn’t forgive. OR I misunderstood you.
Uh oh. You better tell me the intent again because I agree with you. There’s something in your thinking, apparently, about God forgiving - but I don’t get it!
Have you ever had the experience of forgiving someone you really thought was evil? You pray for the person, ask for the gift of understanding, and eventually the resentment simply dissipates. Up to that point, we rather automatically project that God does not forgive the person. Once the negative feelings are gone, we see that God, of course, forgives too. One difference between being human and being God is that God does not have to pray for such understanding. In this view, God has forgiven “before always”.
  1. I’m a sister
  2. This quote thing is making me crazy! I can’t get used to it, but that’s my problem. I just wish that in your question you put my idea so that I didn’t have to go back and forth.
  3. I don’t know what I’m assuming!
  4. My whole belief is that a person ALWAYS knowingly and willingly rejects God. Because you can’t reject something/one you don’t know about. So if they’re rejecting God it means they know about Him and have decided to reject Him. Am I missing something? It seems so easy to me.
  1. Oops. sorry sister!🙂
  2. Sorry about the back and forth. Oh, I get it, the difficulty is in the “quote” process. I will try to put your comments more in my responses, like I did in this sentence. Thanks for pointing that out!
  3. The assumption you may be making is that we know better. That is what this thread is about. Also, what is a “sin nature”?
  4. So, if your “whole belief” is that we always knowingly and willingly reject God, you are in the right place here! We can continue with the example of the woman, and you can illustrate your point.
No way Jose’! Wish I could speak to that priest. Sounds assuming of me doesn’t it? Can I know more than a priest? Even they have their ideas, don’t they? Like this one for instance. I’d like to see him tell the Pope his idea!
This is such a basic concept that I can hardly speak about it. But here goes. I agree that an unmerciful God is not God. Must we start at the beginning and speak of grace? God gave His only begotten son. That doesn’t sound to me like an unmerciful God. I didn’t say He was.
The Pope has spoken, and so have you. God is not unmerciful. So, if a person worships a wrathful God, and in turn is overcome with his own wrath, he is far from holiness. When I am feeling angry at someone, it makes sense that God is also angry at the person. This is called projection. Projection is an illusion, but projection, and wrath, have their place in the human. It is through understanding and forgiveness that we overcome the illusion.

So, a person is better off not following a “cruel, unmerciful Jesus”. This is why televangelists need to be very careful not to give the wrong impression; the viewer may be forming an idea of Jesus that is an untruth.
What I’m saying is that many people have an incorrect perception of God. They either see Him as being mean and uncaring or there wouldn’t be evil in the world, or they see Him as pure love and just do whatever they want to and feel that he’ll forgive them anyway because a loving God certainly won’t send anymore to hell.
(is this what you’re getting at? The ignorance of people who believe?)
Our church doesn’t teach that God sends anyone to hell. Our church teaches that people choose hell. The priest that I referred to said, in his opinion the only way a person ever chooses hell is if they go screaming and kicking against God the whole way. After all, He came here, suffered, died, and forgave us while we tortured Him. He loves us that much.

A person complacent about sin is blind and ignorant, in my observation. So yes, if they think they are “getting away with something” while sinning, they don’t know what they are doing. They are unaware of the natural consequences of sin. Need examples? What I am saying is that we don’t need to depict a wrathful god for the purpose of crowd control.

God’s love and mercy are without limit.

(continued)
 
frangiuliano:
However, doctrine does not save you. This I’m sure about or we’re all headed south. What saves us is belief in Christ. If you have that belief you can then work around doctrines and ideas, etc.

For instance if I don’t believe in God, how am I ever going to be able to go be with Him?
I agree, doctrine does not save us. Repentance (change of mind) saves us. A big part of that change of mind is forgiving all those we hold something against, and a key ingredient in mature forgiveness is to understand why people sin. That is what this thread is about.
This, of course, is a very interesting question which could start a whole new thread. Too many ideas here.
  1. Are you comparing the woman to Jesus? (might have misunderstood here…)
  2. Why does the woman NOT know the value of the baby IF she is christian?
  3. Some think Jesus didn’t know what He was doing!
  4. The crowd did not see Jesus’ value. Okay. But He hadn’t resurrected yet. They were seeing a man going to the cross. So did the apostles at that point. So they were blind, you’re right. But what has that got to do with anything? A week later they were not blind anymore and we’re not blind today. Please explain.
There’s nothing more to investigate with this woman because I apparently am not understanding what you’re getting at. We can’t go there in dribs and drabs. It’ll take forever. You’re going to have to state exactly where it is that you want to go. Well, you don’t HAVE TO but only if I’m to think any further on this topic. I mean, I think you’re an intelligent person but I can’t understand what you’re getting at.
Are you saying that everyone who rejects God is doing so unkowingly? Also, you mention something about ignorance and sin. This would need further explanation too. Of course there might be some element of ignorance in sin. If there’s ignorance God does not hold you accountable. “If you were blind, you would have no sin, but since you say ‘we see’ your sin remains.” John 9:41
God bless
Lots to address there. I think it is best to finish the “investigation”, and the example will either illustrate my conclusion or prove my conclusion an error. It won’t take forever. John 9:41 is a very confusing verse, check posts 25,32, and 36 on this thread for some analysis.

I was comparing the woman to the crowd that hung Jesus. The child, of course, is the victim, as Jesus was.

You bring up an excellent question, the Spirit guides us to these:

“Why does the woman NOT know the value of the baby IF she is christian”

What is your answer? Why does she not know?

Thanks for your response!🙂
 
I am an agnostic atheist. Contrary to popular misunderstanding, “agnosticism” is NOT a “third” option. You are either a “theist” or an “atheist”.
I can live with that.

Philosophically speaking :eek:
The intervention of God on planet earth is the difference in kind between animal species and human species. I do not want to influence you (LOL) so I hope you, on your own, will search out possible differences and/or similarities between any animal species and the species we see when we look at a mirror. Seeing the “evil queen” is not an option.

This statement is accurate. The problem is with what is offered as “evidence”.
 
Good Morning!

So, to understand part of the purpose of this thread, here is a core verse:

Mark 11:25 (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "

So, when we read something from Paul, or Peter, or anyone for that matter that sounds like the writer is holding something against someone, then we can either charitably rework the wording so that it does not sound that way, or we can consider Peter and Paul as human (which they were) and realize that they are just as capable of holding a grudge as the next person. Since it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to discern our own blindness, (we are blind to our blindness) it behooves us to gently point out when our comrades have been possibly blinded in some way. If I hear words of resentment, then either I am hearing incorrectly, or the speaker is a bit blind.

In any case, it is up to me to forgive those I resent. That is our calling. It would be very easy to push it off and “let God handle it”, but that doesn’t free me from the slavery of resentment, and it does not bring holiness.
I’m happy to know that your familiar with all of the above ideas. “Take the log out of your eye before you complain about the splinter in your neighbor’s eye” (I’m not going to look up scripture for perfect wording - it would take too long, but I believe you know enough).
So, yes, we are blind to our own blindness. But as you grow in holiness you begin to see more and more that you cannot be a slave to sin and not forgiving someone makes you a slave to those feelings you speak of, one of which is resentment.
Have you ever had the experience of forgiving someone you really thought was evil? You pray for the person, ask for the gift of understanding, and eventually the resentment simply dissipates. Up to that point, we rather automatically project that God does not forgive the person. Once the negative feelings are gone, we see that God, of course, forgives too. One difference between being human and being God is that God does not have to pray for such understanding. In this view, God has forgiven “before always”.
I don’t agree with above. Yes, I’ve had your stated experience. I don’t project that God doesn’t forgive that person. It could be that I think he’s evil and if he really is evil and far from God, well, he’s lost. If he’s “evil” because he hasn’t come to a full understanding of what God wants of him, then he’s saved and on the road to sanctification.

I don’t see things like you do; God forgiving or not forgiving. I see it as one being saved or one being lost. There is only one unpardonable sin: The rejection of the Holy Spirit, or, unbelief in God.

Did you ever hear this? “Man forgives - God forgets”. When man forgives, he’ll always remember the hurt the action may have caused. When God forgives, He also forgets.

And yes, God has forgiven before time because God is infinite and outside of time.
  1. Oops. sorry sister!🙂
  2. Sorry about the back and forth. Oh, I get it, the difficulty is in the “quote” process. I will try to put your comments more in my responses, like I did in this sentence. Thanks for pointing that out!
  3. The assumption you may be making is that we know better. That is what this thread is about. Also, what is a “sin nature”?
  4. So, if your “whole belief” is that we always knowingly and willingly reject God, you are in the right place here! We can continue with the example of the woman, and you can illustrate your point.
No. 3: Sometime we could know better but sin anyway due to the sin nature.
Sin Nature, concupisensce, SIN (not sins) - it’s all the same thing. You must know about this but I might have used an expression you’re not familiar with. It’s just words, after all.
Sin Nature: Adam and Eve ate the forbiden fruit, this is original sin. Baptism removes original sin but the effects of it remain. We now have a damged nature. We are inclined to sin - this is the sin nature. The book of Romans: What I want to do, I do not do; what I do not want to do, I do. (my favorite book).

Of course, God’s grace helps us not to sin.

No. 4: The woman. We had said something about a convenience abortin and understanding that the child was a gift. I have to start over; can’t remember what I said and can’t go back-it takes too long.

If the woman is doing this for her convenience, then she does not understand that children are a gift. If she understood that they are, she would accept the child and make whatever sacrifice necessary to raise and love the child.

Whether or not she accepts that the child is a gift is irrelevant to her choice to sin. This is complicated. If she is really a christian she understands that it’s a gift and if she goes through with it because she wants to keep her job, then it’s a sin.

If she’s really a christian and does not understand that the child is a gift, she’s still doing it not to lose her job and she’s still sinning. Whether or not she feels the child is a gift, she’d still be sinning. It’s 2015 and today we know the baby is “a human” at conception.

Let’s go back 30 yrs. IF it’s possible to really believe that this “thing” inside you is not human and you go ahead and abort, I really think that if you are christian God will forgive you. BUT, if you realize that you sinned at some point, you are required to confess.

cont’d
 
TWO
The Pope has spoken, and so have you. God is not unmerciful. So, if a person worships a wrathful God, and in turn is overcome with his own wrath, he is far from holiness. When I am feeling angry at someone, it makes sense that God is also angry at the person. This is called projection. Projection is an illusion, but projection, and wrath, have their place in the human. It is through understanding and forgiveness that we overcome the illusion.
So, a person is better off not following a “cruel, unmerciful Jesus”. This is why televangelists need to be very careful not to give the wrong impression; the viewer may be forming an idea of Jesus that is an untruth.
Yeah. You seem to have some kind of problem with projection. You’ve mentined it a few times. Just because I’m mad at someone, I don’t feel that God is mad at them. If they’re evil I may feel they’re not saved, and then, yes, God can be upset - as I think He is with unsaved people. Maybe more sorry than upset - maybe it would depend on how much they break His rules, how much misery they cause. I never thought of this but I do know that God, in the person of Jesus, was sad and mad.

Now I know that wrath can be a good thing, which I think I must have mentioned, but I don’t undertand how projection can be a good thing. Just off the top of my head, I’d have to agree that projection is an illusion but I’ve never thought of it. Understanding and forgiveness overcome illusion. Will have to think a bout that for a little minute too. You might save me some brain power and explain.

If a person is listening to those televangelists you mention, they’ll know that God is not cruel and unmerciful. In fact, the Word of Faith movement goes so far as to say that God will pretty much give you whatever you ask, since you’ve already received it, but that’s a whole different thread.

I still maintain that it’s better to accept an incorrect version of Jesus than not to accept Him at all. It goes back again to being saved or not being saved.
Our church doesn’t teach that God sends anyone to hell. Our church teaches that people choose hell. The priest that I referred to said, in his opinion the only way a person ever chooses hell is if they go screaming and kicking against God the whole way. After all, He came here, suffered, died, and forgave us while we tortured Him. He loves us that much.
A person complacent about sin is blind and ignorant, in my observation. So yes, if they think they are “getting away with something” while sinning, they don’t know what they are doing. They are unaware of the natural consequences of sin. Need examples? What I am saying is that we don’t need to depict a wrathful god for the purpose of crowd control.
God’s love and mercy are without limit.
(continued)
Okay. If you state what the priest said in this way it’s totally different. BTW, I know what our church teaches. In this sense I would agree. God does all He can to make people know Him so that they could be saved (and not go to hell) but some fight Him all the way. And if they’ve fought Him to the very end they will be lost, for the very reasons you state.

I agree with you re a person being complacent about sin being blind and ignorant. But they don’t believe in God then, right? If they did they would understand what God has done for them and they wouldn’t be complacent! They might still sin (sin nature) but they wouldn’t be complacent about it if they were a mature christian. If they are a mature christian they can’t possibly think they are getting away with something, as you say. They must know God is omnipresent, no??

Yes, no need to depict God as wrathful for crowd control. In fact, this goes back rather to the Mosaic Covenant or The Law and love, or the New Covenant works so much better!

I don’t need examples, but if a person is unaware of the natural consequences of sin there are 3 possibilities:
  1. They are not a believer/have faith/are christian/are born again - take your pick
  2. They haven’t been taught from their church (very likely!)
  3. They simply have never had this thought process due to ignorance or any number of reasons.
cont’d
 
THREE

“A key ingredient in mature forgiveness is to understand why people sin”

(have lost those quote things)

By the above do you mean something that goes beyond the sin nature? People sin because of the sin nature. It’s not that simple to you?

John 9:41 seems cut and dry to me. Will have to think about this a bit. Will check posts you suggest tomorrow morning.

Interesting about comparing the woman to the crowd. The child to Jesus.
That’s easy: We are all putting Jesus on that cross.

I think I explained about the woman back on the first page. Will have to reread tomorrow morning.

Hope you had a nice cup of coffee while reading this! Maybe we could turn this into a book. 🙂
 
From a homily at St.Peter’s Basilica, by Fr. Raniero Cantalmessa:

Yet God’s measure of justice is different from ours and if he sees good faith or blameless ignorance he saves even those who had been anxious to fight him in their lives. We believers should prepare ourselves for surprises in this regard.

vatican.va/liturgical_year/holy-week/2009/documents/holy-week_homily-fr-cantalamessa_20090410_en.html

However, has any person been “anxious to fight him” knowingly and willingly? I am looking for an example of this. Ignorance is a huge, if not essential, part of human sin. Can such ignorance be understood and forgiven, or are there instances when a person can indeed be condemned?

Note: I am using “knowingly and willingly” in the broadest sense, i.e. those who crucified Jesus did not do so knowingly and willingly. They “willed” it in terms of choice, but their choice was in ignorance (and in this case, the ignorance was held blameless).

Feel free to make an assertion in your answer, but please provide an example.

Thanks!
Jesus seemed to be more upset with the Pharisees than the sinners. After the Pharisees had said that Jesus drove out devils by the devil, Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The Church seems to interpret this act as an unwillingness to receive forgiveness. This would imply a complete rejection of God and his mercy.

The Pharisees in rejecting the Holy Spirit were perhaps preferring their own version of God made in their image rather than the one true God.
 
Welcome, Ron Conte, and thank you for your reply.

I find these lines in John a bit confusing, and I have always wondered if there was something lost in translation. For example, is Jesus saying that because the Pharisees say that they can see, that such fact is established? Indeed, if a person knows that they are blind, then they know the truth, and if they were behaving contrary to the truth, then is that not sin?

v. 39 does help with some context:

39 Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

I think that Jesus is using “those who see” in terms of “those who consider themselves righteous”. So it would make sense for the translation to have Jesus saying: “if you realized you were blind, then you would be without sin, but because you still consider yourselves righteous, the sin remains.”

Do you see the issues with those verses? The Pharisees were blind, and their sin was in condemning Jesus as well as the person He healed.

So, this is exactly what I’m looking for, and I would like to see the presentation of a theoretical example (no names necessary, of course). Can you give an example of willful and culpable ignorance? Make up a scenario, and we can investigate.

So, while we are doing this, keep in mind that this exercise should have not effect on accountability. All of us are to be responsible for our actions, whether done in ignorance or not. In addition, consequences in the arena of society are not to be lessened according to how well we understand or forgive the sinner. Can we agree on that? An objective human judge does not let his emotions change his sentence decision.

Thanks, and God’s peace.🙂
FOR ONE SHEEP

We’re back.

I looked up the posts. Post 25:

You state your pp one perfectly. Nothing to say. You’re correct as far as the church and christianity go. Of course Jesus knew the Pharisees were blind! No question there. How is John 9:41 confusing to you? It sounds so cut and dry. Your reasoning is right on all counts.

Your right in how you understand “those who see”… The translation could have been as you say - it would have had the same meaning. Don’t see the issue with these versus. Maytbe you’re projecting!!

HOW can ignorance be willful and knowledgable and culpable? I said back when that if you are truly ignorant of a sin, God does not hold you reponsible as a judge in court would. He’s not a judge in a court, as you well know. That’s why children are not responsible for their sins till the age of reason.

I don’t know how this experiment of yours can work.

On to post no. 32.
 
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