Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[grannymh]

A quote from Pope Francis:

“Our hearts can be attached to true or false treasures, they can find genuine rest or they can simply slumber, becoming lazy and lethargic. The greatest good we can have in life is our relationship with God. Are you convinced of this? Do you realize how much you are worth in the eyes of God? Do you know that you are loved and welcomed by him unconditionally, as indeed you are? Once we lose our sense of this, we human beings become an incomprehensible enigma, for it is the knowledge that we are loved unconditionally by God which gives meaning to our lives.”

— Message for the 30th World Youth Day, Feb. 17, 2015

Wonderful, wonderful quote.
YES to these blue words "it is the knowledge that we are loved unconditionally by God which gives meaning to our lives.” True, true.

Now we need a complete explanation for those blue words “false treasures.” And another complete explanation for those blue words “or they can simply slumber, becoming lazy and lethargic.”

Red flag alert.

Whose “hearts can be attached to true or false treasures?” How does Pope Francis answer that important question? He says “Our hearts."

Oh.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Good Morning frangiuliano! (is just “fran” okay?)

I am going to try to be as brief as possible, pare things down a bit. I hope that is okay.

I usually find that the very thing I am condemning in someone else, I am myself doing. The “log” verse is insightful and a great means of understanding.

Hello OneSheep,
Fran is fine. Your name reminds me of an old Mad magazone coer. Two drawings. Top and Bottom. Top: One black sheep standing in the middle of all white sheep and looking rather worried.
Bottom: One white sheep standing in the middle of all black sheep and looking rather worried.

Now on to business.

I think I may need to clarify projection. For example, I tell you that a man walks out into a stadium and the whole crowd present stands up and cheers. I ask you, “how does the man feel?”. Your first reaction will be one of “how I would feel in the same situation”. Your answer might be “elated!”. In reality, the person could feel frightened, guilty, even angry, we have no idea. We can indeed try to avoid projection, and it can be helpful to do that, but even our alternatives are based on our own past experiences. This is the same way people think about God. You must have already encountered this with other people on the CAF. It is easier to see in others than to see it in ourselves. Bottom line: God is infinitely loving and merciful, regardless of our projections.

Likethe stadium example. Very good. I’m human and project. I don’t think I’ve ever projected my feelings on to God. 99% sure. Ah. I see. Maybe. God is infinetely loving and merciful - even though we think He might be mad at us, He’s not. Right! Christian teaching: You don’t go by your feeling but by what you KNOW.

So, the last question was “How does she not know the value of the child if she is Christian?”.

Well, I think I kind of see an answer in your post. Remember, the question of the thread. “Sin” can have several meanings in everyday vernacular, such as “sin is doing something hurtful, whether we meant to or not.”

I find it difficult to use the word sin other than to mean sin. Doing something hurtful can be a sin and it cannot be a sin. Depends on different factors.

There are two options, in my observation:

1. She is really, truly unknowing of the value of the child. She is ignorant.
2. She is blind. Desire, resentment, and fear blind us.

Are you saying she is not sinning in either case?

But your question is about willfully rejecting God. Rejecting God and sinning is different!

Search your own life, Fran. Blindness is an automatic response. Have you ever been blinded by one of these and behaved in a way that seems irrational or hurtful? Yet, we resist understanding our blindness because we feel guilty and do not want to “make excuses” for ourselves. So for our purposes, let us remain dedicated to not relieving any consequence, regardless of our understanding. We do not want the compulsion to avoid “making excuses” to be a roadblock to understanding.

The answer to your question is Yes. Who hasn’t if they’re living on this planet? The closer you get to God, though, the more you realize it’s happening and try to stop it. I’m not sure about the guilty idea - I feel like I don’t have any road blocks in that sense but I’m not sure.

And, as you astutely pointed out, we are blind to our blindness. Once the fear, desire, and resentment are gone, I realize I was blind… someone could also point out my blindness to me.

Well, it’s like you have to BELIEVE in order to SEE. You can’t see with all these feelings getting in the way. These feelings can be reduced though by understanding how fragile man is and how lost.

The mother with the “unwanted” child fears her future, and resents her poor choice to have sex. In the case of rape, the resentment is even greater. To clear up the blindness, we have to address the fear and the resentment. Crisis pregnancy counseling is very little about “you are wrong about the life of the child”, it is more about “this is how we can help you address your fears, and save a life.”

So, what do you think, has the woman Knowingly and Willingly rejected God? If you think she has, explain, and we can investigate.

Okay. So now the child is unwanted. Fine. Agree on the counceling technique.

You’re not giving me the information I need, so I’ll put forth my own scenario:

Has The Woman Knowingly and Willingly Rejected God?

1. She is going to have an unwanted child.
2. She has fear and resentment.
3. We won’t even dicuss what brought her to this situation!
4. The fear and resentment is causing blindness.
5. We want to address and calm her fears.
6. We want to save the baby’s life.
7. She is a christian
8. She is familiar with christian ideals

If the baby is not saved she has rejected God.
If the baby is saved she has rejected God.

Okay, I will save you the trouble. Projection is a very important part of empathy

How is projection a part of empathy?

Projection: I project my feelings onto another person…
Empathy: The other person’s feelings are being projected on to me. Almost literally.

A person who believes that God is cruel and unmerciful is going to have a very warped view of the “perfection” that we are called to. He will still remain a slave to his resentment. Check the comments in blue on post 42 for clarification.

We are to “be perfect, as our heavenly Father is perfect.”

I’ll get to the rest of the series in my next post.

cont’d

 

[frangiuliano115]

Have read post no. 42.

Will have to wait till tomorrow.

The idea is interesting; I have thought of it. Wouldn’t recognize it as perfection but as how to live life as God would want, or a more “divine” life. The perfection idea would go to secular utopianism or utopian secularism, can’t remember, and the catholic church, at least, doesn’t believe in that. And neither do I.

Too many scriptures to check out.
Will also get back to you re John.

God bless

 

[grannymh]

“Do not forget that true love sets no conditions; it does not calculate or complain but simply loves.” - Pope John Paul II popequotes.org/

I wish more humans would pay attention to that quote and love God with true love – without trying to change or lessen the Divinity of Jesus on His Cross to fit their own preferred conditions.
I hope you understand.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

"Do not forget that true love sets no conditions

Very strange. Am I the only one who sees the precondition in John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Why can’t everyone have an “everlasting” life without believing in God? Why can’t they have this everlasting life according to their own preferences? And what about that “perish” thingie? The opposite of heaven is not supposed to be a simple “perishing”, rather everlasting “life” with everlasting “torture”. Sorry, but I simply don’t get it.

 

[davidv]

Very strange. Am I the only one who sees the precondition in John 3:16

Why can’t everyone have an “everlasting” life without believing in God?

What do you think everlasting life means in this context?

Why can’t they have this everlasting life according to their own preferences?

A clear understanding of human nature, as intended, would reveal the answer to this.

And what about that “perish” thingie? The opposite of heaven is not supposed to be a simple “perishing”, rather everlasting “life” with everlasting “torture”. Sorry, but I simply don’t get it.

Clearly.

 

[grannymh]

Very strange. Am I the only one who sees the precondition in John 3:16

Why can’t everyone have an “everlasting” life without believing in God? Why can’t they have this everlasting life according to their own preferences? And what about that “perish” thingie? The opposite of heaven is not supposed to be a simple “perishing”, rather everlasting “life” with everlasting “torture”. Sorry, but I simply don’t get it.

When we look way way back in our human history, we find that there is a sense of the super-natural inherent in our human nature. Super-natural in the sense that there is something out there which is beyond us, which transcends us, which is “super” or above our own decomposing anatomy.

Perhaps, the precondition of believing in God is simply that we recognize that there is something greater than ourselves. Because we see ourselves as persons, we intuitively decide that this supernatural something we sense is a super-person. As our curiosity intensifies, we can reason that if we have both life and death, whatever is beyond us must have life over death. However, there is “death” as a detail in some of the ancient legends. Still, our ancient ancestors did not cease looking for that elusive super-life.

Yes, this all sounds like that it is humans who created God. I have to smile at that because it is humans who discovered God and had to create descriptions of someone who is beyond human nature.

I am not seeking to convert you on the spot. I am not good at apologetics in that regard. I am hoping that you can understand what I understand. In theatre, there is the “willing suspension of disbelief.” If you are willing to suspend your feelings about the topic of the natural seeking the super-natural, there is the chance we could develop an interesting discussion.

Because the topic of this thread is the rejection of God, we might as well imagine how this idea of God came to be.

What say you?

 

[frangiuliano115]

Very strange. Am I the only one who sees the precondition in John 3:16

Why can’t everyone have an “everlasting” life without believing in God? Why can’t they have this everlasting life according to their own preferences? And what about that “perish” thingie? The opposite of heaven is not supposed to be a simple “perishing”, rather everlasting “life” with everlasting “torture”. Sorry, but I simply don’t get it.

My dear Pallas Athene,

I haven’t forgotten you and will eventually reply to your post.

Just quick:

No one here has missed the presupposition.

How dumb to you think we christians are, anyway???

Wish I had more time…

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

:

Jesus often referred to mortal sin. For example, He referred to the state of mortal sin symbolically as being without a wedding garment. Without the state of the wedding garment, the man could not enter the feast. (Matthew 22:8-14)

Hello grannymh,

Hope I don’t make any mistakes in my grammar.

I don’t have a lot of time and wish I could answer to all the posts that bring up interesting questions.

Like the above. The Wedding Banquet.

One of the most asked questions in bible study is: What does it mean that he wasn’t wearing the right clothing?"

Quick answer: Mortal sin.

But think about it. Clothing covers us. He wasn’t wearing the RIGHT clothing. Does mortal sin cover us? Is anyone who doesn’t have mortal sin on their soul going to enter to join the wedding banquet? What DOES cover us?

God bless you

 

[Pallas_Athene]

No one here has missed the presupposition.

You mean precondition. So God does not “love” us unconditionally?

Granny was so kind and quoted for our edification:

“Do not forget that true love sets no conditions; it does not calculate or complain but simply loves.” - Pope John Paul II

Since God posits a precondition in John 3:16, his love is not “true” love. Which is obvious, since “true” love would never condemn someone to eternal suffering. Another minor observation: JPII forgot to add: “love must manifest itself in actions, otherwise it is just an empty word”. And no matter how hard I try to discover God’s benevolent actions, I fail to find them. Not one hungry child has been fed by God, not one child has been healed by God… all the hungry and sick people are fed and healed by other humans, according to their feeble capabilities. And when their capabilities prove to be insufficient, then God could step in and fill up the gap. But he does not.

How dumb to you think we christians are, anyway???

That is a loaded question. The answer is: “there are many smart Christians, and there are many idiotic ones… just like atheists”. No one has “first dibs” on stupidity.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

When we look way way back in our human history, we find that there is a sense of the super-natural inherent in our human nature. Super-natural in the sense that there is something out there which is beyond us, which transcends us, which is “super” or above our own decomposing anatomy.

Perhaps, the precondition of believing in God is simply that we recognize that there is something greater than ourselves.

Lots of things are “greater” than us. And none of them are “super-natural”. Moreover we do not need to “believe” that those greater things exist, we KNOW that they do. “Belief” is always inferior to “knowing”. This is why the often used biblical quote: “blessed are the ones who have not see and yet they believe” sounds like the ultimate cop-out.

Yes, this all sounds like that it is humans who created God.

Of course it does. Some kind of rituals were in use since the stone age - eons before the Christian God allegedly manifested himself. It is strange that Yahweh only manifested himself to a small, insignificant tribe in the Middle East, and bypassed the huge and extremely developed Chinese empire. It is also strange that God never manifests himself in our day and age, when those manifestations could be widely recorded.

Because the topic of this thread is the rejection of God, we might as well imagine how this idea of God came to be.

What say you?

The obvious procedure was the human desire to explain their surroundings. Seeing all the “inexplicable” events (and pretty much everything was inexplicable in the beginning) they invented all sorts of “gods”. These gods were all pretty “malevolent”, so the primitive humans invented ways and means to placate and appease them. Sometimes it “worked”, most other times it did not. Typical human fashion, the positive outcomes were used as “reinforcement” of the beliefs, while the negative ones were swept under the rug, by saying that the shamans made a mistake in offering the sacrifice… or something equally inane. The same principle is still in use. Prayers allegedly are “answered”, and when they seem to be “answered” in a positive fashion, God is always praised for his benevolence… but when the “answer” is negative, then the supplicant made an incorrect request… nothing new under the Sun.

 

[grannymh]

Lots of things are “greater” than us. And none of them are “super-natural”. Moreover we do not need to “believe” that those greater things exist, we KNOW that they do. “Belief” is always inferior to “knowing”. This is why the often used biblical quote: “blessed are the ones who have not see and yet they believe” sounds like the ultimate cop-out.

Of course it does. Some kind of rituals were in use since the stone age - eons before the Christian God allegedly manifested himself. It is strange that Yahweh only manifested himself to a small, insignificant tribe in the Middle East, and bypassed the huge and extremely developed Chinese empire. It is also strange that God never manifests himself in our day and age, when those manifestations could be widely recorded.

The obvious procedure was the human desire to explain their surroundings. Seeing all the “inexplicable” events (and pretty much everything was inexplicable in the beginning) they invented all sorts of “gods”. These gods were all pretty “malevolent”, so the primitive humans invented ways and means to placate and appease them. Sometimes it “worked”, most other times it did not. Typical human fashion, the positive outcomes were used as “reinforcement” of the beliefs, while the negative ones were swept under the rug, by saying that the shamans made a mistake in offering the sacrifice… or something equally inane. The same principle is still in use. Prayers allegedly are “answered”, and when they seem to be “answered” in a positive fashion, God is always praised for his benevolence… but when the “answer” is negative, then the supplicant made an incorrect request… nothing new under the Sun.

Please accept my apology. My time is up and I need to pay attention to my traveling.

I have been working on the concept of an inherent sense of the super-natural for some time. The malevolent ancient gods do present a problem which can easily be resolved once one includes that the inherent sense of the super-natural does not always present the truth. An explanation for the environment is also easy to understand. However, what I find interesting is that since the ancient humans could not control the environment and their pride would not allow them to omit failure, the solution was to designate super-natural forces (Greek or Roman gods). Super meaning beyond normal human activities.

I recently started studying why Yahweh only manifested Himself to a small, insignificant tribe in the Middle East. To me, that can be part of the approach used at the beginning of humankind in Genesis 1: 27. The author is certainly aware of the Hebrew nation; yet, he does not refer to them when he gets into the human side in creation. Even though history considers the Hebrew tribe insignificant, that does not account for the Genesis author’s pride in his own people. I have to ask myself, What information does the Genesis author have in his hip pocket?

Bottom line. There is no way I have time to properly discuss your excellent post. There are so many good points to discuss. Please accept my apology for the delay.

 

[simpleas]

From a homily at St.Peter’s Basilica, by Fr. Raniero Cantalmessa:

Yet God’s measure of justice is different from ours and if he sees good faith or blameless ignorance he saves even those who had been anxious to fight him in their lives. We believers should prepare ourselves for surprises in this regard.

vatican.va/liturgical_year/holy-week/2009/documents/holy-week_homily-fr-cantalamessa_20090410_en.html

However, has any person been “anxious to fight him” knowingly and willingly? I am looking for an example of this. Ignorance is a huge, if not essential, part of human sin. Can such ignorance be understood and forgiven, or are there instances when a person can indeed be condemned?

Note: I am using “knowingly and willingly” in the broadest sense, i.e. those who crucified Jesus did not do so knowingly and willingly. They “willed” it in terms of choice, but their choice was in ignorance (and in this case, the ignorance was held blameless).

Feel free to make an assertion in your answer, but please provide an example.

Thanks!

:twocents:

I don’t think any person has been anxious to fight God K&W. I mean, how can you fight something you can not see? Maybe satan? But he is not a human.

No person can be condemned by another person. No human has authority over us, if we believe in a higher power, it is that higher power that has authority to do as it wishes.

We always judge people by whatever sin they commit, we see only the surface, we do not see into a soul, so I don’t believe there could ever be a example of someone K&W rejecting God. Maybe you have one?

 

[Aloysium]

Lots of things are “greater” than us. And none of them are “super-natural”. Moreover we do not need to “believe” that those greater things exist, we KNOW that they do. “Belief” is always inferior to “knowing”. This is why the often used biblical quote: “blessed are the ones who have not see and yet they believe” sounds like the ultimate cop-out. . . . Of course it does. . .

I know God exists, as I know I exist.
I have believed in Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity.

For a number of years, I have believed in the Catholic Church. While I have pretty much always prayed and tried to be charitable, it is through the Church’s teachings, the Eucharist, and participation in the mass, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, that I have come to know Jesus as the Way. It is as plainly visible as the sun outside.

In believing, one formulates plausible explanations, this allows one to come to know the truths which underlie the concepts, ideas, mythologies, histories, and rituals of religion.

We are each small and insignificant, yet irreplaceable and unique, of infinite value.
God had to chose some family, some culture into which He would enter man-and-God.
That it was not some glorious culture by mere earthly standards is in keeping with the message of humility and love.

People in general do not go to religion for practical information.
Religion provides insight into mysteries.
One may intellectually do away with one’s own existence, but for most of us, it is pretty amazing to exist; there are no explanations, just wonder.
This religion “thingie” is the key to all the AWESOMENESS!

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Please accept my apology. My time is up and I need to pay attention to my traveling.

I have been working on the concept of an inherent sense of the super-natural for some time. The malevolent ancient gods do present a problem which can easily be resolved once one includes that the inherent sense of the super-natural does not always present the truth. An explanation for the environment is also easy to understand. However, what I find interesting is that since the ancient humans could not control the environment and their pride would not allow them to omit failure, the solution was to designate super-natural forces (Greek or Roman gods). Super meaning beyond normal human activities.

I recently started studying why Yahweh only manifested Himself to a small, insignificant tribe in the Middle East. To me, that can be part of the approach used at the beginning of humankind in Genesis 1: 27. The author is certainly aware of the Hebrew nation; yet, he does not refer to them when he gets into the human side in creation. Even though history considers the Hebrew tribe insignificant, that does not account for the Genesis author’s pride in his own people. I have to ask myself, What information does the Genesis author have in his hip pocket?

Bottom line. There is no way I have time to properly discuss your excellent post. There are so many good points to discuss. Please accept my apology for the delay.

Thank you. Whenever you have time and inclination, I will be happy to read your posts. No need for apologize for the delay. This is not a race…

 

[Pallas_Athene]

God had to chose some family, some culture into which He would enter man-and-God.

Had to? Who “forced” God to choose?

I keep reading that God “wants” everyone to be saved. (“Saved” from what? His own wrath?) If he “wants” it, he does not “want” it very much. If he really wanted it, he would made sure that everyone has a clear picture of what the choices are, and what the requirements are. Everyone, personally (if necessary) would have their own revelation. Why should we rely on a make-believe story written by unknown people thousands of years ago? Why is the story loaded with scientific and historical nonsense and inconsistencies?

If you would want your child to succeed in life, the bare minimum would be that you provide all the necessary assistance for him to succeed. Information, first of all. Physical assistance, if necessary. Not solve his problems for him, but provide what is needed for him to solve his problems. That is what a “loving” and “caring” father would do.

I read once that the worst enemy of Christianity is the Christians themselves… Whoever came up with it, had a valid point… in my opinion, of course

 

[Aloysium]

Had to? Who “forced” God to choose? . . .

God became one of us; we have families and societies. God is rational.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I know God exists, as I know I exist.
I have believed in Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity.

For a number of years, I have believed in the Catholic Church. While I have pretty much always prayed and tried to be charitable, it is through the Church’s teachings, the Eucharist, and participation in the mass, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, that I have come to know Jesus as the Way. It is as plainly visible as the sun outside.

In believing, one formulates plausible explanations, this allows one to come to know the truths which underlie the concepts, ideas, mythologies, histories, and rituals of religion.

We are each small and insignificant, yet irreplaceable and unique, of infinite value.
God had to chose some family, some culture into which He would enter man-and-God.
That it was not some glorious culture by mere earthly standards is in keeping with the message of humility and love.

People in general do not go to religion for practical information.
Religion provides insight into mysteries.
One may intellectually do away with one’s own existence, but for most of us, it is pretty amazing to exist; there are no explanations, just wonder.
This religion “thingie” is the key to all the AWESOMENESS!

BEAUTIFUL!!

Welcome Home Aloysium.

Christianity is the ticket!

Buddha never said he was God.

God bless you

 

[frangiuliano115]

You mean precondition. So God does not “love” us unconditionally?

Granny was so kind and quoted for our edification:

Since God posits a precondition in John 3:16, his love is not “true” love. Which is obvious, since “true” love would never condemn someone to eternal suffering. Another minor observation: JPII forgot to add: “love must manifest itself in actions, otherwise it is just an empty word”. And no matter how hard I try to discover God’s benevolent actions, I fail to find them. Not one hungry child has been fed by God, not one child has been healed by God… all the hungry and sick people are fed and healed by other humans, according to their feeble capabilities. And when their capabilities prove to be insufficient, then God could step in and fill up the gap. But he does not.

That is a loaded question. The answer is: “there are many smart Christians, and there are many idiotic ones… just like atheists”. No one has “first dibs” on stupidity.

Well, I almost missed your post. That would have been sad.

I’m glad you think there are some smart christians. Wonder which category I fall into? I do believe you put me in the second category on a different thread. Sometimes we “project”, as One Sheep would say.

Fear not if I get a word wrong - I do know all my concepts really well however.

The unconditional quote was from a Pope and taken out of context. Who knows what he meant? I like to stick to the bible. That nonsensical book written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Re love. Please stop putting our human attributes onto God. I think He’s slightly above that - having created the whole universe.

Many hungry children have been fed by God. I mean, do you want Him to personally come down here and spoon feed a child in Africa? How silly of you. Did you know that Catholic and chistian organizations do more THAN ANY OTHER CHARITY to alleviate suffering in the world? No. You’re waiting for God to personally do this. Do you know the joke about the flooded town and the guy waiting to be rescued on his roof? Find out about it. This will answer your question. How many hungry children have YOU fed today?

Come on, is that the best you can do? Choose your questions wisely, for this thread will not go on forever.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Lots of things are “greater” than us. And none of them are “super-natural”. Moreover we do not need to “believe” that those greater things exist, we KNOW that they do. “Belief” is always inferior to “knowing”. This is why the often used biblical quote: “blessed are the ones who have not see and yet they believe” sounds like the ultimate cop-out.

Of course it does. Some kind of rituals were in use since the stone age - eons before the Christian God allegedly manifested himself. It is strange that Yahweh only manifested himself to a small, insignificant tribe in the Middle East, and bypassed the huge and extremely developed Chinese empire. It is also strange that God never manifests himself in our day and age, when those manifestations could be widely recorded.

The obvious procedure was the human desire to explain their surroundings. Seeing all the “inexplicable” events (and pretty much everything was inexplicable in the beginning) they invented all sorts of “gods”. These gods were all pretty “malevolent”, so the primitive humans invented ways and means to placate and appease them. Sometimes it “worked”, most other times it did not. Typical human fashion, the positive outcomes were used as “reinforcement” of the beliefs, while the negative ones were swept under the rug, by saying that the shamans made a mistake in offering the sacrifice… or something equally inane. The same principle is still in use. Prayers allegedly are “answered”, and when they seem to be “answered” in a positive fashion, God is always praised for his benevolence… but when the “answer” is negative, then the supplicant made an incorrect request… nothing new under the Sun.

Just to clarify. Do you know the meaning of supernatural? You KNOW that these supernatural things exist. What the heck are they?

You say belief is inferior to knowing. Interesting concept. But, of course, it’s because you don’t know christianity. I think you must know that the New Testament was written in Greek. I did comment on your name once way back when. In greek, knowing and believing is used simultaneously; to know is to believe - to believe is to know. You can check it out. To believe in God does not mean to believe that He exists, it means much more.

How do you know God doesn’t manifest Himself today? Maybe He does but you just don’t see it. I have. You must believe to see.

Won’t comment on the insignificant tribe in the middle east - of which YOU are speaking of to me in the year 2015. We’re not speaking much about the Chinese Empire. Funny.

Your last paragraph is too simple and does not merit answering. I’ll only say that all the other gods are gone but God is still here.